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all-mtn skis

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
Hi everyone, I have gotten some good advice on this forum, so I would like to tap into the pool of wisdom again.
I started skiing pretty recently,in fact I had skied a total of less than 10 times before this year. Anyway, I have decided to buy a pair of nice skis (I already have boots.)
So far my skiing has been mostly on steep groomed terrain, and crud. I would love to get a ski that would perform great on these surfaces, and would also be reasonable in moguls, since I plan to try skiing them more next year.I can't quite ski powder, but then I haven't yet had the chance to try, so who knows I am 6'3, 200 lbs, and have so far had a great time skiing on 180-185, which some could consider short I guess. So anyway, what's a good model I should look into, I have seriosuly considered the Vertigo G3, possibly the Vertigo motion (any opinions on the difference between the two.) What other models should I look into? (Crossmax, Axis,Bandit?)
post #2 of 31
G3, great ski, Motion, better ski, ignore the other three you mentioned. You will find no fault with the volkls except real deep powder but I guess that is a while away for you!
post #3 of 31
Here is some good advice... DO NOT ignore the other three you have mentioned.
You live in an area that will still give you the opportunity to demo these skis this season. Go to Dave's or Porter's near Squaw and Truckee and try them out for 25 bucks a day. They'll let you try one pair in the morning and another in the afternoon. A good way to compare. The only problem is you'll have to leave the mountain so do it at lunchtime or when you need a break. If you really like them they'll sell them to you cheap. These skis will be beaten up though so know what your buying. This time of year, there are other great deals to be had on brand new equipment. Check out e-bay.
I demoed skis for five days in Tahoe this past season. I liked the K2 Axis X so much that I bought a pair. The first pair of skis I bought in 15 years!
You are fairly new to the sport but probably have some atheletic ability with your size and terrain you are skiing. Some would probably steer you to the intermediate skis like K2's 5500 and Axis for example but you probably can handle the Axis X. Many, who are your size, have stated that the Axis X Pro is better suited for them since it is stiffer but this may be to unforgiving of a ski especially for someone who is learning the bumps. I would demo the Axis X in a 181. If you feel that you are overpowering it or you do not have good edge control on the steeps, try it in a 188. I have found that this ski will go anywhere (crud, spring slop, powder, cord, and bumps) and make any size turn at nearly every speed. I'm 6' 175 by the way and learned to ski 25 years ago. The ski, like most mid fats, has only one weakness. It does not like really hard snow such as ice and boilerplate. Conditions that are not easily found in Lake Tahoe.
Demo the skis you have mentioned. It is the only way to find out what is best for you.
post #4 of 31
Or instead of messing around missing valuble sking time you could get the ski you get the best deal on. Lets take a step back here and have a think. It is all very well spending alot of time looking for just the right ski but alot of the time the differences are pretty marginal. Three of the skis in question here, modx, g3 and bandits xx are all designed to do the same job, will work nearly the same in all conditions and have pretty similar flexes. Sking is about the skier, the ski is the tool. Seriously you would love any of the three skis and for your height and weight you should go around 185. Spend less time going up and down testing skis and enjoy sking. Sure if there is someone on the hill offering you a free run around on a different pair give it a go, but really do you want to spend half the time of your 50 dollar ticket going back and forwards to shops!
Will get off my soap box now!!
Remember at the end of the day sking is about snow not wood and metal. PS spend the money and get the motions.

[ April 23, 2002, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Disco ]
post #5 of 31

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but have you ever done much demoing?

Personally, I find pretty significant differences in how skis feel *to me*. You mention the fact that the G3, Mod X, and Bandit XX are all designed to do the same thing. That may be true, but each one has a decidedly different feel. I've tried all three.

We all weigh different amounts, initiate turns differently, prefer different kinds of reactions from the ski, and do the bulk of our skiing in different kinds of terrain and conditions.

When I'm getting ready to shell out money for a pair of skis, I really want to buy a pair that I'm convinced give me the best possible combination of price and performance. I feel that demoing is the best way for me to do that.

Just my $.02.

post #6 of 31
If you are not able to demo check out the reviews by the staff at www.footloosesports.com

They carry all three brands that you indicated an interest in.I beleive that their reviews regarding different "flavors" are quite good.

[ April 23, 2002, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Lostboy ]
post #7 of 31
I have tried loads of skis, from the shortest to the longest and the worst to the best. I always make a point of trying skis that don´t get great reviews and you know they really aren't that bad! I argree with you that we all ski differently but you must concede that is not a fixed variable, shure when you demo one is slightly better for a slightly different style. But, using the three skis we have been talking about, if you ski one run, change skis, one run , new ski etc, you notice a difference. But if you did a week on one pair, took a break, a week on another pair, took a break etc. The difference would be so much less.
The point is, yes skis feel different but when the models are this close, one weeks sking will have you fully attuned the new ski. If you wish to spend time demoing skis and searching out all the tiny fact then feel free. My point is that there are no bad skis out there, the difference between the best and the worst is trueley only personal preference and a bag full of marketing. If you have a ski that it is designed for what you want to do with it, not who make it, you will adapt in such a short place of time. And if you can`t then I suggest you don`t buy new skis and spend some money on some lessons.
Spend your time on the snow not in the shop, that is why you ski.
post #8 of 31
Just checked out the footloose page, opening statement, most important thing is width, chosse the rigth width for what you ski. Really take my word for it don't worry to much about the rest.
post #9 of 31
k2 5500

spend some time demoing cuz you can get to the hill with your new shiny skis and well you won't be able to hang with them. what then? I've seen it happen. My friend who is an intermediate made big breakthroughs on the 5500. the g3 and the xx are more advanced. work your way up to a ski like that.
post #10 of 31
When demoing, what do you look for?

Easiest ski to start a turn? Most lively, A good "corrector"?
Some intangable?

I've heard it said "you'll know the ones for you when your on them.

I have been having a good time with what ever I happen to be on.

My "long" P-30's are more fun in the bumps and trees than they ever where, The G3's are stable on the big arcs, and my phat skis do it all.


Get the best deal on the ones with good graphics!
Stay away from extremes. Enjoy.

post #11 of 31
Thread Starter 
Originally posted by CalG:
When demoing, what do you look for?

Easiest ski to start a turn? Most lively, A good "corrector"?
Some intangable?
I am looking for good edge hold on firm steep groomed terrain (Tahoe doesn't get extremely icy in comparison with other areas, but I still like good hold on a firm surface.) I would like reasonably easy turn initiation (I think the sidecut of the G3 works well) and a width that makes it easier to ski in crud.
post #12 of 31

With those three criteria, the G3 should suit you to a tee.

Here, we have hard snow!

post #13 of 31
I will agree that, with those criteria, you could like the G3. However, the Bandit XX is sold out - wonder why? Try it, then let us know how yo like it in comparison to the G3.
post #14 of 31
definitely demo if you can. Especially since your 200lbs (like me), you might find that you overpower some skis.
When i tried the scream 10 pilot, a ski that seemed to be highly recommended, i found that i totally overpowered it.
I finally purchased the head super cross ti. This ski can really be pushed. Plows through crud. Makes sweet gs turns. Awesome ski. I think it is pretty comparable to the G3.
post #15 of 31
You can either demo or buy something and ski it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the Head 2003 thread Bob.Peters says he demoed 6 pairs of shorty slaloms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!At $40 a pop he probably could have bought a pair!!!!!!!!!!!

The snow conditions and weather frequently change by the hour--faster than you can change your skis!!!!! I've tried and can't directly compare skis because the conditions change every run!!!

Buy what's on sale and deal with it!!!

post #16 of 31
I totally disagree with the above derogation of trying different skis - some skis will inhibit progress, others will allow it. If the person above who weighs 200 pounds had simply purchased the Pilot 10 [which he concedes he did not like], he would have been unhappy. This is like saying that you can save money on dating - just propose to the first available woman and marry her if she says yes. Sure, people sometimes do that and make the best of it. And sure, sometimes people who have "been around" don't land in durable and happy marriages. However, for most folks, getting to know people helps in making decisions - about whom to marry, whom to hire, whom to place on a sports team.

I will conceded that I demo way beyond what I expect anyone else to do, and of course I'm happy to share my experiences, especially for the sake of skiers who are comparable to me in weight, skill and desired results. However, anyone CAN demo, and since conditions do change, it does make sense to demo the same ski in the same length in a variety of conditions.

It isn't at all necessary to demo every single ski, either. Although I would have liked to achieve that at the dealers' trade show, I just couldn't - there were just too many different skis. However, by judicious reading and planning, it's posssible to know the skis on which you should focus. In some cases, I knew during one single run that the skis I was on, in that length, were not the best for me. Sometimes, I could tell that a shorter or longer length might be worth trying. Other times, I already would be on the shortest length, and the skis still felt like lumber. So it doesn't take a million trials. The Salomon Crossmax Pilot 10 in 170 cm was instantly pleasant for me, right off the lift, and performed well for me all over the mountain. The 160 cm length in that same ski was much too demanding and squirrelly to enjoy. One run on each told me that without question.

I also discovered that in real boilerplate on which skis leave barely a mark, although some skis did better than others, I didn't really care, because I hate boilerplate no matter what - sure, I can survive and negotiate the terrain, but it feels awful. However, some snow is hard, but less impervious to the edges of skis, and on that type of hard snow, some skis allowed me more pleasure than others.

As I have reported on this site in more than one location, I did identify three models for the 2002-2003 season that I really enjoyed, and I compared them to each other. I then succeeded in finding one that stood head and shoulders above the others, for me, not only in comparison to each other, but also in comparison with the skis I already owned. I bought those skis, the Rossignol Bandit XX in 170 cm - and, even allowing for the continuing need for improvement in technique, these skis make all the difference. The result, for me, is greater pleasure, less inhibition to development of technique, and much greater confidence - so I know that any lapses are mine and not the skis', and I have confidence to tackle so much terrain that has intimidated me before.

To demo skis is to learn about skis and about your own skiing. Others may do as they see fit, but I strongly recommend that anyone who is able to do so and open minded enough to seek and find differences, demo to the hilt!

[ April 24, 2002, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: oboe ]
post #17 of 31
Last year I demoed every time I skied, as I had no skis. I had been encouraged to demo to find the "right" ski. I tried 10 or 20 pairs of skis. Some I tried for more than 1 day, others for only 1 run. I demoed some from the expensive place at the bottom of the hill, thinking that by comparing the skis 1 run apart, the comparisons would be easier.

I found that even 1 run apart, between the sun, the wind, and the snow, the conditions changed rapidly and I couldn't compare apples to apples!!!!!

I found the tune was probably more important than the ski itself. A Machete G from one place sucked, and a Machete G from another place was one of my favorites!!!!! Of course, the conditions changed, too, since they were different days!!!!

I decided THERE ARE NO BAD SKIS!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that when you find a pair of skis that feels perfect to you, it's a ski that rewards your current technique. If you ski perfectly, that's great. If you don't ski perfectly, maybe you don't want a ski that rewards your current technique!!!!!!

Demoing is a lot of fun - I and many other people (like Oboe) enjoy it immensely. But, it gets really expensive. If I hit the lotto, I could maybe afford to demo all the skis I find interesting!!!!!

I don't think for most people, demoing is necessarily going to result in them buying the "perfect" ski for them, or even close to it. There are too many variables and not enough ski days (leaving out the technique question) for most people to make a perfect choice!!!

Demoing will most likely result in a fairly good choice. Doing a little research and just buying SOMETHING will also most likely result in a fairly good choice - because THERE ARE NO BAD SKIS!!!!!!!!

Demoing is fun - if you like it and can afford it, do it!!! Otherwise, do a little research and buy something. If you have to adjust your technique a little for your choice, maybe your technique needs adjusted anyway!!!!!

post #18 of 31

Your words are a statement of your character. The fact that certain skis felt "best" for you suggest that other skis may feel "best: for others. i.e. To each his own.

I offer a counter position:

The Only skis I have ever demoed were a pair of Olin Mark IV's in 1972 and a pir or K2 axis somethings last year. I didn't care one way or the other, and I was still skiing a "Traditional" ski last year. (K2 MSL in 203cm).

I make my selection by reading reviews and then taking what comes my way. (think $$$)
I ski three different Types of skis and have more, I even have a pair of Swiss Army AT skis. ($35)

I like to try other skis, even old skis if they fit my boots.

My present selection cost less than $200 each sans bindings.
I have mentioned the skis elswhere in the list. My selection criteria is that I need my skis to reliably take me as my responsibilities demand, "Any run, any conditions, any time", and I want to have FUN.

I made a decision to only bring fat skis along on a ski week to the rockies. I do not regret it.! On the first day there was much difficulty getting those wide boards off their old edges. They were hanging and skidding in all kinds of ways that felt "bad". If I had been evaluating them as demos, I would have said "NOT for Me".

After several hours, I quit noticing the ski. (except for the sharp sounds over crust, resonating in the wood core) The skis did what was asked in a most delightful way. The snow conditions changed so much through a spring day, I was able to ski on just about every snow type. ' Chicken heads and boggie wheel boulders, Hard snow, moguls, rotten snow that would send your pole into the grip. 'Steep faces and groomed crusers. On run down a frozen after groomed "poppyfields" felt like an iced race coarse. A fall would have been a slide to the bottom. Good edges..good thing! We even had a day of powder deep enough to float on. I put a full week on the explosives, and now wonder if I need any other ski.

Oh, they are a bit clunky in the tight bumps, but I am learning to get around that by skiing the double line when the bumps are hard and tight. When I put them on edge, they really show some realestate on their undersides, and they arc and carve like on rails. I really can't fault them, and they are a "specialty ski".

I have heard it said that a soft ski will let you get by with anything. Perhaps the skis selected are just soft. I think not.

I do think that if you take a good all mountain ski you can't go far wrong. The transparent extension of oneself through the tool takes a bit of time to get familiar.
The delema of LENGTH will always be an issue. To that I say "Trust the force"!
Except for the possibility of a race ski, I will favor a bit of length, if only so I can keep the tips in view in front of my ever expanding middle.

If one can demo the exact ski wanted , then there won't be any suprises.

My character doesn't mind suprises.

Now, if I could just convince myself I don't really want / need the P-50 AND the G4 And what about all those Stocklis and Fishers and Heads........... I'll take them all, untried .. And try them!

post #19 of 31
In many shops, the cost of the demo is deducted from the purchase price of the ski, if you end up buying from them. And I think people are correct in stating that your skiing style will adjust somewhat to the ski you choose. Last year, I did some research, and selected 3-4 skis that seemed to fit my criteria, demoed those skis, and selected the one I liked best. I'm sure I would have been happy on any of those skis, but when dropping that kind of $$$, I didn't want any lingering doubts.
post #20 of 31
CalG and mxp, Although I'm not sure it has anything to do with my "character", you both apparently agree with my premise: Each person is the only judge of what"s "best" for him- or herself. That's why I so strongly recommend that each person demo skis to the extent feasible. I also have advised that, before doing the demo thing, a skier would be best served doing some reading and zeroing in on what to demo. Although your posts are couched in words opposing my point of view, we actually don't have all that much disagreement, except that all skis start to feel alike - they don't to me.

Each person determines the importance of cost, so that's a purely personal thing. It is important to note, as Chronic points out, that the cost of two or three demo rentals frequently are deducted from the purchase price of th ski ultimately selected, and he says basically what I've said, but in fewer words [I concede that verbosity IS a part of my "character"].

Although my technique necessarily has adjusted to whatever ski I use over time, some adjustments work out better than others - but although there may be no "bad" skis, they all are very, very different for me. At 145 pounds, a ski too long or too stiff just makes life miserable; and a ski that's great on groomed but can't handle deeper snow very well is a chore for me - since I like to ski off piste. And even in skis made for similar purposes, they feel different, and one is, for me,more fun than another.

Perhaps the most important kind of thing to demo, once a particular model of ski is selected, is length. I hate the Bandit XX' in 177 cm or longer, but I am in love with my Bandit XX's in 170 cm.

Anyway, I certainly support the maxim, "To each his/her own".

[ April 24, 2002, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: oboe ]
post #21 of 31

I don't even want to dissagree. Only discover.

My experience with discovery has been fun, and I want that to continue. I offered an alternate perspective to analysis by demo. This has worked for me, It may work for others.
We diverge on how much difference can be fully understood under the conditions of a demo. MXP has expressed concern over meaningful evaluation with changing conditions. I feel that one can get to know the tool and do quite well.

A blatant admission! I do have more than one pair of skis! There must be a difference!
Perhaps your sensitivity can find a "best compromise", and do with less equipment. Certainly I have more into my three pair than If I had but one.

I select my tool with consideration for the days potential. I likely wouldn't bring the P-30s on a snow day by choice. This year, they were on my feet when the snow was 6 inches and fresh. I used to find excuses not to take the P-30's in the bumps or the trees. Now, I just do, fine.

I have been finding that the differences become less important, and my enjoyment of skiing keeps increasing. That is good.

I need help to understand how an all mountain ski can hold back ones progress. Stiff is stiff, and if stiff causes fear, then you won't be able to work at your best. That I can see.

post #22 of 31
you both apparently agree with my
premise: Each person is the only judge of what"s "best" for him- or herself.
I agree that each person is the only judge of what's best for them - but I don't think that people are always very good judges! The ski that felt "best" in my demos last year was the Rossi Viper Z - probably one of the least shapely of the shaped skis. I suspect I liked it because it best supported my regression to old school techniques when the going gets rough. I think buying that ski would have hampered my progress in skiing!!!

except that all skis start to feel alike - they don't
to me.
I didn't say they felt alike - I said that if they were properly tuned, they all felt GOOD!!!!!!

that the cost of two or three demo rentals frequently are deducted from the purchase price of th ski
ultimately selected
This is true - but if I demoed all the skis I'm interested in, especially in different lengths, they'd have to GIVE me a pair of skis (or more) to break even!!! Last year I demoed 10 or 20 times - so giving me 80 bucks off when I buy is no big deal!!!

Perhaps the most important kind of thing to demo, once a particular model of ski is selected, is length. I hate the
Bandit XX' in 177 cm or longer, but I am in love with my Bandit XX's in 170 cm.
No argument there. I think that length (and tune) make as big a difference as anything.

I don't think demoing is BAD, and it is a lot of fun. I think it also depends whether you already have a decent pair of skis or not. I didn't have my own skis last year and only skied on demos. This meant that every time I went, I was adjusting to skis that felt different. So while I was taking lessons and trying to improve my technique, I had the added challenge of skiing on different skis every day. I think I would have done better to go buy a pair of anything decent and ski on them for a year, and have the same pair to take lessons on, practice, etc. I would have developed a feel for my skis instead of have skis that felt different every time.

I think my situation last year was similar to John11's now, since I took a few (too many) years away from skiing. I skied on demos for a year and feel that was a mistake for me. This year I bought some cheap skis (new, older model) and I at least know what they'll feel like when I strap them on. Things that I learn in lessons feel the same when I practice them the next time out, more than they did last year on different demos.

Now that I've skied for a year on the same skis every day, if I did go demo, I'd have a better basis for comparison. For you guys that have a closet full of skis that you know and love, and know instantly when you're on them how they are going to respond to different inputs, demoing is probably much more effective since you can compare the characteristics of each demo ski to a variety of skis that you know well.
post #23 of 31
remember like seven years ago, when all skis were skinny and straight....and people still had these damn arguments.....
post #24 of 31
Completely agree, get a deal, buy, enjoy.
post #25 of 31
Damn Gearheads, We are all alike.

Don't get me going on motorcycles!

The truth is often painful.

post #26 of 31
John11 - I'm 6'0 205. I ski Mt Hood as my local hill. Conditions are pretty similar to Tahoe (you're in Palo Alto I think ?) My everyday ski for the last few years has been the Salomon X-Scream series. I ski it in a 187 and find it to be one of the most fun ski's I have every been on. The X-Scream doesn't offer the absolute best of any attribute of a ski. It does everything well enough that it is a ball to ski on though. Biggest sweet-spot I have ever experienced. I demo'd some of the other ski's you mention. The Volkll and the Rossi XX are great ski's. They have higher speed limits than my X-Screams. Those higher limits come at a cost though. The Rossi and the Volkll bother require more attention on the part of the pilot and require considerably more energy to work. I find that in the trees, the steeps and the crud the forgiving nature of the X-Scream combined with it's reasonably high level of performance make the ski more enjoyable. They will go like hell when turned loose so even though the speed limit is lower than others, it's still plenty high!

The XScreams are also plentiful in the used market. If you're new to the game, or have been away for a while, maybe a used set will get you through for a season or two. That's worth a look. In Portland they are $450 to $475 new. I suspect that this will have been the last year they are in production. A production run of 4 years is an eternity in the ski industry. Just a great all around ski.

The other ski that I would try is the K2 Axis X, not the Pro. My wife loves her's. You see lots of patrollers working on them. As an ex-patroller, I can tell you that when you're working on the hill a forgiving ski is a very desirable thing. You tend to spend considerable time on auto-pilot watching the hill and not paying attention to your ski's.
post #27 of 31
I've been sitting back enjoying the banter in this thread about demo / don't-demo, how many skis do you really need to demo (or have in your quiver), how "different" are skis, etc., and I came to some conclusions:

1) Such questions are a lot like asking, "How many wines should I try?", or "How many wines should I keep on hand?"

2) Like some of the participants, I have had days where I have astonished myself by being quite contented skiing hardpack on Explosiv's (exactly as mentioned) and skiing deep spring slop on p40's. In fact, this just happened to me a few weeks ago.

3) Like other participants, I have had days and days where I delighted in switching skis every hour and enjoying the fine (and not so fine) distinctions between them and being completely convinced that I would be able to make important generalizations and inferences from my experiences.

4) OTOH, like other participants, I have had demo days where I swore to myself that I would never again waste my time doing this because the hour-to-hour variation in snow, traffic and tiredness vastly surpassed any ski to ski differences that I could detect.

5) Finally, like others, I have on many occasions concluded that my skiing had regressed so badly that any reasonable pair of skis should be more than adequate for me.

What astonishes me is that I could argue any side of this debate based on honest personal experience. This is a very rare position for me. Normally, on technical & gear topics, I'm about as opinionated as they get. This tells me that (a) there are a lot of confounding factors, and (b) these questions are only on the edge of the technical realm, and more into the realm of personal preference, ski technique, etc..

What I do know is this, if I had to start from scratch picking skis for myself, I would be pretty unhappy with just one pair, but if I had a reasonable quality hard snow ski, and a reasonable quality soft snow ski, I would be content to fill any remaining niches in the quiver quite leasurely. Then again, that would be like only having one type of red and one type of white wine in the basement - grin.

Tom / PM
post #28 of 31
I've got a better idea on the demo deal,when you go to buy ski's and do your "research" you will narrow your list to the brands you like & to the type of ski you are looking for to suit the terrain you ski,if you are above intermediate level you will understand all the reviews & opinions or at least most, also you should know what length you are looking for,the problem with demos are you don't end up with the binding you would buy & the tune of the ski & the availability of the ski you want in the length you want are questionable,so it is rarely an apples to apples comparison.what I did this year was buy the two ski's I narrowed my list to ,put the same binding on both,had them tuned & waxed,go ski.they were the axis x & the axis x pro both in 181cm with marker 1200 piston bindings,I shopped hard found decent deals & after skiing them both for a few days decided I loved the pro but was not in love with the axis x allthough it was a good allaround ski moreso than the pro.so I sold the axis x to rustyedge,I'm glad he loves them, of course I sold them for less than I paid, I still got the ski I want & only lost the cost of demoing a few days.what I really gained was I got to ski these ski's setup for me for multiple days a true apples to apples comparison.now I am not rich just a poor guy faking it but if you shop hard you can find deals.just my .02 but it worked for me on a footnote I just bought a k2 mach s for next season,this is a ski that is hard to find in summit county to demo.
post #29 of 31

I love that idea!!!!!!!!

I will probably follow your lead on this for my next pair of skis!!!!!

Way to go - and nice faking!!

: :
post #30 of 31

I just want to clarify a little on my demo "technique".

When I demoed short slaloms, I tried four of them in one day, for one demo fee. The other two skis I got for free at company demo days. So, I demoed all six skis for a total price of about $35.

And personally, I don't ever find much problem comparing conditions across a day. The big mountains I ski (Utah and Wyoming) almost always have a complete variety of conditions. It usually takes less than half an hour for me to run a pair of skis through hard/soft snow, groomers, bumps, and junk. It's never been a problem for me. I can easily demo five or six pairs in a day without any trouble at all.

As far as the argument about the ski that feels "perfect" being something that might prevent me from developing better technique, that's a hard one to call. I'm not vain enough to think there isn't a lot I can learn, but I also think there's no way that any of the skis we're talking about are going to hold me back if I'm actively learning. Practically every higher-end ski on the market today is capable of delivering much higher performance than what even most "expert" skiers ever get out of it.

Fun topic.

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