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Get off those edges. - Page 13

post #361 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
. Both tibias are bent forward to almost the same degree.

!
ummm so when was the inside ski pulled backwards without flexing the ankle?
post #362 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Here is what I'm suggesting depicted by Bob Barnes in animated fashion;

http://ourworld.cs.com/BBRNZ/Backpedal+3.gif
Rusty, I've seen this by Bbob before and think it is a great animation. But it seems to me it is more about skiing over the bumps than around them and carving through the troughs. Of course you should use this technique when going up and over some bumps, but I generally only do that when I lose my line or a trough is too deep and I need to exit up & over a bump or 2. I don't really feel the backpedaling thin nearly as much in the troughs!

Make any sense?
post #363 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
ummm so when was the inside ski pulled backwards without flexing the ankle?
Never!!
post #364 of 378
Atomicman:

Kinda late to the party here as I lost interest in this "Get off those edges" topic back on about page 2. Don't know what prompted me to peek in here tonight, but it's definitely a different thread than how it started.

Anyway, this thread (Don't lean on the front? http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...1&page=1&pp=30 ) back in February might interest you.

I'm certainly not going to speak for RicB or SnowDog, but this is how I interpret what they're getting at. If pressure, edging, & steering are managed accurately throughout the turn, you will progress thru the turn to fluidly arrive at (and pass thru) the point where you are in the position you are describing. As compared to, ending a turn in one position and now having to pull back your foot and assume a new position to start the new turn. Please ....no flaming! I'm not suggesting that this is what you are doing. Simply that I can see this being understood from the descriptions, and the assertions that this movement is a correction being made at "a certain point".

Personally, I've had better luck experimenting with this when thinking of closing the ankle and the tension it creates ...as pulling or pushing one foot or the other back or forward didn't work out to well ....probably just the way I interpret it. In most cases I'm more comfortable with a more neutral loading, but Rob and Weems got me thinking about this a lot last season and I'm still working it out. Ultimately, I imagine it'll just become one of the tools in the box!

Best regards,

Chris

post #365 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Rusty, I've seen this by Bbob before and think it is a great animation. But it seems to me it is more about skiing over the bumps than around them and carving through the troughs. Of course you should use this technique when going up and over some bumps, but I generally only do that when I lose my line or a trough is too deep and I need to exit up & over a bump or 2. I don't really feel the backpedaling thin nearly as much in the troughs!

Make any sense?
Yes

Flexion is due to......a bump. As that comes at you pushing the feet forward helps to maintain balance.

You seem to equate this with a zipperline type approach and I would simply suggest it is a tactic worth employing with any line.

I also have to question how much "carving" is going on in bumps. Are skis being tipped and edges engaged? Sure. I've never seen anyone, however, carving in a manner that I think of it on groomed snow or a race course.
post #366 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Rusty, I relly appreciate your response.

I also appreciate what Bob says and know he is well respected in the ski community but can't agree with him here. To say that shaped ski don't work and you shouldn't be on the cuff of your boot at certain points I just can't buy.

I know Bob is a big proponent of very centered skiing but the skis I have always skied on don't work well that way. Now i skied on a K2 Mod-X once for a weekend and that is the only way they worked, centered. The tips folded damn near in half if I skied them like a Volkl or Atomic. I do think Bob's comment is an over simplification. I think there is definetly some difference in how different brands ski and even models wwithin a line as far as fore/aft pressure.

I am more in the Larsson camp on this whole issue. Olle talks about this all the time and I am sure you must have read the repeated articles he has written in Ski Racing where he has mentioned initiating with the forbody and assuming a forward position at the beginning of the turn!

So are you saying what Larsson wrote is incorrect. Although you saw ehat the skier's were doing in the photos. Definetly forward in places!

Also, I didn't see where Snowdog said that forward pressure to engage the forebody of the ski at the beginning of the turn will cause skidding tail.
I just don't find this to be true. I think that has more to do with being scissored, leaning in or not having enopugh weight on your outside ski at the top of the turn.
Bob would be the first to say question/quarrel with everything the guy says. He loves disagreement.

Where does Bob say "shaped skis don't work".

I ski at least twenty days a year with Bob. He did not say in the quote I posted nor has he ever said to not "be on the front of your boot". Last year Bob switched from a long relationship with Elan/Dolomite to Fischer. He skied an RX8 and the WC Slalom.

There is a difference between your leg, "pressuring or levering" the front of your boot and your leg touching it. You can "be on the front of your boot" without pushing on it.

Stand on skis and just start to lean forward. Lean far enough and the tails of the ski will come off the ground. Again I ask you the question and I think Bob Barnes hints at it....why engage half a ski?

I know this is going to make you angry. The article you are quoting is from 2000. What was the average turning radius/length of a slalom ski during the 1999 season.

IMHO advocating pressuring the front of the boot is inherently obsolete teaching.
post #367 of 378
It doesn't make me angry at all Rusty and I know it is from 2000 that is why I brought up more recent articles written in Ski Racing last season by Larsson. I have not been able to find them in any archives, but might have them laying around the house. I don't endorse skiing with 1/2 ski. I just think you start forward and progressively engage the rest of the ski. I think you can do that without skidding. One more thought, the steeper the slope the more forward you must be to stay over your ski. True?

And I guess I mispoke it was Joubert and he said skis don't work well that way. I don't agree!

By the way, I think Bob Barnes used to teach at our home mountain.

Over & out!
post #368 of 378
A-man,

That was the other Bob Barnes.

yd
post #369 of 378
That animation reminds me of "the virtual bump" as the skis come back to the body and cross the CM. I've talked with other coaches about it for many years(Scott Wilson comes to mind, maybe Olle too). I've read about it recently but can't remember where.
post #370 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar
A-man,

That was the other Bob Barnes.

yd
I'll tell you guys something funny. Bob Barnes #1 has Bob Barnes #2's autograph on his ski boots.

Maybe one should start going by Robert or Bobby
post #371 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
There is a difference between your leg, "pressuring or levering" the front of your boot and your leg touching it. You can "be on the front of your boot" without pushing on it...

IMHO advocating pressuring the front of the boot is inherently obsolete teaching.
I know Bob B advocates standing dead in the center with no forward or rearward leverage, but I think that overstates the case a little. It's a little like telling someone to ski with no lead change- it may help them ski better if they try it, but in fact it's not really possible.

The fact is the new skis require less of everything: less angulation and less counter, which leads to less lead change; and much less forward pressure is needed to engage the tips. But that doesn't mean NO forward pressure is needed. The biggest advantage of the new skis may be that the amount of forward pressure required is well within the capability of most average skiers, much less than was required to control straight skis.

If you are touching the front of the boot with any pressure at all, you are using some leverage on the front of the ski. The best athletes still use lots of leverage, but that may be beyond the ability of most of us. Just like the direction "ski with no lead change," the direction "ski with no leverage" probably helps most skiers use a little less, and get the best performance from the new skis, but it's probably not a totally accurate technical description of the very best, most athletic skiing.

Engaging the front of the ski can control speed, and it's a pretty high skill technique for that purpose. It also has its uses in a race course: even F1 cars have brakes. The speed control mostly comes from the front of the ski, both from friction and from the energy required to bend the ski. The energy stored in the ski can help acceleration when the ski rebounds. The tails may skid, but if they're lightly loaded they don't dump much speed.

I don't think there are any "obsolete" techniques. Some may be less useful than before, but they're still there when we need them.

Regards, John
post #372 of 378
In the end it is all about where and how we need to be standing over our skis. In changeing terrain it's not to hard to see, when viewed staticaly from the side, that our feet will be in a different position relative to our core.


I see a big difference between saying something is situational or skier specific (read corrective), and saying that we can and should ski this way all the time, as in a fundamental of skiing. I can accept that you don't see it that way though, and we could all be wrong within a given situation or view window. Later, RicB
post #373 of 378
Quote:
I'll tell you guys something funny. Bob Barnes #1 has Bob Barnes #2's autograph on his ski boots.

Maybe one should start going by Robert or Bobby
Who's #1?

Bob Barnes, who was on the D-Team for several years, goes by "Barney."
post #374 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
In the end it is all about where and how we need to be standing over our skis. In changeing terrain it's not to hard to see, when viewed staticaly from the side, that our feet will be in a different position relative to our core.


I see a big difference between saying something is situational or skier specific (read corrective), and saying that we can and should ski this way all the time, as in a fundamental of skiing. I can accept that you don't see it that way though, and we could all be wrong within a given situation or view window. Later, RicB
Right On!!
post #375 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdowling
I know Bob B is advocates standing dead in the center with no fprward or rearward leverage, but I think that overstates the case a little. It's a little like telling someone to ski with no lead change- it may help them ski better if they try it, but in fact it's not really possibel.

The fact is the new skis require less of everything: less angulation and less counter, which leads to less lead change; and much less forward pressure is needed to engage the tips. But that doesn't mean NO forward pressure is needed. The biggest advantage of the new skis may be that that amount of forward pressure required is well within the capability of most average skiers, much less than was required to control straight skis..

If you are touching the front of the boot with any pressure at all, you are using some leverage on the front of the ski. The best athletes still use lots of leverage, but that may be beyond the abaility of most of us. Just like the direction "ski with no lead change," the direction "ski with no leverage" probably helps most skiers use a little less, and get the best performance from the new skis, but it's probably not a totally accurate technical description of the very best, most athletic skiing.

Engaging the front of the ski can control speed, and it's a pretty high skill technique for that purpose. It also has it's uses in a race course: even F1 cars have brakes. The speed control mostly comes from the front of the ski, both from friction and from the energy required form bending the ski. The energy stored in the ski can help acceleration when the ski rebounds. The tails may skid, but if they're lightly loaded they don't dump much speed.

I don't think there are any "obsolete" techniques. Some may be less useful than before, but they're still there when we need them.

Regards, John
John , That was Great!!!
post #376 of 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
Who's #1?

Bob Barnes, who was on the D-Team for several years, goes by "Barney."
I should have said A and B

I will add I've always been a fan of the the big purple guy
post #377 of 378
Rusty,

Try BB 1 and BB A. That will clear up a little of the confusion.

yd
post #378 of 378
Ydnar - surely it is B1 & B2 & they both wear blue striped pyjamas?
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