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Sandwich skis Q

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Are sandwich skiis allways better than regular ones if we dont consider price? Ore are advatages mainly showing on icy racing tracks?
post #2 of 26
In my opinion the avantages are more apparent on groomed snow and icy hard pack. Laminate skis with vertical sidewalls are tpically superior (when i say typically i mean always) to a cap or half cap ski on groomed snow. When it comes to all mountain performance, it depends how strong of a skier you are. A softer easier ski to ski on that is not a full laminate may suit you better than a fairly stiff race bread ski. It comes down to personal preference. There are few people out there that will ever use the entire performance envelope of a ski like the Stockli Stormride XL, but there are many people who will easily see and use the advantages that it offers on groomed snow.
Later
GREG
post #3 of 26
I'll never go back to a cap ski. All of the Stockli middle line and top line skis are laminate/straight sidewall.

Much smoother ski .....
post #4 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by HeluvaSkier:
In my opinion the avantages are more apparent on groomed snow and icy hard pack. Laminate skis with vertical sidewalls are tpically superior (when i say typically i mean always) to a cap or half cap ski on groomed snow. When it comes to all mountain performance, it depends how strong of a skier you are. A softer easier ski to ski on that is not a full laminate may suit you better than a fairly stiff race bread ski. It comes down to personal preference. There are few people out there that will ever use the entire performance envelope of a ski like the Stockli Stormride XL, but there are many people who will easily see and use the advantages that it offers on groomed snow.
Later
GREG
ATOMIC???????
post #5 of 26
Ummm, what ever. All Atomic GS and SL skis used on the World Cup (which is the epitome of ski performance) are Beta construction very similar to the versions at the retailer. Atomic has had a few decent results since they started using the construction. The reason that the speed event skis are sandwich is because they are easier to repair when they need it, and the wood core provides very high damping. The wood core does not contribute to the longevity of the ski or the flex characteristics, it infact deters from it. Flex is determined by the wrap of fiberglass and metal. The longevity is compromised because many layers stacked on top of each other create shearing forces at each layer, which eventually fail after many cycles of extreme flexing. These forces also create the vibrations which in turn requires more metal or external devices to absorb, leading to very heavy skis (which is less of an issue in downhill and super-g races). The final reason for the use of sandwich is because it is cheaper to alter a mould when creating new shapes than cap type moulds.

Sandwich construction is old technology. The use of composites and exotic metals is the norm in all high performance sports and industries. How about wearing wool and oilskin clothing instead of new synthetics and leather boots and cable bindings in lieu of plastic shells and safety bindings? They used it in the past... It must be WAY better then.

[ January 28, 2004, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: BetaRacer ]
post #6 of 26
I knew someone would bring up Atomic. Atomic is the only exception to the laminate 'rule' as far as how they build their race skis. The Atomic race stock skis are slightly different though. The beta lobes are more pronounced, with more flat space in between... from my experience with them anyways. I have skied the stock SL:11 back to back with a few different laminate skis, and i would take the laminate ski. I dont see laminate as old technology, just look what is done with it in newer skis. Atomic does have impressive finishes, but i bet that underneath the Beta in their GS and SL WC skis there are two sheets of metal that take the load - or the metal topsheet is acually molded into the beta lobes - sacraficing torsional stiffness for longitudinal stiffness. Either way, there is most likely a laminate section of the ski that bears the load of the beta structure. I'm still waiting for the day that Beta disappears in their race line. They are the only company who hasnt gone to a complete laminate on their WC skis. I suspect that it will become less of a part of the construction - ie. pushed to the sides, or become flatter lobes with a nearly vertical sidewall, whether it be laminate or cap. Either way, Atomic will never rid themselves of beta in the consumer line, whether it is better or not. They have built a name for themselves, and now have a brainwashed following. I have skied atomics, they are good, but they are not what people make them out to be. Most racers i know who have been all atomic in the past are dropping their atomics and moving to companies like Nordica, Rossignol, Elan, and Volkl. The best way to find out which is better is to ski both types of skis. Compare a ski like the Stormrider XL to the R.EX...
Later
GREG
post #7 of 26
Betaracer:

Nice Job!!!!

Greg, in case you have not noticed, I have seen -0- (OK maybe one Swiss downhiller)on the World Cup with Stockli's.

It seems to me more racers are showing up on Atomic than ever. (And Wow! look at all those Atomic Race-Tech boots this season, how di that happen?)

It also seems to me everyone including Volkl and Fischer are putting top profiles on their consumer skis very similar to the Beta design! Look the top of a Volkl 6 star.

I skied Volkls for at least 25 years. They were great!

I skied on a Volkl P60 Race Stock GS at Mammoth last month! Flat top & sidewalls! My off the shelf SX11 kicks the sh__ out of them.

My son's World cup GS11 & SL11 makes other skis seem like they came from Toys are Uus. Do you really think Pallender, Walchofer, Maier, and many others ski on Atomic because they get them free? Oh, they just must like inferior technology.

Also, I tried a World Cup Rossi GS & Slalom. More toxic firewood in my opinion. Absolute junk!!!! Oh, by the way, they had a sidewall & flat top.

One more thing, on the contrary, Beta allows more longitidinal flex with more torsional rigidity.

Anyway, have fun on your old, wood core SQUARE SKIS!!!

Over & out!

CW
post #8 of 26
From what ive seen all the Salomon Wc and europa cup skis (eXCEPT dh or sg) are cap construction, ive had several pairs of the WC slaloms and they have all been this way it appears that the skis used by janica, and sebastian amiez etc are too. Also quick question about atomic wc boots why do they appear to be all flat soled compared to the shop version which has toe and heel interface system (not sure what its actUally called as you can tell....)??

[ January 29, 2004, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: simonsays ]
post #9 of 26
With all due respect with regards to Atomic, when you are a WC racer, you go where the money is. To suggest that you, as a member of the general public, are getting anything like a ski that the WC boys and girls use is absurd.

I am just waiting for the shoe to drop with Ambrosi Hoffmann now that he has had a WC podium on Stockli ... Atomic will probably lure him over with the big bucks.

The straight sidewall skis have been creeping back in in the last two years. As well as the Elans, I have noted a strong presence by Fischer too, on the racks and available to the public.

The lack of performance and pro-form ball breaking sent me over to Stockli, the Volkl and Atomics that I had available as an instructor where just not cutting it.
post #10 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by simonsays:
From what ive seen all the Salomon Wc and europa cup skis (eXCEPT dh or sg) are cap construction, ive had several pairs of the WC slaloms and they have all been this way it appears that the skis used by janica, and sebastian amiez etc are too. Also quick question about atomic wc boots why do they appear to be all flat soled compared to the shop version which has toe and heel interface system (not sure what its actUally called as you can tell....)??
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading somewhere on this forum, a while ago, that Salomon race stock skis are basically a sandwich ski with a cosmetic cap i.e. the cap bears very little load.
post #11 of 26
D(C), you are correct. I think that the cap is cosmetic, but it allows for the edge to be see off the plan of the sidewall, which is interesting to me. The Salomon GS skis in fact have more edgehold than any other ski i have ever been on - including atomics. One question for the Atomic skiers: How does a double lobe construction with no continuity between the lobes, and not metal structure running acorss the top of the ski offer superior torsional stiffness? Is it just because Atomic says it does? If you actually look at how a beta lobe is constructed you will notice that by bending any material into a tube, you immediately decrease its ability to flex longitudinally, much like the design of an I-beam, but in reverse form. The tough in the middle of the skis construction does ntohing to increase torsional stiffness. The possibility is though, that they are so incredibly stiff longitudinally, that they have to retain some amount of torsional stiffness. One more thing to point out - the construction of retail Volkl skis SUCKS.

I had a Volkl rep and coach tell me last night that compared to his P60 race stock skis his Six Stars are a POS in any conditions. I have skied a good number of Volkl skis to hold this to be true to their retail line. The things that are on the top of skis recently are NOT LOAD BEARING STRUCTURES! They liken themselves to dampening systems like the K2 MOD, and Salomon ProLink. Notice that in most cases these types of lobes are dropped on the race stock skis - ie Fischer, and dont try to tell me that Fischer makes bad race skis. Skiing on Atomics and claiming that all other ski companies make out of date crappy skis must be bliss... after all that is what ignorance is right? I pray for the day that i can get ahold of a true WC Atomic SL or GS ski and find out what is really under those little lumps, because im willing to bet that it is a laminate ski in disguise, with the beta offering only stiffness and dampening.

Later

GREG
post #12 of 26
Just so it is clear... Atomic only has a few salary skiers, Maier, Eberharter, Raich among a few others. Ralves has a contract with Atomic US. Many of the top finishers are only on win schedules, where they get money depending on how they finish. The reason you see so many Atomics on the World Cup is because racers want to earn money, and they do this by finishing well. Bode Miller is skiing on Rossignol because of the lure of 2 million dollars. Lasse Kjus moved over to Dynastar because they offered him more money than he was winning (and he switched back to Atomic boots that he buys).

There is less metal in the top sheet of a World Cup GS Atomic ski than compared to the retail version. The flattened lobes are to make it easier to mount the DH/SG plate designed for a flat deck ski. Don't expect to see an Atomic sandwich ski in technical races any time soon.

I don't think Atomic fans are brain washed. I think sandwich fans are uninformed.
post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by yuki:
With all due respect with regards to Atomic, when you are a WC racer, you go where the money is. To suggest that you, as a member of the general public, are getting anything like a ski that the WC boys and girls use is absurd.

I am just waiting for the shoe to drop with Ambrosi Hoffmann now that he has had a WC podium on Stockli ... Atomic will probably lure him over with the big bucks.

The straight sidewall skis have been creeping back in in the last two years. As well as the Elans, I have noted a strong presence by Fischer too, on the racks and available to the public.

The lack of performance and pro-form ball breaking sent me over to Stockli, the Volkl and Atomics that I had available as an instructor where just not cutting it.
Sorry chief, but my son has the "REAL" World Cup skis and boots!!!
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by HeluvaSkier:
D(C), you are correct. I think that the cap is cosmetic, but it allows for the edge to be see off the plan of the sidewall, which is interesting to me. The Salomon GS skis in fact have more edgehold than any other ski i have ever been on - including atomics. One question for the Atomic skiers: How does a double lobe construction with no continuity between the lobes, and not metal structure running acorss the top of the ski offer superior torsional stiffness? Is it just because Atomic says it does? If you actually look at how a beta lobe is constructed you will notice that by bending any material into a tube, you immediately decrease its ability to flex longitudinally, much like the design of an I-beam, but in reverse form. The tough in the middle of the skis construction does ntohing to increase torsional stiffness. The possibility is though, that they are so incredibly stiff longitudinally, that they have to retain some amount of torsional stiffness. One more thing to point out - the construction of retail Volkl skis SUCKS.

I had a Volkl rep and coach tell me last night that compared to his P60 race stock skis his Six Stars are a POS in any conditions. I have skied a good number of Volkl skis to hold this to be true to their retail line. The things that are on the top of skis recently are NOT LOAD BEARING STRUCTURES! They liken themselves to dampening systems like the K2 MOD, and Salomon ProLink. Notice that in most cases these types of lobes are dropped on the race stock skis - ie Fischer, and dont try to tell me that Fischer makes bad race skis. Skiing on Atomics and claiming that all other ski companies make out of date crappy skis must be bliss... after all that is what ignorance is right? I pray for the day that i can get ahold of a true WC Atomic SL or GS ski and find out what is really under those little lumps, because im willing to bet that it is a laminate ski in disguise, with the beta offering only stiffness and dampening.

Later

GREG
Excuse me, but you were the one claiming the virtues of only vertical sidewall sandwich construction skis. I was merely responding to your "Narrow Minded and misinformed opinion". Many manufacturers make many great skis in many different configurations. To each their own!!!

[ January 29, 2004, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Atomicman ]
post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by Atomicman:
Excuse me, but you were the one claiming the virtues of only vertical sidewall sandwich construction skis. I was merely responding to your "Narrow Minded and misinformed opinion".[/QB]
Hey now. Play nice before AC has to stop by and send you guys to your rooms without any lunch. [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #16 of 26
I don't ski on Atomic race skis but I can say that my 03/04 R11's skis are very stiff torsionally as were the other Atomics I demoed last year. In fact that is one of the major reasons why I chose to switch to Atomics.

I agree that some consumer Volkl models have shitty construction.
post #17 of 26
First let me say that I don't ski on Atomics - nor have I test-driven them.

From the point of view of statics - and those who know mechanics better than me PLEASE correct me if I am wrong - the beta structure on top kind of makes sense as far as increasing the lateral stiffness. (At least more so than the golfball pox in the top sheet)

What happens is each of the lobes serves as a pre-loaded structure to take the load off the other and off whatever is hidden under the top sheet (kind of like the trusses in the Eiffel Tower). It has a load distribution such that its peak is at the top of the dome and it goes down to zero (or near-zero) at the bottom (near the centerline). Then the centerline of the ski doesn't really matter, as when you are twisting the ski, the centerline is the one that stays unstressed, and the other lobe opposes the ski's tendency to twist by distributing the load in a similar manner. The forces near the centerline are such that they are in the opposite directions in projection on the ski and downward in projection on the axis perpendicular to the ski.

As a matter of fact, Elan HCX Hyper and DualX have a similar structure on their topsheets.

[ January 29, 2004, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: AlexG ]
post #18 of 26
Well im waiting for my sandwich construction snowblades! Anyone???
post #19 of 26
Um... actually i have played with the HCX, Dual X, GSX, SLX, and RCG Ti. Those lobes take no load and are for dampening only. If you have ever chopped an elan in half you see that they sit on top of the titanium top sheet. The stock race skis dont have this though. According to the rep they are purely cosmetic and dont really do anything - accept on the RCG ti, on which they are MUCH bigger and integrated into a 4mm riser on top of the ski.

From a longitudinal stiffness standpoint Beta is brilliant. It allows for the ski to have more snap to it because of the design of the lobes - they dont like to bend. Its like taking a paper towel tube, cutting it in half length-wise, and trying to bend it. It will buckle in the center before it will bend into an arc. This is why Atomics are usually very stiff, and have a lot of pop. Since the Beta lobes are flatter on the WC skis, im suggesting that they are most likely mounted on top of, or integrated into, a laminate ski underneath the topsheets. VIST actually will make WC plates to fit this profile, and as far as i know, VIST builds plates for atomic, so most likely the WC plates have this profile as well. Beta isnt a bad construction, but by itself it feels chattery, light weight, and not terribly solid. Coupled with a few layers of laminates underneath those lobes, which im nearly certain this is what the WC skis are, the skis probably have the best of both worlds... meaning a solid feel of a laminate and the pop and livliness of the beta lobes. I would like you to note that this only applies to the WC race boards, not to the skis that Atomic markets to consumers - which brings me back to my original post, and precisely why i dont ski on atomic skis.

My post was in no way narrow minded. I have probably been on more race stock boards in the last few seasons than most people, and can often comment on each one recalling specific instances of when and how i skied on it. I'm just relaying the common theme from all of the skis that i have skied on. There are exceptions to the rule, but there arent many. I don't consider non-race stock Atomics to be an exception. I have not skied on one race ski that wasnt a laminate, that could outperform a laminate race ski, the SL:11 included. It was a great ski, but it did not have the same feel as other laminate skis. The same goes for the Dynastar OmeGlass 64 Slalom ski (retail)... to put it blatantly - it had no balls in the course - no offense Dynastar fans.

Anyhow, i keep getting caught up in these controversial threads, so in order to keep peace im going to go skiing (practice actually).

Later

GREG

obtw, when i say played with, i mean i have seen them cut in half in every way imaginable, so i know what is inside. Anyone want to donate their Atomics?

[ January 29, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: HeluvaSkier ]
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by HeluvaSkier:
Um... actually i have played with the HCX, Dual X, GSX, SLX, and RCG Ti. Those lobes take no load and are for dampening only. If you have ever chopped an elan in half you see that they sit on top of the titanium top sheet. The stock race skis dont have this though. According to the rep they are purely cosmetic and dont really do anything - accept on the RCG ti, on which they are MUCH bigger and integrated into a 4mm riser on top of the ski.

From a longitudinal stiffness standpoint Beta is brilliant. It allows for the ski to have more snap to it because of the design of the lobes - they dont like to bend. Its like taking a paper towel tube, cutting it in half length-wise, and trying to bend it. It will buckle in the center before it will bend into an arc. This is why Atomics are usually very stiff, and have a lot of pop. Since the Beta lobes are flatter on the WC skis, im suggesting that they are most likely mounted on top of, or integrated into, a laminate ski underneath the topsheets. VIST actually will make WC plates to fit this profile, and as far as i know, VIST builds plates for atomic, so most likely the WC plates have this profile as well. Beta isnt a bad construction, but by itself it feels chattery, light weight, and not terribly solid. Coupled with a few layers of laminates underneath those lobes, which im nearly certain this is what the WC skis are, the skis probably have the best of both worlds... meaning a solid feel of a laminate and the pop and livliness of the beta lobes. I would like you to note that this only applies to the WC race boards, not to the skis that Atomic markets to consumers - which brings me back to my original post, and precisely why i dont ski on atomic skis.

My post was in no way narrow minded. I have probably been on more race stock boards in the last few seasons than most people, and can often comment on each one recalling specific instances of when and how i skied on it. I'm just relaying the common theme from all of the skis that i have skied on. There are exceptions to the rule, but there arent many. I don't consider non-race stock Atomics to be an exception. I have not skied on one race ski that wasnt a laminate, that could outperform a laminate race ski, the SL:11 included. It was a great ski, but it did not have the same feel as other laminate skis. The same goes for the Dynastar OmeGlass 64 Slalom ski (retail)... to put it blatantly - it had no balls in the course - no offense Dynastar fans.

Anyhow, i keep getting caught up in these controversial threads, so in order to keep peace im going to go skiing (practice actually).

Later

GREG

obtw, when i say played with, i mean i have seen them cut in half in every way imaginable, so i know what is inside. Anyone want to donate their Atomics?
NOPE!
post #21 of 26
Greg - I am not saying that Atomics are good - or bad, FWIW - but I am not sure that the lobes on Elans don't take any load if they are for dampening. If they work for dampening, it means they take a huge load. Actually, my brother-in-law's race stock SLXs have those lobes. And you don't need that much beef under the lobes - it can be hollow inside like an airplane wing, as long as the top material will not break, because most of the twisting and bending load on a rod is distributed on its outside - which is exactly why it is so hard to bend the paper-towel tube cut in half lengthwise. Once again, all said is not to praise, nor to denigrate, the performance of Atomics or other race stock skis; just an observation.
post #22 of 26
This is hilarious.
There is ONE reason that WC skis are sandwich. They are easy to make, and easy to change. Throughout the season, the race room is always tweaking the shape and flex of the skis to see what works best.
Can a cap ski be made with the same performance of a sandwich? Yes. By making a whole new mold. This is expensive and time consuming, and frankly, the racers don't care what they look like, so why do it?
post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by U.P. Racer:
This is hilarious.
There is ONE reason that WC skis are sandwich. They are easy to make, and easy to change. Throughout the season, the race room is always tweaking the shape and flex of the skis to see what works best.
Can a cap ski be made with the same performance of a sandwich? Yes. By making a whole new mold. This is expensive and time consuming, and frankly, the racers don't care what they look like, so why do it?
Thanks U.P. Your a A beam of light in a dark dungeon! Greg is full of bunk on this one!
post #24 of 26
No problem.
Don't get me wrong..... Volkl race skis ARE better than Atomic, but it Isn't because of the sandwich construction.
post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by U.P. Racer:
No problem.
Don't get me wrong..... Volkl race skis ARE better than Atomic, but it Isn't because of the sandwich construction.
Are Not!
post #26 of 26
Anyone want to buy some Atomic 9.20's?
PS. Volkls are better.
Later
GREG
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