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Ron Lemaster's response to Pulling inside foot back - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the great feedback!
post #32 of 56
Atomicman,

Something for you to think about. If your pulling your inside foot back, how and why did it move so far forward in the first place?

Think about this:
As Ron accurately pointed out in his responce to you, zero inside tip lead is not the ideal. There should be, and ussaully is, some. If thats the case, then, if no foot position adjustments are made during the turn transition the new turn would start with the new inside foot behind the new outside foot. You only need to pull the inside foot back if you've moved the it too far forward of it's initial position at the start of the turn.

You indicate you pull your inside foot back so you are obviously over pushing it at the transition. Why are you doing that? Your wasting movement, time, energy and efficiency doing that. Wouldn't your efforts be better directed at correcting a movement pattern (pushing inside foot to far forward) that's the root of your problem, and not just treating the symptoms?
post #33 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowDog
Atomicman,

Something for you to think about. If your pulling your inside foot back, how and why did it move so far forward in the first place?

Think about this:
As Ron accurately pointed out in his responce to you, zero inside tip lead is not the ideal. There should be, and ussaully is, some. If thats the case, then, if no foot position adjustments are made during the turn transition the new turn would start with the new inside foot behind the new outside foot. You only need to pull the inside foot back if you've moved the it too far forward of it's initial position at the start of the turn.

You indicate you pull your inside foot back so you are obviously over pushing it at the transition. Why are you doing that? Your wasting movement, time, energy and efficiency doing that. Wouldn't your efforts be better directed at correcting a movement pattern (pushing inside foot to far forward) that's the root of your problem, and not just treating the symptoms?
Incorrect!!!!!

I have no problem that I am trying to correct. I assure you my skiing has been critiqued by some of the most trained eyes around. X-world-Cupper who has been coaching our team for many years. One of the top Masters racers from Sun Valley, who wins slalom & Gs Masters races on a regular basis and trains and teaches 180 days per year. they both tell me my skiing is absolutely great!

I have explained this numerous times & Olle Larrson has explained it & LeMaster has spoken about it & our coach who was on the World Cup has discussed it with me & the Website I pointed out in this post earlier discusses it.

I am finally tuckered out. But will say it one more time. This is NOT a corrective move. I DO NOT have my inside foot too far foward ever. I prefer to ski with my feet trailing my hips and projecting my CM into the direction of the next turn. I feel we have beat this to death. LeMaster also said lead change and holding your inside foot back are not mutually exclusive. He said it was not possible to have no lead change with a lot of inclination he never said it wasn't ideal. No one ever said your tips should be perfectly even.
post #34 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
I DO NOT have my inside foot too far foward ever
Then what are you pulling it back for? Jeez Atomicman, my post went right over your head.


Quote:
I prefer to ski with my feet trailing my hips and projecting my CM into the direction of the next turn.
So are you talking about your inside foot back in relation to your CM, or in relation to your outside foot. There's a huge difference between the two. Something else you might want to think about. Hopefully you'll devote a little more consideration than you did on the last assignment I gave you.
post #35 of 56
Thread Starter 
I am waving a White flag!!!! I surrender!!!

Maybe we'll get to ski together someday.
post #36 of 56
Sounds good. Maybe I'll come to one of your boys races if they're nearby. No hard feelings, I'm just a stickler for detail.
post #37 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
John,

What I was getting at is that pu;lling your inside foot back is not just some coach's direction or some corny drill. It IS the way to ski!!! That is the point of the post. Did you read Olle's article or have you read any of his other's in Ski Racing.

Respectfully,
Atomicman

PS I am not a coach or instructor, just around the race hill a lot & have skied for 42 years.
In response to your comment, "It is the way to ski", I would suggest that is a bit shortsighted.

Think about bump skiing. Good bump skiers essentially do a reverse cycling movement. At times feet are being pushed forward and at times feet are being pulled back.

The inimitable Weems Westfeldt is a big proponent of "pulling the inside foot back" He extends the topic to feeling as though the inside hip is "crimped". Weems has been turning em with grace and style at Aspen for many years.

Robin May talks about "slicing the tomatoe" with the outside ski. He is a big proponent of moving the outside ski forward during the course of a turn.

I have described in the past what Burt Skall has said about the inside ski moving forward at turn initiation in so far as if the inside foot is slipping forward (essentially requiring it to eventually be pulled back) it ain't tipping.

I'm working hard to move my outside foot forward in all my turns because I've noted on video I end up levering the front of my outside boot.

In short. I suggest there is not ONE way or THE way to ski.

I want to add two things. Perhaps what Atomicman feels in pulling the inside foot back is merely holding the foot in place.

Lastly one final point. Atomicman you cite a wide range of folks who say you ski well. I bet you do ski well, but who cares! If it makes you smile that's all that matters. You have mentioned your kids racing. My eleven year old can ski circles around me, however, that doesn't make me a decent skier.

Did you honestly think when you sought out the opinion of those experts they'd look at you and say.......your turns really suck!
post #38 of 56
Thread Starter 
Rusty, being Crusty as usual!

Apparantly Snowdog cared! I ususally don't talk about my own level of skiing but in his post he commented that i was trying to use pulling my inside foot back or as you said keeping it in place as a corrective move to correct some flaw in my skiing. You took my comment completely out of context and I agree, No one cares except Snowdog at the time. My comment certainly was only directed to him. Maybe you should mind your own beeswax, except that your other comments were appreciated, just not the ones where you become Crusty Rusty!

And I do disagree, pushing your outside foot forward is counter productive and gets your foot in front of your hips. Who do you think you are JC Killy or something?

And I completely disagree that tipping your inside ski and pulling it back are mutually exclusive.

By then way I didn't seek these folks out, they made unsolicted comments when I didn't even no they were watching. I am sorry to hear your getting your ass kicked by an eleven year old, must be a humbling experience! Yeah my 181/2 can woop me in a GS,SG or DH race course, & my 15 year old has gotten pretty fas tin DH & SG, but in a slalom course or out free skiing I'll still woop on 'em

Why do you always have to be such an Ogre!

Lovingly as always A-man!
post #39 of 56
This thread got a little derailed on an unnecessary misunderstanding about definitions, and that was made worse by my previous somewhat sarcastic response. Is it a correction or just good skiing? I think it's both. Balance involves constant corrections and responses to the randomness of the surface. If you are in balance now, you will immediately be out of balance if you don't move to where you need to be next. Advanced skiers make small, continuous adjustments, less skilled skiers need large, jerky correctons.
On the issue of coach's directions, I think most coaches would agree that different people respond differently to different directions, and sometimes those responses are counter-intuitive. Not every skier needs to be told to pull his foot back, and some skiers respond poorly to that direction. In fact, effective movements are pretty much the same for everyone (allowing for differences based on strength and flexibility, etc.), but everyone's response to a particular direction is unique.
If anyone finds they need consciously to pull their foot back to ski well, by all means keep doing it. I've found that I ski better when I focus on where I am going more than how I do it. No coach can look at either of us and tell what we are thinking.

Hope this helps,

John
post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Rusty, being Crusty as usual!

Apparantly Snowdog cared! I ususally don't talk about my own level of skiing but in his post he commented that i was trying to use pulling my inside foot back or as you said keeping it in place as a corrective move to correct some flaw in my skiing. You took my comment completely out of context and I agree, No one cares except Snowdog at the time. My comment certainly was only directed to him. Maybe you should mind your own beeswax, except that your other comments were appreciated, just not the ones where you become Crusty Rusty!

And I do disagree, pushing your outside foot forward is counter productive and gets your foot in front of your hips. Who do you think you are JC Killy or something?

And I completely disagree that tipping your inside ski and pulling it back are mutually exclusive.

By then way I didn't seek these folks out, they made unsolicted comments when I didn't even no they were watching. I am sorry to hear your getting your ass kicked by an eleven year old, must be a humbling experience! Yeah my 181/2 can woop me in a GS,SG or DH race course, & my 15 year old has gotten pretty fas tin DH & SG, but in a slalom course or out free skiing I'll still woop on 'em

Why do you always have to be such an Ogre!

Lovingly as always A-man!
Atomicman,

Pushing your feet forward and getting your feet ahead of your hips is a skill needed to ski bumps well. Please glance at the following as a picture speaks 1000 words;

http://www.epicski.com/Content/Gener...rnes/Bumps.htm

Where did I mention mutual exclusivity in relation to tipping or dorsiflexion?

I made no mention of an ass kicking. That was your terminology. I said she could ski circles around me. In reality it was an attempt to be self deprecating as opposed to grandiloquent.

I've never felt the need to talk about me own skiing.....or my kids!
post #41 of 56
Thread Starter 
WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT BUMP SKIING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought "Skis Circles around and Kick your Ass" were interchangable technical ski terms!
post #42 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdowling
This thread got a little derailed on an unnecessary misunderstanding about definitions, and that was made worse by my previous somewhat sarcastic response. Is it a correction or just good skiing? I think it's both. Balance involves constant corrections and responses to the randomness of the surface. If you are in balance now, you will immediately be out of balance if you don't move to where you need to be next. Advanced skiers make small, continuous adjustments, less skilled skiers need large, jerky correctons.
On the issue of coach's directions, I think most coaches would agree that different people respond differently to different directions, and sometimes those responses are counter-intuitive. Not every skier needs to be told to pull his foot back, and some skiers respond poorly to that direction. In fact, effective movements are pretty much the same for everyone (allowing for differences based on strength and flexibility, etc.), but everyone's response to a particular direction is unique.
If anyone finds they need consciously to pull their foot back to ski well, by all means keep doing it. I've found that I ski better when I focus on where I am going more than how I do it. No coach can look at either of us and tell what we are thinking.

Hope this helps,

John
JD, nice post. I agree! but, Rusty always seems to have to bust someone's balls and comment off point(Bump skiing). He always seems to have to personally attack people. i get kinda tired of it. I thought we were trying to have a civil discussion.
post #43 of 56
How is bump skiing off topic?
post #44 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
How is bump skiing off topic?
Isn't that obvious?
post #45 of 56
I guess my point was you stated pulling the inside foot back is "the way to ski". I was merely trying to politely argue there are a variety of "ways to ski" in lots of different conditions.

I'll add another scenario to bumps in which I push both feet forward and that involves skied out powder or busted up snow.

Imagine a spring day when some quantity of snow, let's say a foot for example has fallen. It's now noon and an area that has seen heavy skier trafic has cut up this snow.

Would you advocate "pulling the inside foot back" in these conditions? I'd suggest this is a scenario when I might push both feet forward a little particularly as speed increases.

Just a question.......a fairly civil question I might add.

Atomicman I'm not launching a personal attack. I just found your comments about the critique of your skiing to be fairly lame ONLY INSOFAR AS A SUPPORT OF YOUR ARGUMENT and there seems to have been a fairly consistant pattern whereby you support arguments that you make by saying your kids ski race.

My kick ass daughter has been swimming year-round for six years. I swim a little and hang around the pool deck. That doesn't make me Ian Thorpe.
post #46 of 56
Thread Starter 
First off we were talking about groomed slopes and race courses.

OF Course you use different technique in the bumps!
DUH!

As usual you missed the point. Snowdog referenced "MY SKIING" in his post "TO ME". I was simply responding to "HIS" comment no trying to expound on my ability.

I really don't care what you think is lame or not.

Your pool analogy doesn't hold water (Ha! Ha!)because apparantly you don't swim with your daughter, you just hang around the pool. Or are you training masters swimming like I am skiing, Get the difference?

You seem jealous or something about my boys skiing.
By the way, my younger son is Ranked 4th in the country for 1989 DOB in downhill right now, and my older boy as a J3 finished in the top 10 in SG at western region JO's and in the top 15 in GS #1 finisher for PNSA in both events . Unfortunately he blew his knee out at a FIS Downhill and and never got back to where he was. Excuse the piss out of me if the kids can ski.

But I will grant you this. That is them. Your right, it is no reflection on my skiing and I never insinuated that is was.

But I am proud of their accomplishments!

My point of ever mentioning any of this is that I am in constant contact with one of the top coaches in the West on & off the hill on a regular basis in reference to many issues including technique . I guess if you want to prove me a bad guy for being a proud dad and an enthuiastic student of skiing, SO BE IT! I don't think anyone really cares what you think of me!

So I guess what you are trying to say is that I have no more knowledge nor credibility than some beginner skier whose kids have not been involved in one of the premiere ski programs in the country! I can acceptt that. Think what you want. You're always so grumpy!
post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Yeah my 181/2 can woop me in a GS,SG or DH race course, & my 15 year old has gotten pretty fas tin DH & SG, but in a slalom course or out free skiing I'll still woop on 'em
Why you old fart, you're still racing speed events? Good for you!! Those kids seem to be keeping you young. Enjoy whuppin up on your young one while you can, cause it aint gunna last for long (as I'm sure you hope). If there's anything worse for a 16 year old boy than getting chick'd, it's getting pop'd. :
post #48 of 56
Thread Starter 
Right on! Gettin' Pop'd is bad!

Are you crazy? I don't get on any SG or DH course. I am scared to death. I just know I would get my ass whooped by the kids if I did ski one . I have a definite speed limit. I would be standing straight up and have the least aerodynamic coat on I could find. maybe even a parachute behind me. I even get a little spooked in some GS courses. Now & then i'll pretend I am going fast on the same they run they ran a downhill on after they've taken a downhill course down of course!
post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Are you crazy?
It's been said.

A-man, allow me to plant a seed. Take out a pair of 220's some day and see how much your speed comfort zone goes up. For me there's nothing more fun than riding long arcs on long skis at 60mph. The world is flying by at a blurr but the feeling on those long boards is one of smoothness and stability. Speed events are a sport apart.

Just don't tell your wife.
post #50 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowDog
It's been said.

A-man, allow me to plant a seed. Take out a pair of 220's some day and see how much your speed comfort zone goes up. For me there's nothing more fun than riding long arcs on long skis at 60mph. The world is flying by at a blurr but the feeling on those long boards is one of smoothness and stability. Speed events are a sport apart.

Just don't tell your wife.
or insurance comapny. I have skied on My older sons Atomic 212 DH's and of course in the old days my everday ski was a 210. Got pulled over a couple a times back in the 80's by the ski patrol on a pair of Atomic 215 SG. But you know, I would have a lot of practice to do to ski thje DH's well. It is a completly different technique. I think I would be fine if I skied a pair for an entire day. Although my friends harass me a little bit 'cause I still make slalom turns on GS & SG skis. I guess my tuning fork just naturally likes to make shorter radius turns. But you know you've given me the motivatio to maybe spend a day on those beasts this season and see if i can get the hang of it. Afterall, tuck turns are fun and speed events are absolutely a sport apart!

Over & out!

A-man
post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Our home Mt. is Crystal Mountain, WA & obviously ski fro PNSA. Their coach is Alan Lauba.
A-man, please say hello to Alan from me when you see him this winter. I don't think I've seen him since our racing days. And tell him to look me up if he's ever in Vail.
post #52 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
A-man, please say hello to Alan from me when you see him this winter. I don't think I've seen him since our racing days. And tell him to look me up if he's ever in Vail.
I'll do that! Al is an absolutely great coach and is very enthusiastic and upbeat with the racers. He particularly gets all fired up at "Speed Events". He becomes like a kid in a candy store. We are very lucky to have him here. this is his 15th year at coaching CMAC, 10 of which he has been the Head coach!
post #53 of 56
I don't think Harald was ever talking of pulling the light foot back even with the other, but pulling it and holding it in relation to the other. This contraction of the hamstring(s) keeps the skis under the hips.
post #54 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by famattjr
I don't think Harald was ever talking of pulling the light foot back even with the other, but pulling it and holding it in relation to the other. This contraction of the hamstring(s) keeps the skis under the hips.
Agreed!
post #55 of 56
Getting back (perhaps only briefly) to the original topic of pulling the inside foot back at the turn, several observations:

1. LeMaster, in his slide shows, is quite careful to distinguish between two things: (A) the physical action on the hill you want the skier to perform (the effect) and (B) the words you use to describe the action to the athlete (the coaching, or self-coaching, that is most likely to get the athelete to perform the right way, but which is probably not literally what goes on, just the phrase most likely to get the athelete there.)

2. "Pull your inside foot back at the turn" is (B) above, a short phrase designed to get the althelete to ski much better. In my experience, when I used this mantra (I ski gates) it had the following profound effects: (A) more two-footed skiing, as without it I have a tendency sometimes to stand (almost or sometimes absolutely) completely on my outside ski; (B) weight forward earlier in the turn, with CM closer to being over ski tips, really critical in slalom gates, and a great idea most other places; (C) an athletic body position with flexed ankles and hips forward. It also seems to make my skiing quieter.

That having been said, I did have a couple of technical errors in my skiing that needed correcting/improving, an overly large lead change (old habits die hard, and I used to use a lot of counter/hip angulation in GS, and I'm newer to slalom where that technique is too slow...) and a tendency to not be forward enough at turn initiation.

But in defense of LeMaster, when he says "pull your inside foot back at turn initiation" he probably doesn't actually mean, do this as a Teutonic checklist item, but rather, tell yourself this as a mantra to produce better skiing.

sfdean.
post #56 of 56
One thing on the pull back or hold back issue, you have to realize that, as you increase edge angle, due to tipping and new attitude to the slope in a progressing turn, there is a strong tendency for the inside foot, under pressure from the hips lowering to the inside, to creep forward. Whether it needs to be held back or pulled back, depends on how much creep you have allowed. You'll know it's right when you feel the outside edge, way up at the tip of the new inside ski starting to bite the snow at the turn initiation. If you don't feel that, you've let it creep too far, or worse, you've actually whipped it ahead for a lead change (which in itself is an ineffective turning mechanism).
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