New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Snowboards & Speed

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I thought this was slightly interesting, in light of the earlier "which is faster, skis or snowboards?" thread.

Apparently, they allowed a snowboarder to enter two Masters Super Gs in Oregon last winter. A guy in his late 30s, with the full set-up: hard carving boots, etc.

How did he do?

Second to last in both races. He beat the same skier both times: a guy in Class 12 (80-84 years old). Relative to skiers of his own age, he was a tad slow ... over 40 seconds out of first place in both races.

I doubt the result comes as a surprise to anyone, but I thought it was fairly dramatic.
post #2 of 24
So what's your point?

How do we know about the snowboarder's overall racing ability?

He may not of been that good to begin with.

I recall that in last years Jeep King of the Mountain series, the professional snowboard racers like Jasey Jay Anderson and Chris Klug were only a few hundreds of a second slower that the fastest professional ski racers.

The truth is that the best ski racers are faster that the best snowboard racers, but not by much.

The truth is also that any world cup level snowboard racer would absolutely destroy any of the posters on this forum in a GS race.
post #3 of 24
that's quite a sweeping statement considering some of the visitors to this site! feel the need to edge my 2v's...
post #4 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ
The truth is also that any world cup level snowboard racer would absolutely destroy any of the posters on this forum in a GS race.
You've based this "truth" on what?

A world cup winning snowboarder may be able to beat most of the posters on here, but I don't believe that they would 1. beat all of them or 2. absolutely destroy them.

I don't like dealing in absolutes when it comes to sport, and unless you've already raced with some of the faster people on here, I suggest you shouldn't either.
post #5 of 24
well said mr. fox.
post #6 of 24
The truth being the 99.9% of the posters on this site are wannabes who like to talk about how good they are, but in reality are nothing but intermediates at best.

Of all the posters here, how many have raced J5-J1, college level, and masters?? Only a handful, including myself.

How many here can honestly say they spent over 100 days per year on the snow, both coaching and racing?

A lot of people here like to talk the talk, but cant walk the walk.

Christ, a lot of people here spend more time POSTING than they do actually skiing/riding.

Even mentioning their name in the same breath with ANY world cup level skier or rider just makes me laugh.
post #7 of 24
OK, TJ, I'm not claiming to be an ex-Olympian, or on the demo team, and I'm sure any racer could beat me in a race. What I'm saying is, you made a blanket statement which I believe is false, and if you checked out a few of the posters on here (perhaps up to 10% of them) you might be surprised. And, don't rule out countries other than the USA for people who post on here.
post #8 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ
So what's your point?

How do we know about the snowboarder's overall racing ability?

He may not of been that good to begin with.
True, he may not "of" been. The information I posted doesn't really prove anything ... it's just interesting. It has the virtue of being factual, unlike the various statements you characteristically introduce with "the truth is ...." Real, verifiable facts tend not to be simple: you need to add them up with lots of other information and apply some analysis to reach conclusions. These are just a few facts to weigh together with other stuff.

It is possible that he wasn't that good ... and that none of the 65 masters racers who beat him in the first race, and the 61 who beat him in the second were "not that good." He did beat the same skier in both races: a guy who was born about the time the troops returned from World War I.

Still pictures don't tell you everything, but here are a couple interesting ones:

Here's the snowboarder:

http://tinyurl.com/2j3wn

This person beat him by 18.59 seconds in one race and 15.70 in the other:

http://tinyurl.com/2zlv7

Here's another racer, who beat him by 13.13 seconds and 12.77 seconds:

http://tinyurl.com/3hj35


For reference, the fastest times in both races were just over 58 seconds; the snowboarder finished in 1:39.96 and 1:39.01.
post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ
The truth being the 99.9% of the posters ....
I don't know which is more telling: (i) that all the "truth" you've stated is patently unknown to you or (ii) that none of it has anything to do with the preceding discussion.

You're not exactly enhancing your credibility ....
post #10 of 24
Oh my God, that picture of the snowboarder explains everything.

If you think that represents snowboard racing, you are sadly, sadly mistaken.

It is clear that person has very limited racing experience. Just look at his horrible stance. Stiff knees, bending at the waist, reaching to the uphill side of the board, in the back seat.....he has major problems.

Check out these sites to see what a REAL snowboard racer looks like in action:

Kris Klug's site:
www.chrisklug.com

Jasey-Jay Andersons site:
www.jaseyjay.com

I especially like this photo of Jasey-Jay
http://www.jaseyjay.com/en/photos/im...m01005th_z.jpg

You should study his body position, it would help you get out of that intermediate skier rut you are stuck in.

These two guys would absolutely tear up a masters course.

Oh by the way, both Jasey-Jay's and Chris' accomplishments and racing prowness are well documented and factual. How well documented is YOUR racing ability?????
post #11 of 24
TJ, I would post a link to a site containing several pages of documentation of the ability of one of my friends on here, but since you already have drawn your conclusions, and closed your mind, I see little point in it.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat
TJ, I would post a link to a site containing several pages of documentation of the ability of one of my friends on here, but since you already have drawn your conclusions, and closed your mind, I see little point in it.
Please post the results. I would be interested to see them.
post #13 of 24
TJ, I've just posted some of the people Martin has beaten.
He's also beaten me on Nastar, which I think is possibly his pride and joy, and has meant more to him than his 3 Olympic Games, and countless FIS World Cup races...
post #14 of 24
(Oh, and I don't mean as a commentator or spectator, or a course setter)
post #15 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ
Please post the results. I would be interested to see them.
You can look up Fox Hat's friends results on www.fis-ski.com. It's not that hard. Click on Competitor Biographies and find Martin Bell.

You know, if you wanted, you could let us look up your results too. I assume, if we knew your name, we could look up how you've done on the New England Masters site. But ... does it really matter? Does it have anything to do with anything? Not any more than whether or not I am in an intermediate rut. I don't think so, but, really, who cares? On the other hand, I suspect that you're right that the best snowboard racers in the world could beat me in a snowboard GS.

The point of my original post above was that the result was (in my words) "slightly interesting," particularly in light of the discussion in what was then a recent thread about whether skis or snowboards are faster.

The poor snowboarder in question may not be the greatest racer in the world, but ... um ... this was just a Masters race. You think it's possible that one or two of the skiers wasn't the greatest racer in the world? I would guess so, in light of your view that being a mid-level Masters racer is a reason to "crawl into a hole."

Your arguments (and attitude) in this, and the parallel thread, are quite different from your earlier -- rather nice, I thought -- advice: "Masters Racing is all about having fun and improving your skiing/racing skills. ... I have never heard one of [the top racers] make a bad comment about a beginner racer, no matter how bad they did. In fact, many of them will seek out new members, and offer words of encouragement. My advice to you would be to join the Masters, and go out and have some fun."
post #16 of 24
You know what, I don't even snowboard, so I really don't know why I even got involved with these threads in the first place.

I guess after having met some of the hard working and very talented World Cup snowboard racers over the years, I just grew tired of some of the overly smug responses from some (not all) of the posters on this site.

I'm done posting about this stupid ski vs snowboard thing.
post #17 of 24
TJ, is that as close as we get to an apology from you?
post #18 of 24
Back to topic...

Everything depends on the course:

Skis are slightly faster going straight, and do better in downhill.
In Giant Slalom, the two are just about equal (down to hundredths of seconds)

In a Giant Slalom course that is fairly straight, a skier will be about a second faster usually.
In a Giant Slalom course that is very turny (with snowboarder triangle gates) a snowboarder will be a second or two faster with perfect technique.

In Boarder/Skiercross, the skiers ANNIHILATE the snowboarders. However, this is not because skis are better for the X-Cross. Because of the freestyle marketing revolution, lots of restrictions are put on proper alpine racing gear for boardercross, as well as stupid new riders, basically they all go out to the race course wearing flimsy soft boots at park angles in duck stance, on boards that have radii within 7-9 meters which is completely ridiculous. The only snowboarder that is competitive in boardercross is Jasey JAy Anderson who uses a proper Coiler 186 with hardboots. He is as fast as the skiers.

In powder: A proper 180-220cm swallowtail powder board is EXTREMELy faster than any pow skis and much smoother for turning.
post #19 of 24
those numbers include the poling advantage the skiers have at the start of the heat. carving decks are more efficient carving machines. Along with physiology and better inclination/angulation options, a snowboarder has 2 pressure locatiosn on the board. This gives him the ability to dynamically change pressure noseward/tailwards through the progression of a carve much more so than skis. At the beginning of a turn, an aggressive carver will throw his weight forward to as much as 70%/30%, and slip it tailward throughout the carve to around 40%/60% to the end of the carve, where the loaded tail launches you airbound to the next carve upon release of the edge.

you should watch a few videos before you make assumptions. there isn't much snowboard carving out there compared to the massive ugly giant that is mainstream freestyle snowboarding. but it is there and it is very unique

www.extremecarving.com : unique style, 90degree carving with pure inclination. S turns across STEEP pistes
www.pureboarding.com Germans. Nice pics! Cool peopel!

www.hardbooter.com Usa and Canada style
www.carver.cc nice pics
www.bomberonline.com home of alpine carver
www.alpinecarving.com huge rant about everything carving
www.carvingmachine.com japanese... find the videos... theyr'e sick
www.stoked.at good library of videos
post #20 of 24
Ha Ha TJ doesn't ride! I got on plate bindings as soon as snowboarding was allowed on my local hill (86?), why not? Because hardboots and carving boards are a blast. And we didn't have carving skis yet. Dude, sorry you missed out on that sport. Probably doesn't make sense to try now, with carving skis offering similar sensations and you already can ski well as you imply. Yeah, it's just too funny though. But now I know where you're coming from. Like the rest of us, you admire the skills of carving/racing snowboarders. For sure I can't carve like Jasey Jay either. I'm sure you can tell us more about snowboard racing. I've learned from your posts. Peace, brother
post #21 of 24
Actually, I should rephrase that to: I don't snowboard now, but I have in the past. Both softboots and plates. I was actually fairly good at it, but you are right, with shaped skis (and now playing around with tele) I have enough to keep myself entertained.

You are also right that I am impressed when I see a good carver go by on plates. It takes a lot of skill and dedication to pull caves like they do on steep trails. When a carver goes under a lift EVERY head will turn to watch them. Throw in a lot more time,skill and dedication to actually race those things at the World Cup level, and that's why I fumed at some of the responses to these threads.

It takes an incredible amount of dedication and skill to snowboard race at the level of Jasey-Jay or Chris Klug, and we should all appreciate it.
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarvCanada
those numbers include the poling advantage the skiers have at the start of the heat. carving decks are more efficient carving machines. Along with physiology and better inclination/angulation options, a snowboarder has 2 pressure locatiosn on the board. This gives him the ability to dynamically change pressure noseward/tailwards through the progression of a carve much more so than skis. At the beginning of a turn, an aggressive carver will throw his weight forward to as much as 70%/30%, and slip it tailward throughout the carve to around 40%/60% to the end of the carve, where the loaded tail launches you airbound to the next carve upon release of the edge.
Good points, CarvCanada - poles are definitely a huge advantage for skiers in skiercross that I had overlooked (although they can also cause tangles!), and SBers certainly have an advantage in their much greater opportunities for inclination/angulation and fore-aft pressure distribution.
However, you must concede that there is a disadvantage in the fact that SBers must maintain balance on one edge rather than two (like the difference between a kid learning to ride a tricycle and a bicycle maybe...)
post #23 of 24
Here is another report showing skiers are faster than snowboarders.

Research based on data presented at the May 2003 ISSS Congress held in St Moritz, Switzerland

Research Methodology
• We obtained 650 speed data points from three resorts (170 in Utah, 278 in New York and 202 in Vermont).
• One resort is a Destination Resort, one is a Day Resort, the third is a mixture of Day and Destination
• As much as possible, data were obtained on consecutive skiers and snowboarders.
• Slopes were chosen to represent typical blue square, wide (30 to 80 m) groomed trails of moderate steepness (16o to 20o).
• Used Bushnell Speedster radar speed guns (accuracy +/- 1 mph up to 200 mph).
• All measurements were made as the target was moving downhill from the observer, so that hopefully the person being observed was unaware of the measurement process.
• The speed value chosen was the maximum speed observed during the period of time the person was under observation.

Skiers faster than snowboarders; 3.5 mph
Skiers (44.5 km/h)> Snowboarders (38.9 km/h)
• Helmeted faster than non-helmeted; 3.0 mph
– Yes (45.8 km/h)> No (41.0 km/h)
• Good visibility faster than poor; 5.2mph
– Good (46.7 km/h)> Poor (38.3 km/h)

To read complete report see
http://www.nspgvr.org/region/Helmet%...iew%202003.pdf

BTW the above report does not factor in all the time snowboarders sit in the middle of the trail.
post #24 of 24
Hmm...

Interesting I guess. My computer is playing up so I can't read the full report, but it does raise further points:

1. In general, skiers are faster. On a certain type of slope. Doesn't state who 'can' be faster on different types of slope, which i think is the crux of this thread.
2. I would imagine (although don't quote me on this), more people learn to board than learn to ski? Therefore maybe more people going less quickly?
3. Helmeted skiers go quicker - surely this was to be expected anyway! You wear a helmet if a) you go fast and do tricks warranting protection or 2) you're 5 years old, in ski school and have no fear. Either of the two are usually quick!

Since I can't read the report in full, please correct me if i'm way off the mark!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Skiing Discussion