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any snwbdrs convert to skis? - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Well this might become quite a longish answer, but let me try to point out some things of the pros and cons of both.
I have started skiing when I was 3 and did it till I was 9. At the age of 7 however I got my first snowboard (whoa - it had steel edges, I was so proud of it, because only a few boarders by that time had steel edges and was kinda a alpine/raceboard mix - there weren't many anyhow and a nice 2 sizes too big Raichle 121 (they didn't sell them in my size)). After just about 3 weeks of training on a snowboard I got down everywhere where I had been able to go down on skis too and soon my skis weren't in use anymore (I was bored only going down straight on skis, and much more one couldn't do on skis by that time ......-sure moguls, freeride,.....). Later on I got a freestyle/freeride board and softies, the powder boarding and jumping was just so cool that by the age of 10 my hard setup wasn't in use any more. By the age of 13 however I got my first proper Raceboard - a Burton Speed and soon I was really into racing. At 15 I had made it to the Austrian nationals at my age category and at 17 and 18 I even participated at some Europcups in GS SL and BX (FIS never ISF as they didn't sponsor young racers as good as the ÖSV did). Did some freestyling and a lot of freeriding too and in 2002 (age 18) I ****ed up my knee badly in a Boardercross at Bad Gastein. Took me until 2004 too actually recover completely. So last season because of fear that i blow out my knee again I swore myself to only ski or raceboard and not go into freestyle/BX or Freeriding for the year to save my knee. Off course I was back on my Swallowtail in February, what the heck just didn't take any cliffs.
The same year in early december I had my second try with carving skis. (I once had used an Atomic 9.18 -the first year they had come out, just one day, but didn't like em). It was again on Atomics 9.18 (same first modell year, 98? I believe from my parents) however It was not at all the same feeling as on my raceboard, fare too slow and never ever the same edge grip.
Then on the 28dec 2004 (maybe 29 or 30 - not sure anymore) I went to the mountains and mistakenly took my ski hardboots instead of the snowboard hardboots with me. Well so I went into a shop and hired a Fischer Worldcup SC in 160 cm (03/04 modell) and had an absolute blow when doing some slalom gates with the female worldcuppers, as it was worldcup at the Semmering the same day. Using a hard-flexing ski with a deep sidecut, 10m or 11m I believe, I was actually able to use exactly the same technique as on my GS raceboard carving it down and scoring runs in the really icy training run which was set up for the female worldcuppers. I did quite good and using my charme I asked a swiss girl if I could try some original worlcup skis and she actually took me to her team and they handed me out some nice 155 original worldcup stock skis for some runs.(Stoekli) Yeah they rocked even more. From that day on I knew that I wan't to ski too more often.

Pros Skiing Slalom vs Snowboard Slalom:
A lot faster than on a slalom raceboard. Easier to controll and less crashes due to the two edges. Less edgehold on skis, however no abrupt end of the grip. On a snowboard on icy conditions the turn is much cleaner. To go down a slalom on skis is much easier than on a snowboard. However I still hate the gates and prefer the stubbies (=the flags in snowboard races).

Pros Skiing GS vs Snowboarding GS:
The technique is again very similar. Especially compared to the backside technique. Frontside is quite different. It's a bit easier on a snowboard. On skis it takes time to learn how to actually drive the long GS skis in the gates without missing a gate. Faster is again skiing, but a skier skier in a snowboard course wouldn't be much faster than a boarder, maybe 2-3%, not more. Same for Slalom. A snowboarder in a skiers course would loose much more.

Well definitely both make fun. A snowboard allows much lower angles. Bodycarving on skis is very difficult. High Speeds on skis are easier to controll and if slope is not even but has already deep ruts and moguls skis are definitely better. On an icy day a 180cm GS snowboard has on the other hand definitely more edgehold than GS racestock skis.

Impossible on skis, only possible on a snowboard visit www.extremecarving.com - bodycarving is not the same. A skier will never have the ski standing in a 90° angle to the slope, but max 60-70°. Provides a lot of fun on a snowboard and very high G's (I have never achieved as high G-Forces on skis)

Skicross is much straighter, boardercross is more curved. Skiers will allways win a mixed cross event because raceboarders are not as fast in the straights, and softboarders loose too much speed in the corners.

Is a lot easier on a snowboard. Skis are however faster if long and fat. Speaking about 195cm skis. (there is a freeride race in France where skiers allways win against the 220cm Swallowtailsnowboards). However the floating/surfing feeling is for me just a lot cooler on a snowboard. The manoverability in trees and deep pow is better than on skis. I have actually gone down chutes which really good skiers didn't trus themselves to go down. Going down something really steep with an ice-axe is somehow only down on snowboard. The south? face of the Mont-Blanc was first went down by Marco Siffredi, no skier ever managed to duplicate his route. (about 80°, pure ice, he went down with an ice-axe, and jump turns). Jump turns are easier on a snowboard than on skis.

Carving technique is very similar on both. Every good raceboarder will rock on slalom race skis after some hours of training. (though only while freecarving, knocking down gates is something I still haven't really understood how to do). As well a good carver can learn on a GS raceboard carving, but will need a few weeks. There are some race skiers/boarders that have changed back and fourth in FIS skiing europecup and snowboard worldcup. Alexander Maier, the brother from the Herminator, who is nearly never on skis beats his brother in the slalom on skis. (which means he could probabely compete in Europecup slalom without probs - because Hermann isn't that bad just 4-5 seconds off each run). For a freeride/freestyle snowboarder the switch to skiing is a lot harder than for a good carver on a snowboard. For a raceboarder like me the switch to GS raceskis wasn't hard either, but only after I had done some slalom. Using allround skis, which are for average to good skiers, with an 16m radius, and not beeing torsionally strong, did put me up with a lot of probs. I didn't really find the ballance and had too much pressure on the outer ski, problems with fore/aft and backseat.

Problems one might encounter when switching too skis: Too wide stance, about Rainer Schönfelder stance as minimum. Skiing in the backseat because the forward flex of ski boots is too hard for converts, and a little more ramp than usual could be useful. It is hard for a raceboarder not to try be very very low but as the boot doesn't flex very much too the front I got in the backseat, with my upper body flexed forward in order not too fall over to the back. Most probs disappeared for me once I used the Fischer Worldcup SC with newer boots. (my boots still date back about 12 years, and are very,very hard with less forward lean than used today, I want the Atomic Racetech but there are so many snowsport goods I want).

I have got about 30 days on skis so far (in one season). On my second to last day of the season I first tried Atomic 205cm SuperG skis in a course. That was somehow an overkill, but I managed to get down the course without harm and not flying off the slope (though an approx 35-40m jump scared the hell out of me, totally stupid idea anyhow to race down a superG course without ever having been on skis longer than 185cm before, and without freeskiing them first, but straight going into the course). I don't think that many skiers would even dare to go down a superG course fullspeed, neither will they have the power (oh yesyou need to be strong for that) nor the skills to get through safely. (though I didn't tuck because It was anyhow so so fast) but using the skills and techniques aquired in raceboarding provided me with a good base for carving it down without driftint a single turn or braking. However I will never ever do a superG anymore, it scared me to death and even it was only 500m vert (just a training course for Atomics new SuperG line up - set up for some 16years old junior world champions) I had no more power when I arrived. I nearly couldn't break it down in the finish, as those damn long and hard skis didn't want to drift but just carve.

Adapting to GS technique and skis however is not difficult.

Skis are much much easier. I can do a 540 only on a snowboard on my homebase waterramp, while on skis I can stick 900 and rodeo 720's easily. The jumping off is just easier. In snow the difference is not as significant, but the landing on a snowboard must be cleaner. For example landing when landing a frontflip on skis on can angle one ski and land the first part only on it (just slightly) however on a board this is not possible. As well the controll in the air is easier on skis in generell.

Moguls: the skiers dream, here they can beat every snowboarder. With a freestyle/freeride board it can be fun. With a long raceboard proper moguls are hell - however I would never go into mogus with my raceskis either in order not to break them)

Style: A good skier has more style than a bad one, a good boarder more than a bad boarder. That's my take on it.

Hope to have given some insights to you. I will allways continue to do both sports. For me I will use my long,long freerideboard (not the childrens toy you see other people using but a real longboard) on powder days. If the slopes are crowded I take out my slalom skis because one can react faster on skis (uh that I forgot to write down above),and doesn't have the backside view problem, meaning when I carve really low on a snowboard on my backside skiers (mainly) will not expect my carving speed and straightline into me coming from above. This could happen on skis too, however not as likely as it is easier too look uphill when doing a "backside" turn on skis than on a snowboard. When the snow conditions are super with grippy and nicely groomed slopes I get out my GS raceboard too do some extremecarving (oh I would love to use a Swoard for this).

For people with knee probs: traditional skiing is really bad. Carving is the same on a board as on skis, and freeriding is less demanding on a snowboard than on skis. When falling down it is also a lot safer on a snowboard, no knee twisting. In generall snowboarding is better for the knee, however in BigAir and Boardercross I consider skiing to be better for the knee due to the impact of the landing. Snowboarding is more dangerous for the arms, skiing for the legs.
In generell I consider snowboarding too be safer, however the accident-rates are about the same for both sports, but I belief snowboarders (mostly younger than skiers) risk more than skiers. If they would be skiing they would be in higher danger. (like doing superG stuff, or going down really fast).

Those who have read all until here: Congrats to you, I hope you will do both sports in the future too.
post #32 of 49
Man, you should ice your keyboard after than one. Quite a dissertation - with good insights.
post #33 of 49
Uh, yeah that was a long post:

Just some tipps for real snowboard converts (hardbooter):

1. Do not use allround carvers but get top of the line Slalom carvers with a very short radius. Like a Fischer Wordcup SC/SL in 160cm or 165cm, or Atomic ST11 in 160cm, or off course Atomic SL11 worldcup if you can get your hands on it. A beefy, hard ski will be easier as raceboards are way stiffer than any short skis. Any race stock slalom skis will truly please you. Best would be to rent the equipment for the start, lest say the first 3-4 days until you find out what you want.

2. You will be able to handle real GS race stock skis too if you had a really good carving technique on the snowboard. It will be easier however to start with a slalom.

For Softboot converts:
Well I am not really sure, might be best to get a funcarver with very small radius at the same length (but no longer than 165cm) than your snowboard. Remember that softboard have about 7-9m radius, so anything 9-12m is actually the same radius on a ski. (Measurements and technique are somehow different, however in my experience a 162/3 8.50m radius snowboard will carve the same radius as a 10-11m ski. On a 172cm 14m radius raceboard the comparable ski radius is somewhere between 16 and 18m.

Start when the slope is hard, don't start in soft snow or moguls because than it will be really hard to carve. Directly go to a red slope, don't start in the beginners area. You might start without poles, however I think it is easier to start with poles. Just gather some speed, lean to the side and experience how a ski carves. It is very similar. (if you have never been on straight, classic skis before you might try to learn drifting first in order to know how to brake) Never ever try a snowplow to break. Just carve uphill if you can't brake by drifting, which you should be able to instantly know how to anyhow.

However to really get into skiing takes more than 30 days for a convert. I can still not carve down a medium steep slope on one ski only, but I know some snowboard converts who know how to. Carving a blue slope on one ski is no prob, however once I get faster I don't feel secure on my "frontside turn (=turn on inside ski only) initiation". Therefore and because of other errors I make, I know that my technique is still far from perfect. However in any ski area in Austria I can boost down the slopes even with the best skiers around, I normally ride with former ski racers - because they are the only ones to put up with my speed, condition and I can learn from them. I consider myself to belong to the top 5-10% of carvers in every skifield after just 30 days of skiing - beat that.
post #34 of 49
I did the opposite. I learned to ski as a toddler, then picked up snowboarding in my late teens. Today I put in an equal # of days on 1 plank vs. 2. I also teach both disciplines.

The biggest difference for me is the little voice in the back of my head. You know the voice I'm talking about...the one that says, "SLOW DOWN before you kill us!" Whether it's due to mechanics or experience I'm not sure, but I've managed to basically silence that voice while skiing. Snowboarding, OTOH, allows me to hear that voice loud and clear!

I've managed to score free rides down the mountain in the meatwagon on both skis (blown knee, concussions, broken collarbone) and a snowboard (the other collarbone, concussions, ankle injuries), yet the mild slam on a snowboard still scares me more than the tomahawking yardsale on skis.

I will say though, if done with a modicum of caution I believe snowboarding wears on the body less.
post #35 of 49
Haha, i know exactly what you mean. "Slow down before you catch a front edge and break your wrists" or "slow down before you catch a back edge and knock yourself out" It's been a long time since i have done it but it is always on my mind when i am trying to clear flat icy spots by going as fast as i can.
post #36 of 49
I find snowboarding jars your knees but skiing twists your knees, ski boots protect your ankles while snowboard boots don't as much, I am more likely to knock myself out on a snowboard but i am more likely to hurt my shoulders skiing. Hmmm....
post #37 of 49
The flats. Oh boy the flats! I have this dangerous tendency to take in the scenery on catwalks and other flat areas, which usually means I'm not paying much attention to snow-edge interactions. On skis, no biggie...on a snowboard, well, that's why I wear a helmet!
post #38 of 49
I've seen many boarders bite it on catwalks. It looks seriously painful. I once saw a kid break his wrist - you could hear the "crack".

Still, skiers pay in others ways - sometimes with their ACL.
post #39 of 49
Trust me, it is painful. Buying a helmet was a very very very smart move. I have caught edges before on rock hard Aussie snow and the back of my head has broken my fall. Repeatedly landing on an already extremely sore tailbone is also very painful. Skiing doesn't trash my body as much so I am definitely going to try hard to get back into skiing this winter.
post #40 of 49
Thread Starter 
ohh by the way TGR = Teton Gravity Research, which is a video production company. In all honesty I never spent that much time in terrain parks/pipes. I like going fast, and steep, moguls don't intrigue me (maybe b/c of all the years on a board). In my decision was based on one simple fact= two edges working independently of each other, well not totally indepedent. This just seem to add to more overall stablity which Iski2fast4u mentioned. I was aware of the injury differences. I PM'd physicsman about the difference of surface area for powder days, but unless I overlooked it, he hasn't responded . At some point the longer lengths of a ski + the new wide widths have to equal the same or more surface area as a normal 160ish lenght board. What I was wondering is even if the surface areas are the same, does the simple fact that you're on one plank make a difference in the abilty to stay on top ie surf the powder, over skis. To me it wouldn't matter how the surface area was acheived, two or one plank, but that is why I only work at snow/ski shop.

thanks folks
post #41 of 49
it does matter how it is achieved. have a look fishtails or swallowtail boards
post #42 of 49
I began snowboarding way way back when Burton's board was completely wood, had two rubber straps, a rope to the nose and two small metal edges.

At that time I wasn't allowed to use it on any hill. Magically one year a local hill allowed them but.... you had to get a tag saying you were allowed to use it. To get the tag you had to show you could stop, turn left and right.
Things progressed, Burton, Avalanche and Sims ruled the day and anyone wanting to be rebellious rode a snow board. Damn those nylon straps with buckles. had to tighten them up constantly as they stretched and you had to force the buckles to catch. Steel edges and a petex base what a novel idea.

Then the ratchet binding came out. ahh things were much better now, we all figured out if you take a ski boot liner and put it in your Kamicks you could rip harder. I fondly remember the Burton Cruiser 165 with the upper shin strap. Ooh the pain, but man could you toe side edge.

Things got all funky from here. New fandangled widgits and gidits, shaped boards hit the scene, hard boot race boards that left skiers drooling over the tracks they left and the lean they achieved.

I decided to Join the CSPS (snowboards barely accepted at this time) and wondered if I was good enough to pass on a board. So I dusted off my skis (5-6 years without touching them) and tested on them. I was surprised how much fun skiing was again, how much easier it was (no sit down, buckle up, contorsioning to move around, stand up etc...) I then tested on my board and passed that as well.

Funny thing was I kept grabbing my skis to go patrolling, the board just sat there. I would occasionally grab a board mid day for a few runs for $hit$ and giggles, maybe use it on some local hill powder day, but I enjoyed the skis more.

I found skiing alot more challenging. Boarding after a while is just easy, didn't seem to have the technical challenge that skiing did.

Also at this time I was fighting religiously to let skiers into the "boarder parks" despite being a patroller when off shift I would burn the park. Hitting rails, table tops, half pipe until I got caught. I would insist to see the manager and make a huff that it was discrimination and it wasn't right. they would take my ticket and I would make a scene leaving.

Through my patrolling and contact with area management I continued pressing the issue until one year they allowed skiers as well as boarders. The safety data after a number of years showed almost no difference in the numbers of injuries Snowboarders VS skiers. granted injuries were different but no better no worse.

I am a skier that used to snowboard during a period of delusion.

Boarding is a completely different feeling and there is something to be said about rippin a powder field on a board and the fun in jumping. But it's too damn easy, it's a royal pain in the arse re the bindings, moving around, getting up to or over to that sweet spot, getting over flat area's, getting up in powder, moving through tree's. BAH who needs the grief give me my skis.
post #43 of 49
I go both ways but have only been boarding for about 7 of my 43 years riding on snow. I have a few long-time skier friends who have gone over to boarding completely. one is a surfer and only snowbaords a couple of times a season. THis is a guy who used to be a ski bum and ski 100+ days per year. The other is a complete powder chaser and while he gets a lot of days in, he only goes when and where it dumps.

Myself, I mostly ski and only board a few days and half days each season. I doubt I will ever give up skiing for boarding. If I am at a smaller area that I might find boring on skis I use my board and am much more involved and challenged.

I find snowboarding, at least with my limited skills, a really interesting way to play with the contours of the piste, more so than skiing.

When boarding I avoid flats and moguls at all costs!

Nobody, you don't need to buy expensive soft boots to get started; my first 2 seasons I just used my regular snow-pack boots.
post #44 of 49
In my years of teaching groups of skiers I get one question asked a lot: do skiers or boarders degrade the snow on slopes more? Most skiiers contend that snowboarders scrape more snow of a slope than skiers.....

In order to decrease animosity towards boarders I usually say there's no difference, but that's just a guess.

Anyone know the real answer?
post #45 of 49
Originally Posted by Klimski
In my years of teaching groups of skiers I get one question asked a lot: do skiers or boarders degrade the snow on slopes more? Most skiiers contend that snowboarders scrape more snow of a slope than skiers.....

In order to decrease animosity towards boarders I usually say there's no difference, but that's just a guess.

Anyone know the real answer?
Funny you should ask, Klimski. I actually do know the real answer; it's 42.
post #46 of 49
Originally Posted by Klimski
In my years of teaching groups of skiers I get one question asked a lot: do skiers or boarders degrade the snow on slopes more? Most skiiers contend that snowboarders scrape more snow of a slope than skiers.....

In order to decrease animosity towards boarders I usually say there's no difference, but that's just a guess.

Anyone know the real answer?
That question, on this forum, is like poking a caged dog with a stick.
post #47 of 49
Common the answer is so easy. A carving skier or snowboarder will ruin the pist much less than all thos bloody driftin people. If everyone would just carve, it'ld be heaven on the slopes.

Now think again about it, are there more drifting skiers or boarders in your area, then you know the answer.
post #48 of 49
I'm not sure it's physically possible for skiers to put all their weight on an edge, and shear snowpack the way you can on a board. Skiers just can't get that much leaverage, unless they can balance on one ski, facing sideways.

Boarders stand perpendicular to their board (or close to it), facing the slope when they edge down the hill, so they have more stability and lots of pressure.

If you think about it, it's a natural response for inexperienced boarders who get in over their heads.
post #49 of 49
No its not natural. Givem a raceboard that they can't drift to start boarding. Or give skiers slalom race skis to start off (not as effective as a raceboard).
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