or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

# The Gap - Page 2

Atomicman,

In a parallel turn with both skis enagaged in the snow surface in a carving mode the inside ski must be tipped a little more than the outside ski to carve a tighter arc. This can be accomplished by actively feeling yourself tip the inside foot more toward the little toe edge. I don't see how the pulling back of the inside foot will accomplish this. The idea you put forward of shortening the arc just makes no sense to me, the arc must be tighter not shorter. Prehapse its just the old trying to communicate with easily misunderstood words but could you explain your thinking a bit more.

yd
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ydnar Atomicman, In a parallel turn with both skis enagaged in the snow surface in a carving mode the inside ski must be tipped a little more than the outside ski to carve a tighter arc. The idea you put forward of shortening the arc just makes no sense to me, the arc must be tighter not shorter. yd
Ydnar, your first sentence: Very true. It also suggests that if one is attempting to carve both skis through a turn, then parallel shins are an impossiblity.

As to your second sentence: I can see what A-man is saying. A tighter arc is also a shorter arc. The smaller the radius of a circle, the smaller the circumference.

Finally, have you noticed that many WC race photos display an outside ski edge angle slightly greater than the inside ski edge angle? That would conflict with the idea of carving both skis through the turn. What's your take on this?

********************

Rusty, your example of the cover girl speaks to the difference between rotation/counter as a turning force, and as a stance/balance position. The same tool used in different manners for seperate tasks. When used as a turning force there's rotational torque involved. When used as a stance/balance position there should not.

FASTMAN
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Rusty, your example of the cover girl speaks to the difference between rotation/counter as a turning force, and as a stance/balance position. The same tool used in different manners for seperate tasks. When used as a turning force there's rotational torque involved. When used as a stance/balance position there should not.FASTMAN
That is a very good description. I don't know if anyone would agree, however, I have always differentiated between countered and counter rotating.

Countered being a stancee/balance term. A somewhat static position most often attributed to the dreaded "park and ride".

Counter-rotating or for that matter rotating involving as you describe a turning force.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ydnar Atomicman, I don't see how the pulling back of the inside foot will accomplish this. The idea you put forward of shortening the arc just makes no sense to me, the arc must be tighter not shorter. yd
Yd,

Now you know my quandary and my desire to see the articles.

Note: Let the record note there was no mention of the "n" word.
A tighter arc is a shorter arc. This is the same consept as to why your car has a differential. The inside wheel travels a shorter distance thru a turn than the outside wheel and this must be compensated for. Same concept with your ski. Also if you have excessive lead change or are scissored it is very awkward to maintain the additional edge angle you are speaking of, pulling your inside foot back does aid in maintaining more edge angle with the inside ski.
Rick, A-man,

I see the mix-up, I think of the arc in terms of degrees of arc you are thinking of it as distance covered in term of feet, yards, etc. Still, I don't see how pulling the foot back would shorten the distance that that ski/foot had to travel. Whether pulled back, pushed forward, carving or skidding (parellel or diverging for that matter) the ski foot has to travel the same distance.

Fastman,

I have noted the greater edge angle of the outside ski that you note and actually have a veriety of ideas on that subject, here are a few:

Since it is the outside ski that is really doing the important work here keeping it engaged in the snow surface in the most efficent manner is what really counts. The racer goes faster if the outside ski is properly carving even if the lightly engaged inside ski is skidding a bit.

The outside ski can be tipped to a greater edge angle than the inside ski because of our anatomical structure this allows for a tighter carve and a one ski carve to get a shorter radius turn is faster than a two footed skid to get the same radius.

To maintain the long strong stance of the outside leg it is necessary to get the inside foot/leg out of the way. Again, if this requires a limited amount of skid to occor on the inside ski so be it, the gains outweigh the loss.

The important thing in my mind is that the inside ski is kept as parallel to the outside ski as possible. When I attempt to ski at that level I really feel a difference in the drag produced by the inside ski if it starts to diverge as opposed to the minimal drag I feel if I keep it parallel. I think this has to do with the way the ski engages and skids over the snow surface if it is pointed in the direction of travel as opposed to how it engages and skids if is is pointed slightly off the direction of travel. Applying K.I.S.S.. A ski, whether carving or skidding, is faster if it is always pointing in the direction of travel. So a skier is faster if both skis are always pointed in the direction of travel.

Rusty,

Here is the point A-man is trying to make. Many skiers tend to advance the inside foot as they turn. Whether it is tied to anatomy or to our mind being in a 'turn that way' mode the foot will tend to point into the turn producing a diverging ski which is a slower ski. Keeping the foot back helps prevent this. Fact is, I don't think that A-man actually pulls his foot back but just maintains a dynamic tension that keeps the foot from advancing. Something else that this does is to keep the inside foot under the hip so that when the transition occors that foot is in a position, in relation to the CoM, to begin to function immedeately rather than having to adjust its position in relation to the CoM to get into the most efficent stance.

Pulling the inside foot back or pushing the outside foot forward basicly accomplish the same thing. Which to recommend depends on whether I see the excessive tip lead coming as a result of the inside foot being advanced or the outside ankle being flexed to much. I usually see the inside foot being advanced.

yd
I suggest we are in fact getting somewhere.

I have long maintained one of THE deadend moves in skiing is the tendency to push the inside foot forward at turn initiation as opposed to merely tipping it.

Hence, I love the term put forth by Ydnar calling for "dynamic tension".

I have a lot of film of student and instructors who attempt to initiate a carved turn and their first move with their inside foot is to push the foot forward four inches while turning it. The skid starts, there is no tipping, and it's a downward spiral.

I wish I had the ability to download the shots I have of this transpiring because it's a big focus of my teaching.

I also see A-man's point and prefer to think of it in terms of tension as opposed to "pulling the foot back". In reality, probably, just different ways of explaining the same thing.

I recall Burt Skall in a clinic saying, "if the inside foot is moving forward it isn't tipping".

I'll toss out another expression put forth by Bob B to describe inside leg vs outside leg angles. "The inside leg is where the activity is and the outside leg is where the action is."
OK Guys, I hunted around the web a little bit and found a little article that highlights some of Olle Larsson's theory in regard to retraction of and pull back of the inside foot as well as parallel shafts, the fact the the outside ski must travel a farther distance than the inside ski in a turn and another point I don't agree with many people on and that is a neutral fore/aft stance. I like to ski forward as this article & many Olle has written prescribes. Neutral is fine on flat slopes, but the steeper the pitch the more forward I like to ski. I prefer my skis having to catch up with my body not my body chasing my skis down the hill! Anyway much of what I have been saying in this post is directly or indirectly validated by what is written at http://www.rmmskiracing.org/articles...Sharpening.pdf

Have at it again ski freaks! Bly me , I'll take it like a man!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-man!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick ...Another gross error in the first article has to do with turn placement in a race course. While making 70 percent of the direction change prior to the gate (as the article advocates) is a safe line, it's not a fast line, as the article suggests. The apex of a turn is the point in which 50 percent of the turn is done. It's also the furthest most lateral point of the arc. If the apex is not placed at the gate then the racer has gone further outside the rise line of the gate than necessary. Excluding deteriorating course conditions, rhythm changes, or terrain abnormalities, placing the apex at the gate is always the fastest line...

Tom / PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by PhysicsMan Whaddya tawkin' about? THIS is how you're supposed to run gates! Tom / PM
Tom,,,, looks like a Twardokins experiment !

FASTMAN
LOL. Speaking about that family, I wonder just how much Eva was around when he was doing his instrumented sled experiments (she might have been too young), and what the interpersonal dynamics were with her dad. You ever hear any scuttlebut / stories about them?

...back to regular programming ...

Tom / PM
Atomicman,

I enjoyed the article.

It mentions two guys (Donnie Roth and Tony Sears) who have taught and/or trained a great deal at Eldora. Donnie taught at Eldora three or four years ago and is now a RM demo team member teaching at Aspen. Tony Sears is a former Europa Cup skier and arguabely one of the best skiers in the state. He is also a heck of a nice guy. It even mentions a bunch of our runs run at Eldora (LaBelle, Jolly Jug, Corona, Powderhorn). It's strange the way it's written as though everyone will know these runs. We're a little mountain by western standards and if you aren't from Boulder you probably have passed by to go to the big resorts.

I'm also a big fan of Ron LeMaster who is a friend and neighbor here in Boulder.

The funny thing is I have no idea who the author is and he says he taught at Copper. Bob B, Mike M, Ski&Golf, or EBrown may know him.

Again great article.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ydnar Fastman, I have noted the greater edge angle of the outside ski that you note and actually have a veriety of ideas on that subject, here are a few: Since it is the outside ski that is really doing the important work here keeping it engaged in the snow surface in the most efficent manner is what really counts. The racer goes faster if the outside ski is properly carving even if the lightly engaged inside ski is skidding a bit. The outside ski can be tipped to a greater edge angle than the inside ski because of our anatomical structure this allows for a tighter carve and a one ski carve to get a shorter radius turn is faster than a two footed skid to get the same radius. To maintain the long strong stance of the outside leg it is necessary to get the inside foot/leg out of the way. Again, if this requires a limited amount of skid to occor on the inside ski so be it, the gains outweigh the loss. yd
Excellent comments Ydnar, I very much concur with your thoughts on the topic.

I would add a couple ideas of my own to your fine list:

Non parallel shins are strong evidence of the existence of knee angulation. Typically, knee angulation is employed as a means of fine tuning balance, and this is sometimes the purpose for the usage of it we see in WC photos.

Even when outside knee angulation is being used, parallel shins can be maintained (to a degree) by reverse angulation the inside knee, but doing so places the inside leg in a similar weakened state as the angulated outside leg, so there's a definite benefit to maintaining lateral alignment of the inside leg if possible.

Parallel shins gain importance when hip angulation is the balance tool being used, because it provides the strong lateral alignment in the inside leg that exists in the outside leg. If the inside leg is allowed to be lazy, and is not kept in lateral alignment, then its strength potential is compromised.

Beyond balance usages, knee angulation is used to make fine adjustments to edge angle, or to acquire edge angles unattainable through the exclusive use of hip angulation. Watch Bodie employ some of his patented high edge angles. His outside knee is almost dragging on the snow. He could not achieve such angles without angulating the knee because the inside leg and hip would hit the snow well before the desired edge angle was reached. It wouldn't be boot-out, it would be butt-out.

FASTMAN
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rusty Guy "The inside leg is where the activity is and the outside leg is where the action is."
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Watch Bodie employ some of his patented high edge angles. His outside knee is almost dragging on the snow. He could not achieve such angles without angulating the knee because the inside leg and hip would hit the snow well before the desired edge angle was reached. It wouldn't be boot-out, it would be butt-out.FASTMAN
I agree totally. There's a nice example here:
http://www.wildnatureimages.com/2004...Alpine%201.htm
(Bode has even helpfully painted lines on his shinguards to highlight the fact that he does NOT have parallel shins.)
In modern carving technique, "A-frame" has become a taboo, and "parallel shins" a holy shibboleth. In reality, what top ski-racers are actually doing is a little more flexible and adaptable than what is sometimes preached as "perfect" technique.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Martin Bell I agree totally. There's a nice example here:http://www.wildnatureimages.com/2004...Alpine%201.htm (Bode has even helpfully painted lines on his shinguards to highlight the fact that he does NOT have parallel shins.) In modern carving technique, "A-frame" has become a taboo, and "parallel shins" a holy shibboleth. In reality, what top ski-racers are actually doing is a little more flexible and adaptable than what is sometimes preached as "perfect" technique.
First off what you see in this shot is not the "A-Frame" that I think has become a taboo. The A-Frame I think is taboo is where the inside ski has little edge angle and the outside ski has a lot of edge angle. Similar to how we used to ski old straight skis in the day! I think what FASTMAN is saying or at least this is what I think is happening: Bode's inside knee can't move inside any further than you see in the picture. It is as far as it can go and he has extreme edge angle of his inside ski. It looks like he has some knee angulation going on in his outside leg. Also notice how far forward he is driving! Although Bode is a very very fast racer. I don't think it has alot to do with the fact that his shins don't happen to be perfectly parallel in this shot, it is more that he has the ability to carve sooner at the top of his turn than many other racers. Tjose who carve the most and slide the least win! I also don't really like using Bode as an example since his is so inconsistent and he often employs elements in his technique that only he can pull off & then not all the time. I like to use Von Gruenigen as an example. He was at the top of the GS game for many years and in 12 years at that level finished ever single run and race he was in.
Fabulous technique and consistency!

One more thing which surprises me, it looks like he may be skidding here. Normally a purely carved ski doesn't throw up all that spray?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rusty Guy Atomicman, I enjoyed the article. It mentions two guys (Donnie Roth and Tony Sears) who have taught and/or trained a great deal at Eldora. Donnie taught at Eldora three or four years ago and is now a RM demo team member teaching at Aspen. Tony Sears is a former Europa Cup skier and arguabely one of the best skiers in the state. He is also a heck of a nice guy. It even mentions a bunch of our runs run at Eldora (LaBelle, Jolly Jug, Corona, Powderhorn). It's strange the way it's written as though everyone will know these runs. We're a little mountain by western standards and if you aren't from Boulder you probably have passed by to go to the big resorts. I'm also a big fan of Ron LeMaster who is a friend and neighbor here in Boulder. The funny thing is I have no idea who the author is and he says he taught at Copper. Bob B, Mike M, Ski&Golf, or EBrown may know him. Again great article.
Thanks Rusty, I wish I could find the Olle Larsson article the he was referring to!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by PhysicsMan Whaddya tawkin' about? THIS is how you're supposed to run gates!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18/18_6_109.gif Tom / PM
Is that a "blocking" pole plant?:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ydnar Rick, A-man, Still, I don't see how pulling the foot back would shorten the distance that that ski/foot had to travel. Whether pulled back, pushed forward, carving or skidding (parellel or diverging for that matter) the ski foot has to travel the same distance. Fastman, The racer goes faster if the outside ski is properly carving even if the lightly engaged inside ski is skidding a bit. The outside ski can be tipped to a greater edge angle than the inside ski because of our anatomical structure this allows for a tighter carve and a one ski carve to get a shorter radius turn is faster than a two footed skid to get the same radius. To maintain the long strong stance of the outside leg it is necessary to get the inside foot/leg out of the way. Again, if this requires a limited amount of skid to occor on the inside ski so be it, the gains outweigh the loss. The important thing in my mind is that the inside ski is kept as parallel to the outside ski as possible. When I attempt to ski at that level I really feel a difference in the drag produced by the inside ski if it starts to diverge as opposed to the minimal drag I feel if I keep it parallel. I think this has to do with the way the ski engages and skids over the snow surface if it is pointed in the direction of travel as opposed to how it engages and skids if is is pointed slightly off the direction of travel. Applying K.I.S.S.. A ski, whether carving or skidding, is faster if it is always pointing in the direction of travel. So a skier is faster if both skis are always pointed in the direction of travel. Rusty, Here is the point A-man is trying to make. Many skiers tend to advance the inside foot as they turn. Whether it is tied to anatomy or to our mind being in a 'turn that way' mode the foot will tend to point into the turn producing a diverging ski which is a slower ski. Keeping the foot back helps prevent this. Fact is, I don't think that A-man actually pulls his foot back but just maintains a dynamic tension that keeps the foot from advancing. Something else that this does is to keep the inside foot under the hip so that when the transition occors that foot is in a position, in relation to the CoM, to begin to function immedeately rather than having to adjust its position in relation to the CoM to get into the most efficent stance. Pulling the inside foot back or pushing the outside foot forward basicly accomplish the same thing. Which to recommend depends on whether I see the excessive tip lead coming as a result of the inside foot being advanced or the outside ankle being flexed to much. I usually see the inside foot being advanced. yd
ydnar, Actually the outside ski does have to travel faster or the inside ski slower to stay parallel. I can prove this in many different ways.

1. The differential on car slows the inside wheel in a turn to allow some slippage so you don't bind up your axle because it has a shorter distance to travel than the outside wheel. Have you ever tried to drive a vehicle with 4-wheel drive engaged & make a turn on dry pavement. This very subject is what causes that!

2. the farther you get laterally from the apex of a turn the more distance you have to travel to keep up with moving object closer to the Apex. For example, Runner's on a track, boat race, horse race, you get the picture; Why is the inside lane an advantage? Because it is a shorter distance around the track. the farther you get from the inside lane the faster you have to travel to keep up because you must travel a longer distance.

Now relating this to your skis, you inside ski has to go slower or carve a tighter arc than your outside ski to stay parallel. The reason I don't like the consept and don't use accelaerating or pushing my outside foot forward is that it works against my forward body position and maintianing pressure on my boot cuff and keeping my ankle flexed. I don't like my feet or foot in front of my hips. I want my body to go forward towards the apex of the next turn down the hill. Now that is not to say Bode and Killy didn't and do push both feet out in fromn of the at times to get additional acceleration from their tails, but that is normally at the end of a turn not in the belly. read the part in both articles that Olle wrote about forward body position. Pulling your inside foot back allow you to pressure the fron of the boot and turn your inside ski on a smaller arc thereby reducing the skis speed which helps you stay parallel.

Yes you want your inside ski to continue in the direction of travel. If it is skiiding and your outside ski is carving it s moving in the wrong direction. You will never convince me that a slight wedge is faster than both skis tracking , even if there is very little weight on the inside ski. Alos, I have observed skiers that don't pull their foot back and they actually get into a backwards "V"
The inside ski skidding with the tip too far inside compared to the outside.

A little later in your post after saying it's OK to skid your inside ski you say it faster to keep ypour ski parallel. I submit that if your outside ski is carving and your inside ski is skidding it is nearly impossible to keep them parallel because your outside ski would travelin on a shorter arc than your inside ski?

Well I've rambled on enough, but the article I posted the link to that rusty comeented positively on on the 2nd page pretty much agrees with ehat I have been trying to say.

Have a great day!

Over & out!

A-man
See what happens when you don't pull your inside foot back! http://www.wildnatureimages.com/2004...Alpine%203.htm

just kidding
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman The A-Frame I think is taboo is where the inside ski has little edge angle and the outside ski has a lot of edge angle. Similar to how we used to ski old straight skis in the day!
You mean like this:
As you can see, Bode is not the first skier to attempt to use high edge angle on the outside ski - although I think Ingemar might be about to experience some boot-out here. And note the totally unweighted inside ski - not much need to pull the inside foot back if it's off the ground anyway!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman I like to use Von Gruenigen as an example. He was at the top of the GS game for many years and in 12 years at that level finished ever single run and race he was in.
Interesting choice - like Bode, he often exhibits (or exhibited) non-parallel shins.
http://www.mvg.ch/images/MvGact1gr.jpg
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rusty Guy "The inside leg is where the activity is and the outside leg is where the action is."
http://www.valgerola.it/images/giorgio_meeting.jpg
The guy in this shot certainly discovered that fact!
Whatcha might call bisecting your line, eh, Martin?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Martin Bell Interesting choice - like Bode, he often exhibits (or exhibited) non-parallel shins.http://www.mvg.ch/images/MvGact1gr.jpg
In both your example's they are at the absolute maximum inside edge angle without dragging their
A_ _ on the ground. you can also see how much the inside foot is retracted.

Martin, if you can ski with this much inclination & edge angle, I give you permission to not have parallel shins. But if you can't, I will get out my compass & make sure you measure perfectly parallel
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick
Want it clear that is a Barnesism
Not sure if it helps at all but...

I went through a stage of having lots of people tell me to pull back the foot... then myb instructor realised that if he told me to keep the pelvis strong so that it rotated forward through the turn I had no need of the foot pulling back thing (which I was really bad at anyway)....

Maybe something to do with Ydnar's functional tension I think... he or Ric B may have better description of what that does.
OK, I've got another very reliable source that says "Pull your inside footback. For those of you who have not been there this is a great site www.ronlemaster.com. I found the following in the presentations link box on the sites Homepage.

The following presentation http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentat...omb-1-2004.pdf slide 24!!! I have now quoted 2 of the most analytic ski folk out there that say pull the inside foot back!

Also, FASTMAN, slide 20 & 21 show the same skier in the same turn. this proves to me the steepnes of the slope has nothing to do with the point created in the inside knee. It is caused by inclination (even on a fairly flat slope and retraction of the inside foot.

Do you guys believe me now?

Inclinate, pull your inside foot back get countered and get your skis out from under you laterally retract to get forward and let 'em rip!

If need be I am sure I can come up with a few more sources endorsing pullback of your inside foot!

Over & out!

Atomicman
A-man,

Ron's photos contradict his own statements. Look at Forsyth in frame 22. This is the type of shot angle (side view) I've said before that one must observe to truly know if there is tip lead present.

In this shot Forsyth is clearly displaying significant tip lead. Tip lead is the norm at the WC level. It provides the strength found through rotational alignment, which is characterized by the shoulders, hips and feet on the same rotational plane.

Ron says in his narrative that the inside and outside ankle should have similar amounts of ankle flexion, and I very much agree with that. However, pulling a foot back increases ankle flexion. Look again at Forsyth. Imagine the amount ankle flexing she would have to do to pull her foot back far enough to eliminate tip lead. I doubt if her boots have enough flexion capacity to even allow it. She'd have to lift the tail of her ski off the snow to make it happen.

The montage in frame 25 provides more evidence of what I'm saying here (see the final image)

Sorry A-man, but the whole concept is absurd. Pulling the foot back and eliminating tip lead puts the body in unnecessarily contorted and strength compromising positions. Like equal shin angles, this is just another of the fallacies being promoted as holly grail by those who misinterpret what the best in the world are doing and why.

FASTMAN
Another thought:

This foot back, no tip lead thing is much easier to do by novice carvers at the typical low edge angles they employ because the need for a countered position is much less. With no/minimal counter, no/minimal tip lead is what's required to create rotational alignment.

This is why the fallacy holds up so well when promoted on the recreational level.

FASTMAN
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Return Home
Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching