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Sox/Yanks - Page 2

post #31 of 71
Thread Starter 
startin' to wish gonz were a yankee fan.
post #32 of 71
Ryan, If the Dead Sox have better hitting and better pitching, why is it then they're still 3 games behind the Bombers?

The way I see it the Sox have two chances of winning the pennent, "slim and none"
post #33 of 71
Thread Starter 
Ryan, If the Dead Sox have better hitting and better pitching, why is it then they're still 3 games behind the Bombers?

1) it was 10.5 (if the yankees are better, what happened to the them between then and now?)
2) season ain't over.


The way I see it the Sox have two chances of winning the pennent, "slim and none"

yes. got that awhile back.

post #34 of 71
Thread Starter 
we don't really know who's better right now (though we all have our opinions). yankees have the best record, sox have a better record against the yankees, and there are several other teams who will have to be contended with.

we'll know who's The Best after the last out of the world series.

until then, you have teams hoping to reach the playoffs playing the best ball at that time. for doubts about that, see last year's wild card and world series-winning florida marlins.

(st.louis card's have won 98 games. best in baseball. i expect them to exit the playoffs early-like.)

until it's said and done, we're all just gumflappers.

see youz guys at fenway dis weekend.

(edit: another reason the yankees are in the driver's seat is mariano rivera.)
post #35 of 71
Wish I had more time to comment, but I'm getting ready to watch Ferrari win at Shanghai. Mariners had fun with the Angels last night.
post #36 of 71
Thread Starter 
Get Fuzzy

post #37 of 71
Have to wonder if lining up pitching rotations for the playoffs will impact your little wager....
post #38 of 71
Thread Starter 

fakkin' orioles

well, that little wager is pretty much all that's left to watch for now after last night, with the sox losing to baltimore and the yankees winning and clinching a playoff spot.

yankees beat up on baltimore over the season, winning something like 14 of the 19 games they played. while the sox are 6-9 against them, with a few more still to play against them.


NY Times

September 24, 2004

A Myth That Should Not Be Perpetuated


F course, of course, the Boston Red Sox might be haunted. How else do you explain a franchise with such serial disasters?

However - and this is a gigantic however - we must all take a new look at why Harry Frazee has been such a scapegoat for decades. It is not a pretty story.

The alligators-in-the-sewers legend is that Frazee, who owned the Red Sox, sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees after the 1919 season to finance a new show called "No, No, Nanette."

Only in the past few years has it been drummed into our brains that "Nanette" did not appear on Broadway until 1925.

The demonizing of Harry Frazee only gets worse. Recent scholarship by Glenn Stout, a writer in New England, has revived the fact that Frazee was involved in a feud with the powers of the American League.

Because Frazee was a New Yorker and a showman, he was apparently fair game to be labeled as Jewish, when, as far as anybody knows, he was a Presbyterian of Scottish ancestry.

Anti-Semitism is no more and no less vicious when it is directed at somebody who is not Jewish. But that was the way a lot of Americans thought in those days, including famous ones like Henry Ford, the founder of the automobile dynasty.

Ford bankrolled a vile weekly newspaper, The Dearborn Independent, whose issue of Sept. 10, 1921, included a long and repulsive diatribe called Jewish Degradation of American Baseball. The article asked how the Red Sox had been "placed under the smothering influences of the 'chosen race.' "

The Independent then quickly explained: "Frazee, like so many of his kind, was in the 'show business,' a manager of burlesque companies. Then he saw a chance in sport."

And it goes on from there. This was not such unusual fare for the time, or today, but Henry Ford circulated more than 250,000 copies of his ugly sheet.

"He professionalized anti-Semitism," said Mark Weitzman, the director of the Task Force Against Hate at the Simon Wiesenthal Center in New York.

"He had the organization and the ability and the money to do it widely," Weitzman added.

According to Stout, the co-author of "Red Sox Century," the vilification of Frazee became encoded into sports legend with the help of Fred Lieb, a sportswriter whose career spanned seven decades.

"Lieb never boldly states that Frazee is Jewish," Stout wrote in the September issue of Boston Baseball.

"His barbs are more subtle," Stout continued. "The nearest he comes to calling Frazee a Jew is a reference to him as an 'evil genie.' The phrase is a knowing wink to the crowd, for the term 'evil genie' was an obscure and now archaic anti-Semitic slur."

Unfortunately, Henry Ford's bile has leached into the aquifer of cultural memory.

"Our name has been maligned," said Max Frazee, 49, an artist and construction supervisor in New York and the great-grandson of Harry Frazee.

Many decades after Ford and Lieb, a sports columnist like me feels guilty for advancing the image of Frazee as a craven loser.

Back in 1986, hours before the sixth game of the World Series, I wrote an early-edition Sunday column that toyed with the concept of some cockamamie curse involving Babe Ruth and the Red Sox.

(I had heard enough gloom and doom on Boston talk radio in previous days to sniff out inherent defeatism. Callers were screaming that the Sawx had to get Bill Buckner off first base in the late innings. They were the prophets, not me.)

My early Sunday column was written so it could go either way in later editions, depending on results. I rewrote it once - Sawx Win! - but it never saw print because I rewrote - Sawx Lose! - when Mookie Wilson's grounder trickled between Buckner's rigid ankles.

According to Stout, who has poked around newspaper archives, my 1986 column was the first time anybody had ever written about a curse involving Frazee and "Nanette" and Ruth.

Personally, I don't think I'm that creative. The image of a franchise haunted by Frazee had been scuttling around in sportswriter minds for decades. Whatever. Four years later, my esteemed colleague at The Boston Globe, Dan Shaughnessy, wrote a book called "The Curse of the Bambino." So now it's history.

All I can say is that I don't want to be a part of the Frazee legend. My chronology about "Nanette" was wrong. I never read Fred Lieb. I had no glimmer of any ancient anti-Semitic link to Frazee, a prominent and popular New Yorker who had serious enemies in other parts of the country.

"My great-grandfather made a lot of money on Broadway," Max Frazee said the other day. "This man owned property. His Red Sox finances were separate. They used a stereotype to deride him."

Enough. The Red Sox may indeed be haunted by some miasma dating from the sale of Babe Ruth, who turned out to be the epochal player in baseball history. It is time, however, to exorcise any image perpetuated by Henry Ford and his lot. Free Harry Frazee.
post #39 of 71
Don't be too rough on the Sux. They gutted out two 9th or extra inning come from behind wins before losing last night. They deserve the wild card.
post #40 of 71
They almost made it three 9th inning comebacks... Ortiz's fly out was pretty deep, but just not far enough. Francona went to his "B" relief staff (Adams, Mendoza, Kim... I doubt you will see these guys in October) after he pulled Lowe, which makes me think they know they have the wild card all but locked up and are just trying to conserve some arms.
post #41 of 71
Thread Starter 

Proof that sportswriters don't need brains...

i pulled the following from a recent murray chass offering in the new york times. lately, there've been plenty of similarly toned attempts at that paper - george vecsey is particularly shrill, whiney and even a little bitchy often enough that one wonders what he's so bothered about (after all, 26, remember?) - but this one here seems to scream "clueless" the loudest.


"...Home for today's game against Anaheim and tomorrow's if there needs to be a tomorrow, the Red Sox can virtually count on playing the Yankees or Minnesota next Tuesday.

The Yankees can't be so certain of playing, even though they avoided an 0-2 deficit by making another of what has become their trademark come-from-behind victories.

So the question arises: If the Red Sox beat the Angels, will they be disappointed if they don't play the Yankees in the league championship series?

(this is interesting. watching the yankees/twins game two the other night with a yankee fan friend of mine, i noticed and was even a little surprised when he said, to the effect, "well, at least it's the twins who knocked us out and not the red sox." at the time, the twins had gone ahead and seemed on the verge of being down two games to none, and here this guy was basically already throwing in the towel and beginning to yack about how the red sox, even if they get to the series, won't have beaten the yankees to get there. it wasn't pretty. but neither was it anything new under the sun.)

Lee Jenkins, a colleague of mine at The Times, posed that question, at my request, to some of the Red Sox players in Anaheim before the second game of their series Wednesday night.
"The answers were short and a little testy," Jenkins said.

(with good reason.)

Players often get testy when they don't want to answer a question. "That's a stupid question," they usually say.

(it IS a stupid question, and the stupider a question is, the 'testier' they're likely to be.)

But this is not a stupid question. It goes to the heart of what really is important to the beleaguered Red Sox.

(no, really, it IS a stupid question. and what's really important to the beleaguered red sox is getting to the world series and winning it.)

"We just want a ring and we don't care how we get it," first baseman Kevin Millar said. "It's not like we get an asterisk if we don't have to play the Yankees."
Right fielder Trot Nixon said: "I could care less about the Yankees. We're just worried about Anaheim on Friday."

Naturally, the Red Sox want to win the World Series, as any team would. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with 1918.

(genius strikes!)

Again, then, the question is: Would the Red Sox feel cheated if they played the Twins, and not the Yankees, in the league championship series?

(in case this was missed the first time, or maybe stupid gets less stupid when it's repeated.)

Daniel, a zealous Red Sox fan who has become an e-mail pal this season, was asked the question and was definite in his reply.

(let's ask a penpal who's both zealous and definite.)

"Absolutely," he wrote. "By and large, the L.C.S. will be meaningless if it's not the Yankees against the Red Sox. This is particularly true given that both starting rotations are tenuous at best, meaning it will likely be a slugfest where no lead is safe."

(thanks, daniel. now finish your fruit loops.)

Daniel, who offered that view before Curt Schilling and Pedro Martínez beat the Angels, is only a fan, not a player, but in this rivalry the fans are at least as important as the players. And maybe more honest.

(or maybe not. and who cares?)

It's probably true that the Red Sox would rather beat another team and get to the World Series than lose to the Yankees in the league championship series.

("probably." classic. the sentence needs nothing added. but i will: No, chass, i'm guessing the red sox would rather play the yankees and lose to them and endure yet one more off-season of the same ol' same ol' than to advance to the world series playing other teams, win it, get big fat lottery-size checks for doing so, then, early next season, get their world series rings, roughly the size of a golf ball, rings that they will have and cherish till the day they die, rings that so few of the 1 in 15,000 who sign professional contracts ever get a chance to compete for. that's just my opinion. your zealous and definite penpal may have one that differs.)

Furthermore, if the Red Sox have to play the Twins next week, they will show up.

(very good, murray. let's call it a scoop.)

And if they beat the Twins, they will welcome the National League pennant winner to Fenway Park on Oct. 23 for Game 1."

(IF? )


don't get all riled up, yank fans; i'm poking at a paper's writers who are a little too presumptuous and pompous. and though vecsey in his most recent (and almost embarassing to read, it's so PMS-ish) didn't exactly call the twins "toast" , he did say that the yankees getting past them is a "foregone conclusion, doctor." so there really shouldn't be any concern about the red sox missing out on the already-written rematch.

after all, the series is back in minnesota - no place the yankees would rather be - with kevin brown (just dominant of late, a veritable Sure Thing) going today. what else could you want? except maybe the opportunity to face johan santanna down 2 games to 1 in a best-of-five series.

yes, IF the yankees stumble, and IF the red sox somehow manage to Get It Done, all soxdom will weep, long and hard (especially daniel the red sox fan). absolutely. uh huh. you bet.


post #42 of 71
Not quite sure why you got so agitated about this line of questioning...

Of course, the Sox want to win the series, Yankees or no Yankees. I read it as "it would be especially sweet (and a 100% exorcism of The Curse) if they could defeat the Yankees in the process."
post #43 of 71
Thread Starter 


i need to be more liberal in my use of these things:

decidedly non-agitated, i assure you. maybe a little edgy waiting for the start of the last game of the angels' season.

(and while i think the curse thing is a pilefull, i gotta believe it'd be 100% exorcised even if it were the washington expos-senators-marion barrys they beat. but that gets back to the point of my talk-back to chass.)
post #44 of 71
Originally Posted by ryan
i need to be more liberal in my use of these things:
I saw the smiley, but you gave that article a pretty close reading. By the end, I was expecting to see footnotes and secondary reading sources listed, à la Dangerous Brian.

I'm somewhat saddened to see you rooting against your hometown team.
post #45 of 71
Thread Starter 

"somewhat saddened..."

you'll get over it.
i did.

post #46 of 71
Hey ryan,

Can they win 4 straight?

The "curse" continues but even I thought they'd give the Yanks a better series of it.
post #47 of 71
On to the Series. Hope it's the Cards playing the Yanquis.
post #48 of 71
if they can make it to a game 7 is all I care about; take it from there - the one game at at time thing is kinda cheesy but very true. Look at the pats man - thery're the anti-redsox
post #49 of 71
Ze cat toys with ze mouse.
post #50 of 71
Ze mouse escapes ze cat.
post #51 of 71
Thread Starter 


Ze mouse decides it's had plenty of playtime, kills the cat and eats it.

The End.
post #52 of 71
Right now I have this picture in my head of Ryan joyfulling singing the following REM lyrics:

"Its the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine."
post #53 of 71
Did you see the sign? The Sox haven't won a World series since 1918. They won their games on October 19th and October 18th, Now they have won the Pennant. The Yanks are OUT! This IS the Sox year to win.
post #54 of 71
Thread Starter 

screw disneyland

I'm going skiing!
post #55 of 71
Originally Posted by teachskiljp
Did you see the sign? The Sox haven't won a World series since 1918.
Thanks for the scoop. No one was aware of that!

Congrats to the Red Sox... an incredible comeback.

BTW, as a result of the Yankees' unprecedented collapse, Ryan is now the proud recipient of a T-shirt or hat (or both if I'm feeling generous) from an East Coast ski area to be determined at a later date.
post #56 of 71
Thread Starter 
As the delegate from Nyawk will receive for his team's sweet and historic acquiescence a like item from one of our fine far western ski hills. Deliverable in Golden, BC, the first week in March.

And Rul, think about a day at Mammoth for that burger.

And Rio, I ain't forgot. (Hope you got nothing against woollyish and extinct pachiderm-like animals.)
post #57 of 71
Well, I told the other students in my driving class that if I passed the test, this could be the year! Who knows?
post #58 of 71
Hey ryan,

Can they win 4 straight?
Yes, yes they can.
post #59 of 71
Congrats to the Sox team and their fans. I would drink to them but I can't get the crow feathers out of my mouth. I hope its the Cards against the Sox.

What do you guys think about the Ms new skipper?
post #60 of 71
Originally Posted by ryan
And Rio, I ain't forgot. (Hope you got nothing against woollyish and extinct pachiderm-like animals.)

Wow, just what every man in Montana dreams of even if she is a Republican. When does she arrive.
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