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# Get off those edges. - Page 12

I had a conversation with Ron, at the 2001 Coaches Acadamy, about the inside ski making a tighter radius and the parallel shin thing(that's what my "pet peeve" is about). I also included canting angle in the mix.
There were coaches from the USST there that said "if shins are parallel edge angles are equal and arcs are equal". I proved that the arcs were different by carving a full railroad track circle (about 20 yards across) at the base of the Pine Martin lift. Two concentric circles. The inside one with about a foot smaller radius. I'm canted two degrees negative, that means when my shins are parallel my inside ski has four degrees more edge angle than the outside.
My question to Ron was: Since WC skiers are often canted positive and leave two very deep ruts, often almost 2 feet apart, how do they do that with parallel shin?
We didn't have the time to go into it in depth and he suggested reading his book and e-mailing if I couldn't figure it out.
The conclusion I came to is pretty much what Atomicman said about pressuring the ski farther towards the tip (where the initial steering angle is greater). On snow testing has born this out for me. The sensation I get is that of pulling the foot back to engage the tip more.
A side note on this:
At the same acadamy, while being "examined" by Dave Galusha and Dave Merriman, they asked, "does the foot really go back?" I answered, "no, everything is going forward, it's just re-positioned in relation to the center of mass"(per The Nuts and Bolts of Skiing, by Rom Le Master). They bought it, I passed.

We can argue physics all day but Joubert's last book was Skiing an Art A Technique. Carving a turn is more like playing a violin than using a precision tool(I don't play the violin but I'm very good with precision tools). The stuff we're talking about here is where the "art" comes in.
SLATZ:

Thanks so much!!!! I knew I wasn't nuts!
No one is wrong. Most everyone's points are valid, it's just a difference in preception.
That's why I don't get into this type of thing too often.

Another footnote:
daslider made an explanation of "centrifugal force" back on page 5, I think it was, about how if the snow "quits pushing back"(another Ron L term) you won't fall to the outside of the turn(you stop turning and go straight in the direction you're pointed). I've been trying to explain that to ski instructors for 20 years. Most of them just don't get it even when I draw diagrams with arrows and everthing. Ron uses a bowl with a ball bearing rolling around the rim (here in New Glarus the Swiss us a coin as part of their "act") to demonstrate the physics involved in carving a turn.
The problem seems to be the momentum these things get as they are talked about without being tied to the fundamentals. They get a life of their own and suddenly everyone is skiing to look a certain way,,,even feet, or perfectly parallel shins without understanding what it really is they are trying to accomplish. Then it becomes more about a look than functional movements. This can be confusing to students and instructors alike. Later, RicB.
Slatz, just to bring what you said about the foot not really coming back but everthing moving forward into this, I see this as being the info that's is commonly not understood by students or left out by insructors. How their CoM position on their skis relates to getting the most from their skis isn't really addressed by simply having them pull their inside foot back, and it doesn't nessasarily lead to long term change or how to apply this to all mountain skiing. I get a lot of students that have been told "inside foot back" is the way to ski, but only a small portion of them really understand why or have ownership of it. same can be said for parallel shafts. Later, RicB.
RicB
That's why my eyes glaze over when I read discussions about "how far" to pull it back. It's a feeling and part of the "art" of skiing.
My answer when someone asks me "how far?" is: "Until it turns"
Seems to me all these techniques are used to help accomplish a goal that is simple to verbalize but difficult to execute.

That goal is: confident balanced, controlled, cleanly carved turns, on any slope, in any conditions.

Just like any discipline, Pitching, trumpet playing, tennis you use the techniques with your own style to accomplish the goal. I don't necessarily think it is about "cookie cutter" skiers.

But it is about confident balanced, controlled, cleanly carved turns, on any slope, in any conditions.

On groomed slopes anyway if you're scissored, A-framed and out of balance, you are not not confident, are out of control & sliding your turns not carving them.
I see the goal as: confident balanced, controlled, cleanly skied turns, on any slope, in any conditions. I see carving as just a small part of skiing. On my hill, rare is the student that comes to a lesson wanting to learn how to lay trenches, and common is the student that comes wanting to ski off the groom into the bumps, powder, and steeps. So I feel that how these fundamentals apply to all our skiing and developing a funtional dynamic stance most important for myself and my students. Carving seems to be the end goal to often these days.

Somethnig I did notice in the pictures in Lemaster's article in your other thread on this was that the carving tracks were very one ski tracks, they weren't dual tracks, or trenchs. How does this dovetail into your inside ski needing to carve position? What I see seems to be at odds with what I've read in various posts and leaves me a little confused. Later, RicB.
What I observed in slalom courses that were being skied by elite (20 FIS or less) athletes were, two "trenches" about two feet apart and about 3-4 inches deep(after the top seed had run in pretty hard packed snow). They started at about the fall line or a little before and went to the end of the turn. GS turns were more outside ski dominant. I would assume due to higher speeds and G forces.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB Somethnig I did notice in the pictures in Lemaster's article in your other thread on this was that the carving tracks were very one ski tracks, they weren't dual tracks, or trenchs. How does this dovetail into your inside ski needing to carve position? What I see seems to be at odds with what I've read in various posts and leaves me a little confused. Later, RicB.
There's a lot of misunderstanding about what needs to be done with the inside ski. Even with shape skis, it's still most important to balance over the outside ski. The difference is that modern technique allows a more progressive redistribution of pressure form one ski to the other, but it still results in most of the weight on the outside ski in high speed turns.

There are a few simple reasons why most of the weight goes to the outside ski. First, you can more comfortably balance on the big toe side of your foot than on your little toe side. You can also carry much more weight on an extended leg than you can on a fully flexed leg. At the high edge angles required in racing, the inside ski will boot out before the outside ski. Even the most flexible athletes cannot effectively maintain parallel shins when their inside leg is fully flexed. All those things mean that almost all the skier's weight ends up on the outside ski at the apex of the turns you see in the LeMaster pictures.

The whole idea that both skis should carve continually is way overdone. The important thing is to maintain balance, and to keep the inside ski in position to be used when it needs to be used. That's generally when the racer loses an edge and needs to step to the inside ski, or when the racer releases the outside ski and the pressure redistributes to the other ski. In high speed turns that require very high edge angles, it may not be possible to keep the inside ski in that perfect position. It's also not really possible to keep the inside ski continuously carving in a race course when most of the pressure is on the outside ski. The courses are too hard and rutted, and a lightly loaded ski will mostly vibrate. Watch the slow motion films of a ski race, and you'll see that those "pure carved turns" mostly involve only the middle one-third or so of the ski. The tips and tales are mostly bouncing through the course.

The USSA Alpine Ski Fundamentals DVD talks about controlling the inside hip to maintain lateral balance, but I haven't found any discussion of how much pressure needs to be carried on the inside ski. Controlling the inside hip means keeping it in a position where the inside leg can be pressured when it needs to be, but that does not mean the inside ski needs to be pressured all the time or that it needs to be pressured equally The DVD does talk about maintaining equal pressure while "gliding," but those are high speed, very long radius turns, performed in a tuck position, that require very little edging or leg extension.

The real deal is not about perfectly clean arcs, at least not in racing. It's about getting to high edge angles, and carrying energy through the transition to the next turn. Take a look at the picture of Mike Rogan on p.73 of the Ski Magazine Buyers' Guide for what a real high performance turn looks like, as opposed to the theoretical "pure carved turn."

Regards, John
I think the answer is in this part of the article

http://www.youcanski.com/english/coa..._technique.htm

Following was copied from above address:

Common Trends of Modern Technique

Parallel skis
Parallel legs and shins
Level tips
Crossover and Crossunder work in concert
Downunweighting
Early edge
Pressure in the fall-line

There is an obvious speed advantage of parallel skis. It allows applying more pressure on the inside ski in the second part of the turn, which eliminates excessive locking of the edge of the outside ski. Now both skis are loaded and involved in carving smooth faster arcs. If the skis were in scissored (diverging) position, loading inside ski would result in either sliding of the outside ski or simply falling to the inside of the turn. In other words diverging inside ski would not effectively contribute to carving.

The top racers have on average 80:20 ratio of outside to inside ski pressure in Slalom and 70:30 in GS. This ratio is constantly changing throughout the turn. Normally the turn is started above the fall line with 90% of pressure on the outside ski. Upon entering the fall line inside ski is starting to carry more load while it is not only assisting in maintaining lateral balance but is actively contributing to carving. It is normal to see a ratio of 60:40 in the second part of a turn. It could even be 50:50 throughout the most of a turn, but only on the flat less turny sections of a course. Loading of inside ski works and produces speed advantage only if skis are kept parallel throughout the entire turn.

Although there is a significant lateral split between the skis in Slalom and GS the split in sagittal (for and aft) plane has been reduced. Having ski tips almost level especially in the first half of a turn assists in keeping them parallel and carving early. Sagittal split produces unnecessary counter-rotation and could also cause premature loading of inside ski. It could alter lateral balance and affect carving of both skis. Keeping minimal sagittal split maintains square relationship between upper and lower body through the first of a turn. This is the most natural and biomechanically strong position similar to the downhill tuck – the most efficient position in skiing.

In order for that to happen ski needs to be tipped on its edge very early in the turn. Well timed cross movement in combination with extension and inclination positions the body inside the turn before the pressure is really built on the outside ski. Occasionally it could result in starting the turn on the inside ski, which is a technical error often mistakenly considered to be a part of Modern Technique. There is a fine line between an early edge set and leaning in on top of the turn. Top racers can sense it most of the time.

In order to maintain speed and even accelerate out of the turn skis need to be loaded above and into the fall-line. It has more impact in GS but produces time gains in Slalom as well. Top racers release the pressure coming out of the fall-line. It is very important as forces (gravity and centrifugal) match upon exiting the fall-line, creating more reaction force from the snow resulting in deceleration. Combination of a cross movement, early edge set and pressure in the fall-line with early release are used to produce acceleration in Slalom and GS turns.

While analyzing the ski technique it is important to separate the elements of individual style or some technical inefficiency from the trends of Modern Technique. Studying ski technique of the top racers produces very objective results as the fastest racers exhibit the best technique, which is not affected by style or need to create a certain impression. If and when a particular technique produces fast times it is adopted and used by the others. There are a number of technical progressions and drills the top racers use in their training in order to become more efficient. The eight characteristics of Modern Technique listed above are tightly intertwined with each other. Most of them could only be effectively used if the other ones are present in skier’s technical arsenal. Only the combination of all eight performed in the right sequence creates this powerful yet graceful Modern Ski Technique.
John:"The USSA Alpine Ski Fundamentals DVD talks about controlling the inside hip to maintain lateral balance, but I haven't found any discussion of how much pressure needs to be carried on the inside ski. Controlling the inside hip means keeping it in a position where the inside leg can be pressured when it needs to be, but that does not mean the inside ski needs to be pressured all the time or that it needs to be pressured equally The DVD does talk about maintaining equal pressure while "gliding," but those are high speed, very long radius turns, performed in a tuck position, that require very little edging or leg extension".

John, I totaly agree with this paragraph. This has been my take for awhile, that the main control comes from the hips, and this controling of the inside hip does in my oppion remove the need to work the inside foot, because we have positive progressive movements on the inside half. I see the inside hip not only controling us larteraly but also controling fore and aft pressure on the outside foot. Of course all the differences between skeletal support (long leg) and muscles support (short leg) apply with respect to the difference in pressure, and also the very improtant need for our balance mechanism to have a stable platform focused on the medial (big toe) side of the foot to balance on. On the outside foot we can ski from the bottom of the foot on the inside we need to leaverage our boots to effectively have any real significant pressure applied downward to our ski. We need that "loading response" from our out side foot if we want to satisfy our need to be connected.

I spent some time the other day looking at those pictures in ski mag. Pretty interesting. Rogans along with the rest. I just found it interesting and kinda cotradictory to see the pictures in LeMasters article (I only clcked on the one) showing almost no inside ski track when there was talk here about the significance of skiing with the inside foot pulled back getting us into a two footed carve, with this article giving support.

Atomicman, I can't say personaly what is faster, it's never been my thing, but I will just say that it seemd to me that what you were saying about inside ski carving didn't corespond to the pictures. Sure I'm always striving for parallel skis, but the pressure on the inside ski is only relative to what my intent is. I wnat them doing the same movements and if I want to not pay constant attention to the inside ski then I need to have some engagement of the edge in a mirror fashion to the outside ski. Exactly same edge angle, I just don't see that in most skiing either.

As far as the pressure ratio, I guess I will have to say I don't know. Is it 70/30, 80/20, 90/10, or 50/50, it's really hard to tell, because the difference between my skeleton supporting my body and my muscles are so different I don't think I can tell effectively how much weight I have on my inside ski in any real definetive way. really about the only way to tell is to feel how the inside ski is behaving and I don't see it taking any great amount of pressure to keep it moving in the same direction parallel to the outside. Maybe I'm wrong here and I'm about to get educated. It sure does take more presure to lay an inside ski trench but as the photo's in the article show it's really not nessasary for effective skiing.

I guess I'm not in the 50 /50 camp, nor am I in the two foot carve everywhere camp either. Who knows, maybe sometime. It is a goal of mine to be more dynamic this year, and spend some time with my hips closer to the snow, so we'll see. Later, RicB.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman I think the answer is in this part of the articlehttp://www.youcanski.com/english/coa..._technique.htm Following was copied from above address: Common Trends of Modern Technique Parallel skis Parallel legs and shins Loaded inside ski Level tips Crossover and Crossunder work in concert Downunweighting Early edge Pressure in the fall-line The top racers have on average 80:20 ratio of outside to inside ski pressure in Slalom and 70:30 in GS. This ratio is constantly changing throughout the turn. Normally the turn is started above the fall line with 90% of pressure on the outside ski. Upon entering the fall line inside ski is starting to carry more load while it is not only assisting in maintaining lateral balance but is actively contributing to carving. It is normal to see a ratio of 60:40 in the second part of a turn. It could even be 50:50 throughout the most of a turn, but only on the flat less turny sections of a course. Loading of inside ski works and produces speed advantage only if skis are kept parallel throughout the entire turn... ... This is the most natural and biomechanically strong position similar to the downhill tuck – the most efficient position in skiing.
Most of that article is pretty standard modern ski technique, but it's a mistake to quantfy how much pressure should be carried on the inside ski. (It's a mistake to quantify anything except course times, actually.) To my knowledge, no one has yet successfully measured how much pressure is carried on either ski, and no coach I know even tries to estimate it. The best any coach can say is that "it feels like I am carrying 20% inside." The problem with that is that 20% to me may feel like 40% one kid, and 11% to another. The better coach's appraoch is to have them experiment with different pressure distributions, and discover for themselves how much is necessary for control and to carry speed in the gates. Timed runs will prove whether the skier is improving his skills.
This gets back to the discuss of "pull the foot back." I can tell a kid what works for me and how I feel when I do that, and what it looks like when I do it, but I can never know how he feels when he tries to do what I tell him to do. It's a mistake to generalize your own experience in that way.

I don't understand that last statement about a tuck being the most biomechanically efficient position. The tuck position is only efficient aerodynamically. Racers typically need to get out of a tuck in order to turn, or even to balance in the air on downhills.

Regards, John
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jdowling The problem with that is that 20% to me may feel like 40% one kid, and 11% to another.
The big problem is in trying to compare the load on a strong, extended outside leg to the load on an inherently weak, flexed inside leg. Similar loads will feel dramatically different in magnitude. It's a very deceptive sensation.

Quote:
 There are a few simple reasons why most of the weight goes to the outside ski. First, you can more comfortably balance on the big toe side of your foot than on your little toe side. You can also carry much more weight on an extended leg than you can on a fully flexed leg. At the high edge angles required in racing, the inside ski will boot out before the outside ski. Even the most flexible athletes cannot effectively maintain parallel shins when their inside leg is fully flexed. All those things mean that almost all the skier's weight ends up on the outside ski at the apex of the turns you see in the LeMaster pictures. The whole idea that both skis should carve continually is way overdone. The important thing is to maintain balance, and to keep the inside ski in position to be used when it needs to be used. That's generally when the racer loses an edge and needs to step to the inside ski, or when the racer releases the outside ski and the pressure redistributes to the other ski. In high speed turns that require very high edge angles, it may not be possible to keep the inside ski in that perfect position. It's also not really possible to keep the inside ski continuously carving in a race course when most of the pressure is on the outside ski.
Good job, John.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB I guess I'm not in the 50 /50 camp, nor am I in the two foot carve everywhere camp either. Who knows, maybe sometime. It is a goal of mine to be more dynamic this year, and spend some time with my hips closer to the snow, so we'll see. Later, RicB.
I first heard the term "two footed carving" at a race camp in the early '90's, where it was used to describe a way of skiing without "diverging," which was a popular technique at the time. It meant that both skis should keep moving in the parallel and in the same direction, but no one suggested that weight had to be distributed 50/50 all the time. When shape skis came along in the mid 90's, that carving technique was easy to learn, and people (especially instructors) overdid it.

The 50/50 idea was a misinterpretation, which to this day I have never seen in any PSIA or USSA manual. I think most coaches have quit using the term "two footed carving" because of those misinterpretations.

Hips closer to the snow is a good thing!

Regards, John
Not to sound like a smarta\$\$ but isn't skiing without divergance or convergance what is called skiing parallel, and isn't carving, skiing with "no" skiding?

I think this is what happens when there are too many cooks, things get, well confused, the taster can have a hard time recognizing the recipe. as far as 50/50, I was just throwing that out there, but I have heard it before along with carve the whole mountain, ect., ect., and every ratio in between 0 and 99. I'm sure we could find other definitions of "modern skiing" too.

Alot of this is just way too gimicky for me I guess. Meaning no disrespect of course. Later, RicB.
RicB

I agree with you. I think the amount of weight distribution is changing constantly and of course their is not set % of how much goes where & when. But you can get some kinda feel for 100/0 maybe versus 80/20 versus 50/50. I look at it more as a comparative scale than tobviously the exact numbers. In other words I am sure all of us could tell that more weight would be on your inside ski in a 50/50 turn than an 80/20 turn. It is not important that it is actually 80/20 just that there would be less weight on the inside ski than 50/50.

And none of it really matteres if your are carving and not skidding. I think where this plays an important roll is at the top of the turn. The steeper and harder the snow conditions the more commitment to the outside ski is necessary to keep from skidding at the top of the turn. As you continue to carve you can progressively introduce more weight to the inside ski.

Does this make any sense?

A-man
By the way all I ever said that started this entire discussion in this thread, Was pulling the inside footback to attain a forward position in the begiining of the turn was an element of modern ski techinique, and then gave examples from well respected sources that this was true. I had alot of folk disagree with this, but Olle Larrsson comes right out & says it in the last 2 paragraphs of the Slalom article I referred to.

FORWARD BODY POSITION.

A forward body position entering the turn is of utmost importance. Bakke’s forward body position makes the outside ski’s front half bend more than the tail. This forward pressure will lead the ski into quick and tight radius carves. This forward body position exerts great pressure on the tibia against the tongue of the boot, which in turn bends the front of the ski. The skier must be able to bend the ankle in the ski boot. However, at a certain point the ski boot must stop bending forward. It is at this time maximum pressure is transferred to the front of the ski. Her pelvis is forward and noticeably ahead of her outside foot. To acquire a forward position the racer must hold the inside foot back. Both tibias are bent forward to almost the same degree.

FORWARD BODY POSITION BY RETRACTION OF THE OUT SIDE SKI.

Bakke is repeating the same movements except that she retracts her outside ski. There are two common methods to attain a forward body position at the start of the turn. The racer can either extend the leg, which means that the outside leg is bent very little at the knee. (See extension of Mateo Nana in the following photo sequence). Or a second method, which is very effective when the gates are close together giving the racer little time to extend, is to pull the outside foot back. Notice that in photo 5 Bakke’s right knee and foot are ahead of her hip. In photo 7 (the last photo) her right foot is now behind her hip. Top racers have developed the ability to either push the ski forward at the end of the turn or pull it back as seen here. The benefit of this action is to produce pressure on the front of the ski by quickly (in 2-3/10’s of a second) getting a forward body position with relatively little muscular effort. When the fore and aft body position is ideal the skier can carve turns in a relaxed way. When it is not, the skis must be forced around causing undesirable body stiffness loss of rhythm and decreased ability to absorb changes in the terrain

FABRIZIO TESCARI, Italy

Heading into a steep pitch Tescari’s forward position makes his skis bend from the tip to the tail (photo 3). For the skier to advance forward it is essential to hold the inside foot back. Notice that his left foot is leading well ahead of his right foot (downhill foot) in photo 4.
The angle of his two lower legs (tibias) is clearly different while in photos 2 and 3 the tibias have almost parallel angles. To acquire a forward body position correctly positioning the uphill foot is very important. If Tescari had started his turn with his uphill foot positioned ahead of the downhill foot, as demonstrated in photo 4, it would have been difficult to generate pressure on the front of the downhill ski. At the start of the turn, the combination of the uphill foot far ahead of the downhill foot and pressure on the uphill ski will stop the skier from getting a forward position.

— Olle LARSSON - March 2000

Come on guys, Olle comes right out and says it!!! He doesn't say and also you can push your outside ski forward to accomplish the same thing. You can't pressure your tip and bend your outside ski into an arc if your pushing your outside foot forward.
I'm not sure I understand the last post to me Atomicman. If it only applies to carving then is it really a fundamental of modern skiing? I like to apply the litmus test of all mountain all terrain skiing to what's being presented, to see if it is just a corection or something nessasary, as in a fundamental skill needed. Don't we just take our fundamental skills and blend them differently to make different types of turns? I'll just say that what I get out of the article is that He is talking about ways to correct things as opposed to the way to ski. Later, RicB.
I would agrre with that. Although, I am not sure skiing powder, crud and bumps has changed all that much as far as technique goes, other than the additional flotation you get with wider skis.

You still ski those conditions with a narrower more centered stance and less inclination than on groomed. Where groomers and race courses, the stance has changed dramatically with a lot of inclinationn and much wider stance. So I would think most of what were are discussing applies more to packed & race course situations.
I don't know, I think that modern skis have changed the way we ski all over the mountain. I do adjust my stance width for varying conditions and terrain, but I don't see this as being related with pulling the inside foot back. I have used this succsefully in the bumps with several students that were getting way to scissored with their tip lead. Pulling the foot back in the second half of the turn allowed the inside foot to stay under their butt and gave some finishing rotational force to their turns and low and behold, skiing in the bumps just got easier. Stance correction and added turning force, both were needed in this situation. Same move you talk about, just different timing and a in a different turn.

I cliniced with a dteamer from aspen who did a morning long progression (begginers magic) with the first money turn being an inside foot pulled back to initiate and keep the skis skidding. required really short skis, and I found that with normal rental length skis it was not as effective.

In all of these examples I see this maneuver as being a compensating or correcting move. Whether the skis are edged and carving or skidding makes the difference between the effect it gives beyond a stance adjustment. That's my take anyway. Later, RicB.
That all sounds reasonable! I assume this is reference to carved turns in the bumps where you carve through the troughs. As you probably read Rusty Guy doesn't buy this "the pull your inside foot back thing in the bumps" he appaerntly prefers his feet in front of his hips I gather from his comment. But I think that is a different style of bump skiing where you prety much pivot and ski up and over the tops. kinda like the freestyle mogul competitors. I personnaly don't subscribe to that kind of bump skiing. I am from the carve the troughs school, where I agree pulling the footback would certainly work and help you to stay forward which is of paramount importance in bumps, IMHO.

What'd ya think?

CW
I don't think this in opposition to any type of turn in the bumps. I used it in some lessons to effect a quick change in some students, and I certainly explained and talked about what I saw, what I was trying to get them to change, and why I thought it would help. Realy the rotational froce in the bottom of the turn gets more of a J turn, carvier going in, with more of a skidding and absorption on the side to finish. What I think Rusty is talking about is a pedaling motion, with the feet coming from behind and under (long leg), to the front as they absorb (short leg).

Again, I think this whole foot back thing is more a way to correct or compensate than a way to ski all the time, Like I said before. Not sure about where you're trying to get to with this? Later, RicB.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB Again, I think this whole foot back thing is more a way to correct or compensate than a way to ski all the time, Like I said before. Not sure about where you're trying to get to with this? Later, RicB.
I don't know where I'm going with this. I guess Skiing!

I will quote Olle larsson one more time below. I don't beleive this is a compensatory move like you keep saying but a "PROACTIVE" in other words it is not correcting an incorrect body position, It is the next correct body postion after the l;ast correct body position:

FORWARD BODY POSITION.

A forward body position entering the turn is of utmost importance. Bakke’s forward body position makes the outside ski’s front half bend more than the tail. This forward pressure will lead the ski into quick and tight radius carves. This forward body position exerts great pressure on the tibia against the tongue of the boot, which in turn bends the front of the ski. The skier must be able to bend the ankle in the ski boot. However, at a certain point the ski boot must stop bending forward. It is at this time maximum pressure is transferred to the front of the ski. Her pelvis is forward and noticeably ahead of her outside foot. To acquire a forward position the racer must hold the inside foot back. Both tibias are bent forward to almost the same degree.

Heading into a steep pitch Tescari’s forward position makes his skis bend from the tip to the tail (photo 3). For the skier to advance forward it is essential to hold the inside foot back.

To acquire a forward body position correctly positioning the uphill foot is very important. If Tescari had started his turn with his uphill foot positioned ahead of the downhill foot, as demonstrated in photo 4, it would have been difficult to generate pressure on the front of the downhill ski. At the start of the turn, the combination of the uphill foot far ahead of the downhill foot and pressure on the uphill ski will stop the skier from getting a forward position.

Now! Nowhere in here did it say these skiers were recovering or correcting anything particularly from a mistaken position on their skis. Like being too far back. Because that is not why they are holding there inside footback. It doesn't say their inside foot was too far forward so THEY HAD TO PULL IT BACK WHERE IT SHOULD BE It is to get forward for the next arc!!!!! The position just prior to is absolutely perfect & where they want to be at that moment. But to start their skis carving it takes a forward body postion and lots of pressure on the forebody of the ski. For the 100th time holding the inside foot back helps them attain the forward body postion they desire!

Now does this make sense? I don't know how many different wyas I can show it & say it, but I think this last time is pretty good!
A-man,

What your saying here about the effect of pressuring the front of the ski at the top of the turn is accurate. Heavy pressure on the boot tongue, through the use of a fore CM position, serves to hyper engage the front of the ski and jump start the turn.

It's important, however, to understand the negative aspects of employing that technique:

* Hyper engagement of the tips is a speed dumping technique. Tails are fast, tips are slow.

* Related to the above thought: Fore/aft adjustments are disruptive to energy flow.

* Leveraging against the front of the boot compromises optimal balance.

The technique can be done, and it can provide particular benefits, but with it also comes the above sacrifices, so it should be done with that knowledge and employed where the benefits outweigh the compromises.

As to the inside foot position: It's important to understand that the strongest position is one with the feet, hips and shoulders orientated in the same direction. You can't relocate the inside foot as an independant enity without affecting the strength of the body position. If you want to locate the CM in front of the feet at the top of the turn for the reasons stated above, you must maintain the feet/hip/shoulder alignment relationship to remain strong. You can't do it by relocating the inside foot alone, unless that relocation is correcting a misalingment.

And finally, understand that as the turn progresses, edge angle is gradually increased until the desired radius in achieved. Along with that increase, a corresponding increase in body alignment orientation to the outside of the turn takes place. That results in an inside foot that's getting progressively further ahead of the outside foot as the turn transpires.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman That all sounds reasonable! I assume this is reference to carved turns in the bumps where you carve through the troughs. As you probably read Rusty Guy doesn't buy this "the pull your inside foot back thing in the bumps" he appaerntly prefers his feet in front of his hips I gather from his comment. But I think that is a different style of bump skiing where you prety much pivot and ski up and over the tops. kinda like the freestyle mogul competitors. I personnaly don't subscribe to that kind of bump skiing. I am from the carve the troughs school, where I agree pulling the footback would certainly work and help you to stay forward which is of paramount importance in bumps, IMHO. What'd ya think? CW
Here is what I'm suggesting depicted by Bob Barnes in animated fashion;

http://ourworld.cs.com/BBRNZ/Backpedal+3.gif
I will add a reprint of something Bob wrote some time ago;

"Distribute your weight over the soles of your boots, just as you do when standing upright on the ground.... Identify two pressure zones; one, on the forward part of your foot, underneath the ball, and the second behind, underneath your heel. In order to maintain your balance, you must constantly maintain pressure on both of these zones on both feet. An important point to remember: don't lean on the fronts or the backs of your boots.

....

The modern...techniques of pivoting the skis with foot steering are not adaptable to a forward weighted position."

--Georges Joubert, Skiing, An Art...A Technique, 1978 (pages 22 and 54)

While it remains an all-too-common myth even today, the advice to ski with your weight forward, centered on the balls of your feet, and flexing forward on the tongues of the boots has been bad advice for a long time. As Georges Joubert clearly stated a quarter-century ago, skis just don't work very well that way! Today's great high-performing skis amplify the importance of proper fore-aft stance, but they did not change or introduce the technique.

As Helluvaskier points out above, pressuring forward on the boot tongues is useful if, and only if, you want to make your tails skid out. It is NOT necessary to increase the pressure on the ski tips to initiate a carved turn, if you are in balance. Today's skis perform (carve) best when pressure is focused on their "sweet spot," somewhere under the middle of your foot, which causes the entire edge to engage evenly--tips included. The "pressure forward to initiate" myth still stems (pun intended) from the obsolete assumption that getting a turn started always requires getting the skis to start skidding. It doesn't!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

I would like to toss in one question. Is it better advice to engage the front of the ski or engage the entire ski?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by SnowDog A-man, What your saying here about the effect of pressuring the front of the ski at the top of the turn is accurate. Heavy pressure on the boot tongue, through the use of a fore CM position, serves to hyper engage the front of the ski and jump start the turn. It's important, however, to understand the negative aspects of employing that technique: * Hyper engagement of the tips is a speed dumping technique. Tails are fast, tips are slow. * Related to the above thought: Fore/aft adjustments are disruptive to energy flow. * Leveraging against the front of the boot compromises optimal balance. The technique can be done, and it can provide particular benefits, but with it also comes the above sacrifices, so it should be done with that knowledge and employed where the benefits outweigh the compromises. As to the inside foot position: It's important to understand that the strongest position is one with the feet, hips and shoulders orientated in the same direction. You can't relocate the inside foot as an independant enity without affecting the strength of the body position. If you want to locate the CM in front of the feet at the top of the turn for the reasons stated above, you must maintain the feet/hip/shoulder alignment relationship to remain strong. You can't do it by relocating the inside foot alone, unless that relocation is correcting a misalingment. And finally, understand that as the turn progresses, edge angle is gradually increased until the desired radius in achieved. Along with that increase, a corresponding increase in body alignment orientation to the outside of the turn takes place. That results in an inside foot that's getting progressively further ahead of the outside foot as the turn transpires.
Snowdog you write well. I have a pretty good suspicion who you are and that this is a nom de plume.

If you are who I think you are welcome back!
Rusty, I relly appreciate your response.

I also appreciate what Bob says and know he is well respected in the ski community but can't agree with him here. To say that shaped ski don't work and you shouldn't be on the cuff of your boot at certain points I just can't buy.

I know Bob is a big proponent of very centered skiing but the skis I have always skied on don't work well that way. Now i skied on a K2 Mod-X once for a weekend and that is the only way they worked, centered. The tips folded damn near in half if I skied them like a Volkl or Atomic. I do think Bob's comment is an over simplification. I think there is definetly some difference in how different brands ski and even models wwithin a line as far as fore/aft pressure.

I am more in the Larsson camp on this whole issue. Olle talks about this all the time and I am sure you must have read the repeated articles he has written in Ski Racing where he has mentioned initiating with the forbody and assuming a forward position at the beginning of the turn!

So are you saying what Larsson wrote is incorrect. Although you saw ehat the skier's were doing in the photos. Definetly forward in places!

Also, I didn't see where Snowdog said that forward pressure to engage the forebody of the ski at the beginning of the turn will cause skidding tail.
I just don't find this to be true. I think that has more to do with being scissored, leaning in or not having enopugh weight on your outside ski at the top of the turn.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman By the way all I ever said that started this entire discussion in this thread, Was pulling the inside footback to attain a forward position in the begiining of the turn .

I have not really been following this thread but...
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