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Need for custom insoles - Page 2

post #31 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

In the spirit of "question everything" I have been experimenting a bit with and without custom insoles the last week or so.

 

At least in Sweden it is more or less a given that high end skiers and generally everyone buying high end boots always get custom insole molded after the feet. I have several different insoles with varying stiffness in the support. 

 

On the off season I run a lot and I have been using barefoot shoes for almost ten years. No support whatsoever and very thin.

My feet are strong and neutral, so why do I need a custom insole?

 

So far my experiences are:

 

I cannot feel a huge performance difference between no soles and stiff soles. I have no video so I cannot say for sure that I don't have an alignment problem without the insoles, like A-frame or so, but I don't think so.

 

I feel that the fore-aft balance is more responsive without arched soles. The pressure can be moved between the metatarsels and the heel much quicker when the feet are not "disturbed" by the arch supports.

 

The foot is wider without the insoles, which makes it a bit more painful against the fifth metatarsel. 

 

With insoles I get some minor pain under the arch because of the small muscles being pressed against the support. This does not happen without them.

 

It feels like whole foot balance is easier without arch support.

 

Anyone else having any experiences or thoughts?

 

I've had a lot of custom insoles made for me over the years and pretty much felt the whole concept to be highly overrated. Many times I felt it was just a way for the shops to earn more money and also a lack of knowledge from the shops side. For me the insole had become almost only a matter of fit and comfort. Alignment issues best attended to and fixed by shimming the base of the boot to desired angle and tilting the shaft as desired. I have a very good and rigid foot with a balanced footprint on a sensor pad so I don't need any special alignment or fixes. However, as mentioned by many here before it's very individual.

 

This year I had my boot fitter talk me into trying a new custom made insole concept. The moulding was done to a very thin top layer with a very delicate and articulated outcome compared to many done to me before. He then foamed underneath and shaped it for desired alignment and fit. At the arch he taped a strip of window insulation to give some room for the "flexor hallucis longus tendon", I think, that stretches and presses against the arch support if footbed is made too high and rigid causing the foot to hurt and dysfunction. I've skied with it since week 8 and it feels great. It makes for slightly less volume in my boot so it can be a bit tricky to get used to at the beginning of the season. I need to take a liner that gives me more room if that is going to be a problem.

 

I would recommend people to experiment. I'm now skiing with a Dalbello shell, a Head foam liner, a Atomic tongue, a booster strap and a custom insole.

post #32 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 
Quote:
 not understand this talk about needing to feel the feet roll ("articulate"?) from side to side, with ankle bones contacting sides of the boot.  My ankle bones scream when they contact the sides of the boot

The bone should not contact the boot cuff.  Some have the cuff pressed out so they can move their ankles without the contact.  This was mentioned in the article Atomicman posted.

 

This page from the Green Mountain Orthotics Lab shows the need for posted footbeds for some skiers:  http://gmolfoot.com/gmolfootbeds.htm

 

My ankles pronate.  A lot.  If I stand with both feet pointing straight ahead and flex my knees, my knees come together.  If I stand so my knees flex straight ahead, I'm standing duck footed.  If I stand on my posted footbeds (or the equivalent orthotics made by my podiatrist), my feet are straight ahead and my knees flex straight ahead.  That's me.  You're different.  Everyone's needs must be evaluated individually.

Sounds like my feet/legs.

post #33 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Sounds like my feet/legs.

 

The compensation would be to tilt the insoles to invert your feet inside the boot in order for the knee to flex straight ahead. This is what was done to my insoles this year. It also resulted in my canting being a bit too aggressive but I was never canted under the boot to more than 0.5 deg anyway so I think I'm set up pretty well for general purposes. For very fast GS and SG I maybe need to put shims under the little toe edge side of the binding.

 

To my experience articulating my ankle inside the boot to roll the feet from side to side is more of a "feeling" that causes pressure than an actual "movement" that causes displacement. With liners that were not so snug I experienced a lot of pain from the foot movements inside the boot. Maybe the feet would have gotten used to this kind of wear and tear over time. Boots tend to be uncomfortable at the beginning of the season and later fitting better.

post #34 of 67
"The bone should not contact the boot cuff. Some have the cuff pressed out so they can move their ankles without the contact. This was mentioned in the article Atomicman posted."

SSG You have totally misinterpreted the article!

They are saying they make MORE room in the ankle and Navicular area, not less.

And your ankle already presses on your boot. It is not supposed to be painfull, of course!

The ankle area just needs to be the correct shape and lined up with your ankle.

They are saying they make more room on the medial side in order for the ankle to articulate not get locked in place!

Edited by Atomicman - 4/20/17 at 9:51am
post #35 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Sounds like my feet/legs.

 

Ever wondered how much of that (not yours specifically but those type of symptoms in general) might conceivably be altered by off-season cross training?

post #36 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

"The bone should not contact the boot cuff. Some have the cuff pressed out so they can move their ankles without the contact. This was mentioned in the article Atomicman posted."

SSG You have totally misinterpreted the article!

They are saying they make MORE room in the ankle and Navicular area, not less.

And your ankle already presses on your boot. It is not supposed to be painfull, of course!

The ankle area just needs to be the correct shape and lined up with your ankle.

They are saying they make more room on the medial side in order for the ankle to articulate not get locked in place!

 

Not sure why these statements would be contradicting :dunno

post #37 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Not sure why these statements would be contradicting :dunno

Because you are not moving your ankle without contact.  You are moving your ankle with contact, just not contact that restricts the ankle.  

 

 

SSG's Comment :  "The bone should not contact the boot cuff. "

 

I quote from the article

 

They increase the ability of the foot and ankle to produce edging power and the ability of the ankle to access the boot wall through medial wall and boot board modifications. These are the same movements of the ankle we try to provide for all our footbed and alignment customers.
The functional articulation of the ankle and foot in the boot provides and enhances the skier's ability to make refined, fine-tuning movements to adjust the ski edge angle on the snow. If this articulation is not available, movements are made at the hip using the adductor muscles to lever the ski on edge.

post #38 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Because you are not moving your ankle without contact.  You are moving your ankle with contact, just not contact that restricts the ankle.  

 

 

SSG's Comment :  "The bone should not contact the boot cuff. "

 

I quote from the article

 

They increase the ability of the foot and ankle to produce edging power and the ability of the ankle to access the boot wall through medial wall and boot board modifications. These are the same movements of the ankle we try to provide for all our footbed and alignment customers.
The functional articulation of the ankle and foot in the boot provides and enhances the skier's ability to make refined, fine-tuning movements to adjust the ski edge angle on the snow. If this articulation is not available, movements are made at the hip using the adductor muscles to lever the ski on edge.

 

Not sure about this. Maybe there is a difference between "boot cuff" and "boot cuff shell". The boot is snug around the ankle but if the ankle or any foot bones continuously press or just momentarily touch the hard plastic outside shell you will feel pain. There is a huge difference between true racing liners and the ones you can find in high end performance boots rating up to 130 in flex. The thinner the liner is the closer you get your feet to the hard plastic of the boot that transmits the power to the skis edge for improved control and power but requires more outside shell modification for perfect fit. Like the Fischer Vacuum system. I've had my boots stretched around the ankle in a bunch of places to get rid of direct contact with the outside shell. Now I can articulate the ankle even though there is not a lot of room for movement. Especially with the racing hard foam liner.

 

Still my theory of the twisting movement of the ankle is what counts. People talk about ankle tipping. Its really "twisting". And you need to allow the lower leg to twist and rotate at the ankle in order to invert or evert the ankle. When you turn right you should twist your foot at the ankle to the left so that your toes point to the left, towards the outside of the turn. This will reduce the actual movement of the ankle tipping inside the boot and let the boot, leg and the ski tip together with the foot. IMHO anyway.

post #39 of 67

If you guys are wondering why I'm posting without really contributing its because I'm trying to brake the 8000 posting barrier this season :bs:

post #40 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Not sure about this. Maybe there is a difference between "boot cuff" and "boot cuff shell". The boot is snug around the ankle but if the ankle or any foot bones continuously press or just momentarily touch the hard plastic outside shell you will feel pain. There is a huge difference between true racing liners and the ones you can find in high end performance boots rating up to 130 in flex. The thinner the liner is the closer you get your feet to the hard plastic of the boot that transmits the power to the skis edge for improved control and power but requires more outside shell modification for perfect fit. Like the Fischer Vacuum system. I've had my boots stretched around the ankle in a bunch of places to get rid of direct contact with the outside shell. Now I can articulate the ankle even though there is not a lot of room for movement. Especially with the racing hard foam liner.

 

Still my theory of the twisting movement of the ankle is what counts. People talk about ankle tipping. Its really "twisting". And you need to allow the lower leg to twist and rotate at the ankle in order to invert or evert the ankle. When you turn right you should twist your foot at the ankle to the left so that your toes point to the left, towards the outside of the turn. This will reduce the actual movement of the ankle tipping inside the boot and let the boot, leg and the ski tip together with the foot. IMHO anyway.

you ankle is NEVER going to contact the hard plastic shell directly .... the liner is there between your ankle and the shell.   And as I said before,  it is the shape of the ankle pocket  that counts and that it is lined up with your ankle.  And I believe your toes only point away from the direction of the turn by the degrees of offset built into the boot. I don't believe you can point just your toes or forefoot away from the direction of the turn. Like the Fischer duck footed boot, or less so, most boots that have about 3 degrees of offset.  (one of the Fisher boots a few years back also moved the heel pocket medially as well as the fore foot laterally).

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong.....But your ankle CAN'T twist!   I ski from my feet, not my ankle, not to say my ankle isn't important and is involved (more about fore/aft balance, I believe) 

I roll my foot up (inside foot, big toe edge up, outside foot LTE up and then room in the navicular area and thenature of a flexible non-posted footbed let me adjust edge pressure.  

 

Where you are confused is the ankle is primarily the end of the tibia on the medial side and the fibula laterally (which I fractured down in my boot in 1995 running Gs on a pair 207 Volkl P10 RS Supers. Caught a tip on a gate in a practice course. It was 0 Degress F outside and I didn't have my boots tight enough) )So the moral of the story is you can't twist your tibia or fibula , but you can invert and evert your ankle and dorsiflex it and plantarflex it. But ya can't twist it....at least without damage to ligaments and tendons.  I think more about pronanting and supinating my foot as I ski. 

 

 

Isn't it called "Rolling up on Edge"  not "Twisting" up on edge.  Twisting movement to me instantly depicts rotary in my mind.   


Edited by Atomicman - 4/23/17 at 5:07pm
post #41 of 67
When the outside foot pronates inside the boot the leg (to include the tibia) rotates internally relative to the direction the foot is pointing---or adducts. So leg rotates both proximally at the hip, and distally at the ankle....even if the movement is relatively small, it still happens. When the foot is unloaded (like in transition), then it is the foot that counter-steers in relation to where the knee is pointing, as the foot is either inverting or everting.

In other words, there is some small rotation separation which occurs around the stj, if there wasn't, and the ankle was completely locked, the rotation at the hip would rotate the foot into the direction of the turn which would be more akin to traditional steering. This is why the ability to pronate some in the boot is critical--to bring it back to Jamt's op....

zenny
post #42 of 67

I also believe that a small amount of pronation is useful.  I can tell you that when I am skiing very hard snow (lets call that eastern scraped off boiler plate)  if I allow my ankle to pronate slightly, I believe that I create  a platform angle that is 90 degrees or less and balancing over the outside foot I have grip on the very hard snow.   I know a bootfitter/pedorthist  who made a pair of orthotics for one of the truly great WC skiers.   During a personal conversation with this bootfitter he mentioned that this skier did not like the orthotics.  His complaint was that he could not pronate enough.  My advice is to experiment.   It's a nuisance to do so.  Luckily for me I have always had a great side to compare my bad side to for comparison.   If both my sides were equally bad, my skiing would suffer and I would have no idea why.   "The ankle is a the  hinge joint.  The axis of this joint is oblique and motion occurring at this joint  is dorsi and plantar flexion.   Pronation and Supination are movements which occur at the subtalar and talocalcaneonavicular joints.  Supination is rotation of the foot in which the sole of the foot moves in a medial direction and pronation is rotation in which the sole of the foot moves in a lateral direction.  The transverse tarsal joints are formed by the articulations of  the talus with the navicular and the calcaneous with the cuboid.   Adduction and abduction of the forefoot are the movements permitted by the tranverse tarsal joints, adduction being movement of the forefoot in a medial direction and abduction in a lateral direction.   Inversion is a combination of supination and forefoot adduction.   Eversion is a combination of pronation and forefoot abduction."  Muscles-Testing and Function  Kendall,Kendall,Wadsworth

post #43 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

When the outside foot pronates inside the boot the leg (to include the tibia) rotates internally relative to the direction the foot is pointing---or adducts. So leg rotates both proximally at the hip, and distally at the ankle....even if the movement is relatively small, it still happens. When the foot is unloaded (like in transition), then it is the foot that counter-steers in relation to where the knee is pointing, as the foot is either inverting or everting.

In other words, there is some small rotation separation which occurs around the stj, if there wasn't, and the ankle was completely locked, the rotation at the hip would rotate the foot into the direction of the turn which would be more akin to traditional steering. This is why the ability to pronate some in the boot is critical--to bring it back to Jamt's op....

zenny

 

Bingo!

post #44 of 67

Here is the video I made last year:

 

post #45 of 67

If anyone is serious about  trying to understand ankle and foot function you can buy a lifesize plastic model of the ankle and foot.  Anatomical Products Company  has these for sale for $100.    Having a lifesize anatomically correct model to study certainly helps with the understanding.   YM

post #46 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

I also believe that a small amount of pronation is useful.  I can tell you that when I am skiing very hard snow (lets call that eastern scraped off boiler plate)  if I allow my ankle to pronate slightly, I believe that I create  a platform angle that is 90 degrees or less and balancing over the outside foot I have grip on the very hard snow.   I know a bootfitter/pedorthist  who made a pair of orthotics for one of the truly great WC skiers.   During a personal conversation with this bootfitter he mentioned that this skier did not like the orthotics.  His complaint was that he could not pronate enough.  My advice is to experiment.   It's a nuisance to do so.  Luckily for me I have always had a great side to compare my bad side to for comparison.   If both my sides were equally bad, my skiing would suffer and I would have no idea why.   "The ankle is a the  hinge joint.  The axis of this joint is oblique and motion occurring at this joint  is dorsi and plantar flexion.   Pronation and Supination are movements which occur at the subtalar and talocalcaneonavicular joints.  Supination is rotation of the foot in which the sole of the foot moves in a medial direction and pronation is rotation in which the sole of the foot moves in a lateral direction.  The transverse tarsal joints are formed by the articulations of  the talus with the navicular and the calcaneous with the cuboid.   Adduction and abduction of the forefoot are the movements permitted by the tranverse tarsal joints, adduction being movement of the forefoot in a medial direction and abduction in a lateral direction.   Inversion is a combination of supination and forefoot adduction.   Eversion is a combination of pronation and forefoot abduction."  Muscles-Testing and Function  Kendall,Kendall,Wadsworth

Don't you have supination and pronation backwards in regard to lateral and medial.

 

Pronation your foot collapses to the medial side, Supination you roll to the lateral side?  

 

I looked at animation and video. 

 

Twisting if any seems to be an  extremely minor ankle movement. 


Edited by Atomicman - 4/23/17 at 12:58pm
post #47 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Don't you have supination and pronation backwards in regard to lateral and medial.

Pronation your foot collapses to the medial side, Supination you roll to the lateral side?  

I looked at animation and video. 



Twisting if any seems to be an  extremely minor ankle movement. 

You're both saying the same thing just in different manners.

In pronation, the arch collapses & the sole move laterally. In supination the arch enhances & sole moves inward toward the body relation to the anatomic neutral position.

My two cents: if you're in a really high performance boot, you don't really have a lot of space for a big clunky insole that restricts fine movements of intrinsic musculature .

Ymmv
post #48 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post


You're both saying the same thing just in different manners.

In pronation, the arch collapses & the sole move laterally. In supination the arch enhances & sole moves inward toward the body relation to the anatomic neutral position.

My two cents: if you're in a really high performance boot, you don't really have a lot of space for a big clunky insole that restricts fine movements of intrinsic musculature .

Ymmv

Oh well, seems backwards to me. :dunno  Lateral is to the outside of the body medial is to the inside.  

post #49 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Don't you have supination and pronation backwards in regard to lateral and medial.

 

Pronation your foot collapses to the medial side, Supination you roll to the lateral side?  

 

I looked at animation and video. 

 

Twisting if any seems to be an  extremely minor ankle movement. 

Maybe Kendall Kendall and Wadsworth have it backwards,  but then again, they used to be considered one on the authorities on muscle testing and function within the medical community.  I quoted directly from the  text.    Read the description carefully again. 

post #50 of 67
No it's not backwards. While pronating, the arch collapses and the ankle rolls medialy while at the same time the SOLE of the foot will tend to want to turn (evert) laterally...and vice-versa for supination. Both are true at the same time, sorta like a paradox :-D

zenny
post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

No it's not backwards. While pronating, the arch collapses and the ankle rolls medialy while at the same time the SOLE of the foot will tend to want to turn (evert) laterally...and vice-versa for supination. Both are true at the same time, sorta like a paradox :-D

zenny

This makes more sense. To me anyway.


Edited by Atomicman - 4/23/17 at 5:04pm
post #52 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

While pronating, the arch collapses and the ankle rolls medialy while at the same time the SOLE of the foot will tend to want to turn (evert) laterally...and vice-versa for supination. Both are true at the same time, sorta like a paradox :-D

 

And they call that paradox...

 

 

post #53 of 67

You know counter steering doesn't work......

 

if  not for GRAVITY.

 

Like in snow skiing,  Gravity is not just a good idea,  IT"S THE LAW!  ;-)

post #54 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

While pronating, the arch collapses and the ankle rolls medialy while at the same time the SOLE of the foot will tend to want to turn (evert) laterally...and vice-versa for supination. Both are true at the same time, sorta like a paradox :-D

 

And they call that paradox...

 

 


Nice video.  The no bull-sh** bike does prove counter steering works, and body English has only a secondary effect, but it explains nothing.

 

The truth is that pushing the left bar forward steers the front wheel to the right, which moves the bottom of the bike (where the rubber meets the road) to the right, and  puts the bike into a left lean which makes it turn left (as you naturally relent and turn back to stay in balance - unless you are one of those stubborn folk who do exactly what you're told, in which case you keep pushing the left bar forward until you fall on the left side of the bike).

 

So yes leaning left makes the bike turn left, but how do you put the bike into a left lean?  Answer for anything above walking speed is counter steering.

 

Kind of like skiing; tip skis left to go left, but how do you tip the skis and stay in balance?

post #55 of 67

As they seem to be being discussed as different issues, is there a difference between the foot pronating and the ankle pronating. I guess I never paid it too much attention, but always believed that my ankle pronated because the foot did first, and if the foot was corrected with an orthodic/footbed, then the ankle would also be fixed?

post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


Nice video.  The no bull-sh** bike does prove counter steering works, and body English has only a secondary effect, but it explains nothing.

 

The truth is that pushing the left bar forward steers the front wheel to the right, which moves the bottom of the bike (where the rubber meets the road) to the right, and  puts the bike into a left lean which makes it turn left (as you naturally relent and turn back to stay in balance - unless you are one of those stubborn folk who do exactly what you're told, in which case you keep pushing the left bar forward until you fall on the left side of the bike).

 

So yes leaning left makes the bike turn left, but how do you put the bike into a left lean?  Answer for anything above walking speed is counter steering.

 

Kind of like skiing; tip skis left to go left, but how do you tip the skis and stay in balance?

You bring out the essence of the analogy!

 

The radius of the motorbike tires function EXACTLY in the same manner as does a bent snow ski.  The tip craving (carving?) to add to the turning, As long as it is kept tipped!

 

Stand on the floor and make turning motions with your feet legs and hips.  (I'm feeling this right down to the "insoles"! ;-)   This is Exactly the way pressing on the handle bars works!  In fact,  there IS  even the "cross over or cross under sensation"   depending on the rider's participation.  Heck,  I've had the front end leave the pavement in the violence of abrupt input!  Something all skiers should experience!

 

How to stay in balance?  Balance the forces. And first year ME could do it with a few vectors.  

 

  When you run out of GRIP,  that's the end. 

 

A low side, a stall, a slide, Wipe out!

If you are not at the edge,  you are taking up too much space.

post #57 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Oh well, seems backwards to me. :dunno  Lateral is to the outside of the body medial is to the inside.  

I think its a matter of frame of reference. If you stand on the foot and pronate the foot will move medially in reference to the floor, but laterally in reference to the tibia. If you lift the foot and only move the foot the floor and tibia will be the same frame of reference and the foot will move laterally.

post #58 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

As they seem to be being discussed as different issues, is there a difference between the foot pronating and the ankle pronating. I guess I never paid it too much attention, but always believed that my ankle pronated because the foot did first, and if the foot was corrected with an orthodic/footbed, then the ankle would also be fixed?

Pronation occurs in the subtalar and talocalcanealnavicular joint not the "ankle joint"   The ankle only dorsi flexes and plantar flexes.    There is the ankle/ rear foot and forefoot.  Different movements occur in each part of the lower extremity.   Don't confuse one for the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

.   "The ankle is a the  hinge joint.  The axis of this joint is oblique and motion occurring at this joint  is dorsi and plantar flexion.   Pronation and Supination are movements which occur at the subtalar and talocalcaneonavicular joints.  Supination is rotation of the foot in which the sole of the foot moves in a medial direction and pronation is rotation in which the sole of the foot moves in a lateral direction.  The transverse tarsal joints are formed by the articulations of  the talus with the navicular and the calcaneous with the cuboid.   Adduction and abduction of the forefoot are the movements permitted by the tranverse tarsal joints, adduction being movement of the forefoot in a medial direction and abduction in a lateral direction.   Inversion is a combination of supination and forefoot adduction.   Eversion is a combination of pronation and forefoot abduction."  Muscles-Testing and Function  Kendall,Kendall,Wadsworth

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

If anyone is serious about  trying to understand ankle and foot function you can buy a lifesize plastic model of the ankle and foot.  Anatomical Products Company  has these for sale for $100.    Having a lifesize anatomically correct model to study certainly helps with the understanding.   YM

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

I think its a matter of frame of reference. If you stand on the foot and pronate the foot will move medially in reference to the floor, but laterally in reference to the tibia. If you lift the foot and only move the foot the floor and tibia will be the same frame of reference and the foot will move laterally.

But human motion is always defined in reference to anatomical position.  To do otherwise will confuse the matter.  YM

post #59 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

 

 

 

But human motion is always defined in reference to anatomical position.  To do otherwise will confuse the matter.  YM

Sure, but you are not skiing around in standard anatomical position, so sometimes it makes more sense to use other body parts, ski or even snow surface as reference.

post #60 of 67

You are right, you do not ski in anatomical position but if you want to use terms that have there foundation in anatomy and kinesiology then it might be best to use the terms as they have been defined by the experts who study human anatomy and kinesiology.   If you do not then I have no idea what you are talking about.    Are you suggesting that everyone just uses any definition they wish?    Flexing the wrist is still flexing the wrist even if you are standing on your head with your arms behind your back.   YM

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