"Hey man, the greens at whistler are like blues everywhere else"

Ok, your title says greens at whistler like blues everywhere else, but your post says blues at whistler are like greens everywhere else. Don't want to sound like the cheshire cat in Alice in Wonderland, but if one statement is true, is the converse true?

All things are relative. Coming from New England, a whistler green can be like some NE blacks. On the other hand, a green whistler trsil can get so freakin crowded that its easier to ski a blue. BTW, at fernie, nothing is TRULY green for a new englander, despite the trail markings!

If you read the trail map carefully at most resorts, there will be a statement on there that the trail ratings relate ONLY to their own resort. So it's not only possible for your brother in law to feel this way but could be true. It's all relative to the resort. Our resorts here in Southern Cal have DOUBLE BLACKS on the trail maps that are like a difficult BLUE at Mammoth. However, compared to the rest of the mountain, they just might be the closest thing to a double black.

In my opinion, Sun Valley is one of those places where there isn't a "true" GREEN run on the entire mountain. They suggest that those in need of green runs go over to Dollar Mtn in town. If you could pick up their runs and place them on most other mountains, I'd guess that most of their blue runs would be blacks elsewhere.

Greens at W/B are cattracks. VERY green. There is NOTHING EXCEPTIONAL about the trail markings at Whistler/Blackcomb.

[ December 26, 2002, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]

Yeah but those cattracks can get freaky with the boarders coming down from one side, and if they hit you, you fall down a cliff. Believe it or not, some of the green trails like whiskey jack would actually be a blue at a place like bretton woods.

Easterners...sigh...



Yes, Lisa, cattracks can become precarious avenues in the right situations - like when it's going home time and skiers and boarders of all varieties and skill levels crowd the same boulevard - but as far as trail markings, W/B is nothing out of the ordinary. Some of those exposed tracks, like Burnt Stew on top, can get "fun" when it's howling up there and you can't see the skier in front of you, but as far as the PITCH of the runs, for example, you're pretty much getting what you'd expect; but that's just one person's experience.
Ski Santa Fe, for example, is one of the comparitively flatter hills I've ever visited, but because they compare runs on their own hill, they actually find a couple short pitches they'll call black. And there's a black - PARACHUTE, I think - that starts at a pitch that is closer to greeen and "steepens" to what I would call a blue run.
It's all relative, OR

"One man's ceiling is another man's floor."

Woah hold up a sec here. Don't sell New England Short. There's a big difference between the super-popular "McSkiing" New England ski areas, and the areas that lay claim to suberb terrain.

I'm sure a green circle at whistler would be a blue square at Loon Mountain, or even a Black Diamond at Bretton Woods or Waterville Valley. However, a few areas here in the east are devoid of true novice terrain, and as such have way underrated novice runs. Magic Mountain, Wildcat Mountain, Mad River Glen, Saddleback Mountain, Sugarloaf/USA, Plattekill, and Cannon Mountain all have green circles that would rate as Blue squares at many western areas, and black diamonds at a few.

I can't speak to Whistler from experience but I can compare the east with western areas I have skied.

For Instance:
At Wildcat the "Polecat" trail would easily rate a black diamond at Deer Valley, and a blue square at Vail or Aspen.
At Magic Mountain the blue square "Wizard" would rate as a black diamond almost anywhere.
At Mad River Glen (voted #3 on the continent for challenge last year in the annual "Ski readers survey" behind Alta and Jackson Hole) Any Green Circle would be a Blue Square at every other area, and every single blue square would be rated at least a black diamnd most places. The blue rated "Quacky" would likely be a double black diamond at many places, even out west.

Naturally the stereotype of the "eastern ski area" is that the snow is always rock hard, the people are always rude, and all the trails are easy. But That's only true at places like Loon, Okemo, Mount Snow, etc... jam packed to the gills with long island mechanics and factory workers, all sporting Jets and Giants starter jackets... the ultimate definition of what's sometimes called a "gaper." Most new england mountains are chock full of flannel wearing backwoods types (just like out west), who bring their kill/catch of the day into the lodge for lunch. These mountains are steep and rough, with true expert runs ranging from 30° at a minimum to the steepest at 63° (Cannon's "Tramline"). The people are supremely friendly, the type who will not only stop to help dig out your car in a 3' storm like the one southern Vermont had last night, but will flag down other drivers to help too. Those mountains are littered with well formed moguls, super-tight trees, and killer steeps. Do you really think that Donna Weinbrecht, the DesLauriers brothers, the Egan brothers, Billy Kidd, Bode Miller, Kirsten Clark, and others could really have learned their craft on the bunny hill? I highly doubt it. New England stands tall alongside anything else, saving only in elevation.

Every hill strives for that magic 25% beginner / 50% intermediate / 25% advanced terrain formula the ski consumers are looking for. If the terrain on their hill doesn't fit that, they simply adjust the yardsticks to make it fit.

The best places on WB for early beginners are the Magic Chair and the Olympic Chair. Once you become a little more confident, you will love the Emerald area, sort of upper green. It has everything; open groomers, mild bumps, gentle tree skiing, a fun race course, and an easy terrain park.

Other than the above areas, its true that beginners will find themselves on the access roads, which are narrow, busy, and not much fun. However, on the many wide open smooth blues, it is easy to advance your skills and confidence quickly.

106 cms fresh in the last 3 days, and another storm on the way! The Emerald area is also a great place to learn to ski the powder in the "secret" stashes, which aren't too hard to find!

I get your point Mittersill, but let's not get too carried away: I've skied Polecat, and I've skied Deer Valley. I have to disagree. :

I love Mad River. I've skied Paradise several times, but it's not even close to #3 on the CONTINENT??. [img]redface.gif[/img] That's a meaningless ranking skewed by people who have probably never even skied in the West, and have certainly never skied Taos, Whistler, Squaw Valley, Snowbird, and a dozen others. I realize that is not what you are necessarily claiming, and I do agree that it is probably #1 in the east, but I don't know about your "Quacky" comparison. Sounds a bit much.

63 degrees?? : : I skied Cannon once about 6 years ago. I don't remember skiing anything close to 63 degrees. A 63 degree trail in typical eastern conditions would have to be unskiable 95% of the time unless you're talking about a very short portion of a trail. You sure you don't mean a 63% grade? [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ December 27, 2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Carvemeister ]

I also have to disagree about The Loaf. I love Sugarloaf, its my favorite, but most of those are probably the easiest greens on the continent. One of my instructors, a tough 75 year old broad won't even let me do a warm up run on any of the greens. She thinks that they are so easy that they are a waste of my time. That's probably a bit over the top, but you get my drift.
I also think Tote Road is a moderately easy Blue, compared to something like Rock n' Roll at Blackcomb.

What JR is saying about WB is quite true. I went to Whistler? Blackcomb the first year I learned to ski. Everybody has different things than frighten them, and I am INFINITELY more terrified on a narrow trail, crowded with out of control skiers and boarders, than I am of a wider steeper and bumpier one.

Within 2 days I was skiing blues just so that I can get a breath of fresh air!

6 years ago the "Tramline" wasnt a trail. It wasn't even a trail last year. I virtually guarantee that unless you were there in the 2000-2001 season, you didn't ski it in recent years. For most of Cannon's history you would be arrested by the state police for tresspassing if you skied it.

All that changes this season. Over the summer they re-cut the trail. As far as the pitch goes. The actuall pitch of the ground underneath the snow is never more than say 50°-52°, but a large cornice forms at Tower #2 underneath the Tram which is definately between 60° and 65°. The only time the trail is skiable is right after a large storm (because of about a million jagged boulders), and in those circumstances the cornice is huge.
So yes, the trail is unskiable 95% of the time, probably more like 97% of the time come to think of it. But the fact remains. Cannon is rating the Tramline as a plain ol' Black Diamond, no overblown ratings there. To be honest it probably shouldnt be an in-bounds run. It wouldn't be most places, even out west. According to the backcountry rating system it rates an S7, the most severe rating in use. By Contrast, none of the major routes in Tuckerman Ravine are more than an S5.

As explained in "Backcountry Skiing Adventures" by David Goodman:
"S7 - Slopes over 60 degrees. Looks dead vertical to most people, and most people would look dead if they tried it. You need a pilot's license to get down."

If you check out the USGS topo maps, you'll easily varify this claim.

Everyone here has valid points about Green/Blue/Black runs. Let me speak from a beginner's point of view.

I just got back from Whistler...had only skiied twice before in my life on a "man-made hill" close to home (Louisville, KY). Whistler was a bit overwhelming at first...but I adapted after just a few short days. Some of the Green Runs did seem very tough...I could not believe they were Green...but after a few days, I was hitting the Blues and enjoying them even more. The Greens at Whistler (especially Upper Whiskey Jack) was just jammed with people. I think I learned to slalom just from that experience alone!

I guess the comment about the color of the run is relative to the resort is true. Green runs at Whistler were tougher than I thought...but only for a day or two. And by the way...the place is awesome!

"That's only true at places like Loon, Okemo, Mount Snow, etc... jam packed to the gills with long island mechanics and factory workers, all sporting Jets and Giants starter jackets..."

Hey Mitters from Melrose:

Yeah, I've never been almost fatally cut-off on a NE hill by a boarder clad in a kelly green Celtics jacket screaming "Pats baby, woo-hoo!" before a Patriots-Raiders playoff game. And I've certainly never been bothered by runs clogged with loud, obnoxious drunks in the latest Red Sox/Bruins wear trying to ski while sucking down enough Rumpleminz to euthanize a small lab monkey. And just for the record, when was the last time anyone was on a mountain filled with 'long island mechanics and factory workers'? That's not exactly the market for your precious Ski magazine. The point is, I may be new to this board, but I'm from New York and I ski NE hills all the time (without the Giants jacket, mind you), and I'm constantly amazed that you and your Massachusetts brethren seem to think there's a quantum difference in decorum between denizens or our respective locales. I say jerks are jerks, whether they're from Long Island, Boston, Philadelphia or Melrose. Try keeping the geographical aspersions to yahself.

Well, you're right about that. But being from Long island myself, I'll be the first to admit that most of the jerks you'll see on the slopes come from the more urban areas. And the NY, Long Island areas are the biggest. Thus we are the major donors particularly at southern Vt. areas like Mt. Slow and Killington.

But go to Sugarloaf, where most of the obnoxious skiers are from the Boston area, and the Maine locals have a very catchy name for those in particular. Probably for good reason.

Lets see who can be the first from Mass. to tell us what it is! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

is it "folks from away, that are numb as a hake" ??????

Mass Holes. See my rant about that term in the supporters section.

But being a native New Yorker for most of my life, but living for the last 7 years, I should probably stay out of this argument! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Stop the clock! Lisamarie wins it. I'm a bit disappointed that it took 3 hrs. to find a caller with the right answer though.

Nice job Lisamarie. Although I believe the proper spelling may be one word and not two, we're giving you the win anyhow.
[img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]

...back on topic (cause it's the first time I've read it)
I posted a thing a while back about this, but suffice it to say, you're not going insane.
Once you've skied Val d'Isere, you'll know that some piste maps are drawn by people who are colour blind

S