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It's going to feel bad... - Page 4

post #91 of 117
Quote:
This does point out the downside of only doing one type of activity to the exclusion of others. Even when doing it effectively the repeated movement patterns, while being correct for a given activity, doesn't insure that we maintain physical and neuralogical fitness. In fact, it can have a negative impact, as this ties directly into muscle recruitment or our muscle coreography and how doing one thing very effectively can lead to muscle and posture imbalances, which can eventually lead to less efficient execution of the one thing.
Ric, I don't get it. A champion practices his sport to the exclusion of others. That's how one becomes a champion.
post #92 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowDog
Disski, to me you are a prime example of this. Agree?
probably.... although I find it hard to compare to others - my skiing skills are a funny mix of levels... technical skills I have learnt are generally very good... innate responses (eg to being knocked off balance) are poor... this leaves a weird skill distribution that tends to confuse many instructors
post #93 of 117
Oh & Snowdog - remember that one of my big advances in skiing came when i spent a LOT of time over the summer skating... so that it is the continuous work on improving balance & stance & general ability to compensate for my physical deficit that allows me to gain more from the time I spend ski training....
post #94 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
Oh & Snowdog - remember that one of my big advances in skiing came when i spent a LOT of time over the summer skating... so that it is the continuous work on improving balance & stance & general ability to compensate for my physical deficit that allows me to gain more from the time I spend ski training....
That would make sense Disski. The two activities are very similar in movement patterns, balance and body positions. The major difference is the power source: self generated as opposed to gravity supplied, and the lack of a tip and tail to leverage fore/aft balance against which forces you remain even more balanced. It's like skiing in the summer. When I skate I can imagine I'm on snow and feel the same sensation feedback.
post #95 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
Ric, I don't get it. A champion practices his sport to the exclusion of others. That's how one becomes a champion.
I'm not too sure about that.... our AFL footballers most definitely do other things... that breaks up their training and builds wider skills...

They may have a focus on specific skills - but train with occassional wider skill sets too
post #96 of 117
Man, some of you guys are just complicating the hell out of learning to ski.

You really want to learn to ski? It's really not this hard. You don't have to be an intellectual, well studied in neurology and physiology, and an athletic phenom. Just put in the necessary time on the boards under the tutelage of a good instructor such as Nolo and she can most likely take you to upper 10 percentile of the skier populous just as you are. If you want to tweak it up from there, well, perhaps spending a little time off snow with Ric will help.

Sure, playing other sports and working out will make one stronger and will help one become more athletic, balanced, and agile; but only to a degree. If your not a great athlete by the time your 20, you won't be one at 30, regardless of the training you do. I hate to tell you that, but it’s just the way it is. After the initial motor development that takes place in childhood the direct benefits to skiing from all that unrelated cross training will not be that dramatic. Do it for fun, do it for health, do it to tweak your performance on skis a little, but don't get your hopes up that it will make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear.

And Nolo's right about the importance of sport specific focus. To be great there must be a single minded dedicated focus on the sport specific motor skills. Everything outside of that focus is secondary and supplementary.

Think about it Disski. This is the formula you used to get where you are. Dedicated and focused on snow training with the consistent feedback of top notch instructors, supplemented with off snow supportive activities, and the bulk of the off snow stuff being concentrated in the off season. Am I right?
post #97 of 117
I'm goin ice skating.
post #98 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowDog
If your not a great athlete by the time your 20, you won't be one at 30, regardless of the training you do. I hate to tell you that, but it’s just the way it is. After the initial motor development that takes place in childhood the direct benefits to skiing from all that unrelated cross training will not be that dramatic. .....
Am I right?[/color]
I'd say NO to that bit...
I'll never be a great athlete but...
Could not stand on 1 leg for count of 5 at 20 years of age (eyes open hands out)...
Can now easily stand on 1 leg for a minute when doing quad stretch.... (i have to concentrate but a minute is quite achievable)
Learnt to ski in late 30's... and a fair chunk of the balance improvement has come after that - due to diagnosis of disability by first instructor & focused on & off snow training from current instructor...
post #99 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowDog
And Nolo's right about the importance of sport specific focus. To be great there must be a single minded dedicated focus on the sport specific motor skills. Everything outside of that focus is secondary and supplementary.

Think about it Disski. This is the formula you used to get where you are. Dedicated and focused on snow training with the consistent feedback of top notch instructors, supplemented with off snow supportive activities, and the bulk of the off snow stuff being concentrated in the off season. Am I right?
Yes I am known for the amount of training I do on snow... in fact this season frustration is largely based around the fact I can no longer get sets of "drills" to train with outside lessons - I have been told I MUST just ski more unfocused time - to learn to relax on skis more.. & get my headspace right....

Yes bulk of off-snow is off-season... but I do not focus on the skiing to the exclusion of all else as Nolo suggests... I started learning to surf this summer - it does help my balance in general - and so my skiing... but I did it because it was FUN - I can say it may end up being more addictive than the ski bug.... NEITHER will cause exclusion of the other - they both train my brain to develop new connections - both will aid my body on its journey through this life - both are SUCH A COOL FEELING...
I love being able to direct what the results of body movement should be... I love the challenge of improving... I will never master either.... Similarly pilates, yoga, fitball, deep water aqua, gym work, beach running, stretches, balance work at home (ala SnowKarver's little training routine for disski) learning to ride a bike(previous summers challenge)

If I had to exclude all the others I think I would stop skiing...
post #100 of 117
Disski, I won't speak for Nolo, but I didn't interpret what she was saying as advocating total isolation from other athletic activities. I read it more as a comment on the importance of an elite athlete placing the bulk of his training focus on the motor skills required for his primary sport, with all outside physical activities secondary in intensity and done specifically to enhance performance in that primary sport. Her comment was in response to a contention by Ric that such intense sport specific focus could actually have a detrimental affect on performance in that primary sport. It was that interpretation I was seconding.



Separately: You the woman Disski. Great attitude. You go girl. This dogs impressed.
post #101 of 117
Thread Starter 
as usual this thread has morphed into a very different, yet loosely related subject.

so, let's summarize the takeaways to date...

thanks,
kiersten
post #102 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
Ric, I don't get it. A champion practices his sport to the exclusion of others. That's how one becomes a champion.

To the exclusion of all others left me no room to play....
post #103 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowDog
Separately: You the woman Disski. Great attitude. You go girl. This dogs impressed.
should I be scared?
post #104 of 117
Summary according to who kiersten?

Here's the correct one. (I'll try to stay uncharacteristically brief! ):


* Inefficient movements extensively repeated become habitual.

* The body and mind refine inefficient movements to their most efficient form

* Attempts to change habitualized movements are resisted by the body and mind.

* New movements feel strange.

* New movements become internalized through repetition

* While some movements are more efficient than others, the ability to perform all movements confidently, regardless of their efficiency, is desirable

* The more movements one can do, the easier new movements are learned.


That about sums up consensus points that relate to your original query. Sure took us a long time to get to that, didn't it? Second thoughts about the value of the subject based learning model Nolo? Whoops, I wavered again!
post #105 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
should I be scared?
Course not, I'm really a good dog, can't ya see my tail waggin?
post #106 of 117
The exclusion of others was Ric's terminology. SnowDog has correctly interpreted my usage.

I want to play scratch golf. I don't see it happening unless I spend a lot of time playing and practicing. Other sports/fitness activities may augment my practice regimen, but they won't substitute for it.
post #107 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowDog
If your not a great athlete by the time your 20, you won't be one at 30, regardless of the training you do.
Well, I can verify that. I wasn't a great athelete at 20, and I wasn't at 30. But I'm 34 now, so here's hoping I'm past that decade where you can't be great!
post #108 of 117
Nolo, if you're watching the Olympics, look out in the Womens Quad Sculls rowing, the British team includes Debbie Flood. She was a judo champion who started doing some rowing to improve her arms. Then she noticed she was good at rowing, made the switch, and is now in the Olympics.
post #109 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
The exclusion of others was Ric's terminology. SnowDog has correctly interpreted my usage.

I want to play scratch golf. I don't see it happening unless I spend a lot of time playing and practicing. Other sports/fitness activities may augment my practice regimen, but they won't substitute for it.
I've heard it said that to get from a 30 handicap to a 10 is relatively easy if you put in "the miles", sort of like skiing. I've known folks that did so in 2 or 3 seasons easily, just by playing 3 or 4 times a week, with a lesson or two thrown in for good measure.

3 seasons ago I played a whole lot of golf and my current handicap (no where near scratch, I might add!) is probably 6 or 7 stroked higher now than then. I play 9 holes a week now. Bonni hasn't played at all this summer---too busy with the house.

To get from a 10 to scratch requires way more time, energy and mileage than most folks CAN put in and still lead a real life.

It is entirely possible that even with the time too devote, one may never get to scratch.

Same can be said for skiing at a high level.
post #110 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
Ric, I don't get it. A champion practices his sport to the exclusion of others. That's how one becomes a champion.
Do you really think every champion practices their respective sport to the exclusion of others? Just look at the posture of the cyclists in the tour de France. Do you really think that these great champions don't accumulate a negative effect from what they practice?

Lets be realistic here. Sure we need to practice to get better, but if "all" we do is practice what will make us better for a particular activity, then there can be a downside and usually is. Is this such a hard concept to accept that we actully need to crosstrain? What I'm trying to say, is that good funtional fitness and symetry is the best foundation for sport specific training, and that if funtional fitness and symetry are neglected, then sport specific performance can very well suffer.

I also think that we do our profession a disservice if all use as a reference is the elite champion. For the rest of us Mortals these issues raise their head all the time. Sit in a chair 8 hours a day and you damn well better do something to compesate for the effect this has on your body. The same goes for swinging a hammer, or skiing or riding a bike.

Elvis Stoiko directcly credits his martial arts training for his skating performance. His trainer wrote a book about their journey. Later, RicB.
post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
The exclusion of others was Ric's terminology. SnowDog has correctly interpreted my usage.

I want to play scratch golf. I don't see it happening unless I spend a lot of time playing and practicing. Other sports/fitness activities may augment my practice regimen, but they won't substitute for it.
And I certainly never said substitute either. I used terms like enhace and build on.
post #112 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowDog
Man, some of you guys are just complicating the hell out of learning to ski.

You really want to learn to ski? It's really not this hard. You don't have to be an intellectual, well studied in neurology and physiology, and an athletic phenom. Just put in the necessary time on the boards under the tutelage of a good instructor such as Nolo and she can most likely take you to upper 10 percentile of the skier populous just as you are. If you want to tweak it up from there, well, perhaps spending a little time off snow with Ric will help.

Sure, playing other sports and working out will make one stronger and will help one become more athletic, balanced, and agile; but only to a degree. If your not a great athlete by the time your 20, you won't be one at 30, regardless of the training you do. I hate to tell you that, but it’s just the way it is. After the initial motor development that takes place in childhood the direct benefits to skiing from all that unrelated cross training will not be that dramatic. Do it for fun, do it for health, do it to tweak your performance on skis a little, but don't get your hopes up that it will make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear.

And Nolo's right about the importance of sport specific focus. To be great there must be a single minded dedicated focus on the sport specific motor skills. Everything outside of that focus is secondary and supplementary.

Think about it Disski. This is the formula you used to get where you are. Dedicated and focused on snow training with the consistent feedback of top notch instructors, supplemented with off snow supportive activities, and the bulk of the off snow stuff being concentrated in the off season. Am I right?
How about a little time on the snow with Ric addressing skiing skills and then leavng with some things to work with off the snow.
post #113 of 117
The thing about subject-centered learning is, it's done in public. Your thoughts and observations are taken up by others and interpreted, sometimes in unwelcome or unforeseen ways. You have to accept that different people may have different take-aways and welcome diversity, dissent, and the off-centrist view, because these can shine a different light on the subject and can lead to new insights.

Don't get mad or impatient because someone doesn't get it. That person is doing you a favor, by sharpening your thoughts and guiding them closer to the target.
post #114 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
The thing about subject-centered learning is, it's done in public. Your thoughts and observations are taken up by others and interpreted, sometimes in unwelcome or unforeseen ways. You have to accept that different people may have different take-aways and welcome diversity, dissent, and the off-centrist view, because these can shine a different light on the subject and can lead to new insights.

Don't get mad or impatient because someone doesn't get it. That person is doing you a favor, by sharpening your thoughts and guiding them closer to the target.
Nolo, I couldn't agree more. Hopefully I'm not coming across as mad or overly frustrated. I enjoy the challenge. I can be overly passionant and emotional though. It's the combination of creative and critical thinking that move things forward and keep it honest.

This medium leaves out such a large part of our communication that it is almost a skill unto itself. Later, RicB
post #115 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
How about a little time on the snow with Ric addressing skiing skills and then leavng with some things to work with off the snow.
That works.
post #116 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
The thing about subject-centered learning is, it's done in public. Your thoughts and observations are taken up by others and interpreted, sometimes in unwelcome or unforeseen ways. You have to accept that different people may have different take-aways and welcome diversity, dissent, and the off-centrist view, because these can shine a different light on the subject and can lead to new insights.
Yes, I agree here Nolo. Putting personal theories up to public test can provide new perspectives for the author to explore and there by serve as the catalyst for refinement of those theories. You just sometimes have to dig through a lot of muck to discover a gem. Regardless, the concept does have merit. My comment was more just a playfull way off pointing out that offen at the end of the process your left with nothing beyond what you had going in. That's ok though: every pan doesn't produce a nugget for the prospector, but that's not reason to stop prospecting.
post #117 of 117
Thread Starter 
No instructor (in any subject matter) has ALL of the answers ALL of the time. And, as science teaches us daily, the more we learn, the more we realize what we used to think was right isn't. Oftentimes that happens through discovery.

Building on Snowdog's summary (and thanks for spending the time to write it out - I see no one debated your conclusions) I'd like to add that a fundamental reason to perform multiple physical activities with mental alertness is the gift of new discoveries!

kiersten
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