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Ski carving how to improve

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

Hi at all,

 

What is in your opinion my level of skiing?

 

too much vertical motion?

 

low pressure on the out side ski?

 

further shifting the upper body with the lower part of the body?

 

more bring the upper part of the body toward the ski slope?

 

Thx in advance

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yymw-czWMg     (medium slope)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zbbyrKY25E        (steep/medium slope)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QEH3f6EJpM      (ski carving on hard pack cannon snow)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODBq5Myt8vY      (short turn in 69% slope)

 

 

Ski gear Rossignol Hero Master M18-M21

 

Sorry for bad English

post #2 of 16

Let me start by saying that you are a strong skier.  There is a lot of good stuff happening in your skiing.  Here are a few thoughts based on what I see.

 

Up movement.  Yes, there is a bit of an up movement happening as you move across the skis.  Instead of trying to extend and push your upper body into the turn, focus on flexing and releasing the outside ski at the end of the turn.  Your goal is to evenly exchange length between legs.  As the old outside ski gets shorter, the other leg should be getting longer.

 

You ask about bringing the upper body closer to the ski slope.  You also ask about "shifting" the upper body.  I get the impression from these questions, and what I see happening in your skiing that you are trying to generate your turns by moving to the inside.  Instead, I would suggest thinking about letting your skis travel around the arc to the outside.  It is far more efficient to let your feet move rather than throwing around your upper body.  

 

There is one more thing I noticed, especially in your short turns, that I think will help you greatly, and I believe is related to the other things I've mentioned.  In the videos, you are "floating" past the top half of your turns.  If you watch the short turns video, you can see that there is no engagement with the snow until the skis are across the fall line.  Even in the other videos, there is very little engagement at the top of the turn.  Part of it is a result of your up movement.  At the top of the up movement, there is no weight on your skis, and you end up pivoting through the top of your turns.    

 

If I were you, I would find some easy groomed terrain, and practice Railroad Tracks.  Start out slow standing over your feet, and focus on tipping your skis from the ankles only.  As the skis tip on edge, the sidecut will do its thing and cause some gentle turning to happen.  As you gain comfort, let your speed build a little bit, and continue to tip the skis further onto edge, starting with the ankles, then by tipping the knees as well.  Be patient and let the skis move under you rather than moving your upper body across the skis. 

 

At low speeds, attempting to move your body to the inside of the turn won't work.  You will fall over.  So in order to be successful, you need to be tipping from the ground up.  

 

As for the top of the turn, it is impossible to do Railroad Tracks without engaging the top of the turn.  Make sure you are actually doing good Railroad Tracks.  Look at your tracks in the snow.  They should leave very fine, but well defined arcs in the snow.  To help you focus on the top of the turn, pay attention to what is happening immediately before, during, and after the transition.  Before, you will be on the two uphill edges.  During, your skis will be flat, which means all 4 edges are touching the snow.  After, you will be on the two downhill edges as the skis start to turn towards the fall line.  Think to yourself, 2, 4, 2 as you pass through the transition.  

 

With regard to the up move, if you focus on tipping from the ground up, and engaging the skis at the top of the turn, I suspect you will find the up movement disappears.  

post #3 of 16

What level?
In ski instructor levels I would say between level 3 and 4. 

If I had to make this skiing into my preferred skiing I would:
- Add more inside leg flexion
- Add more upper body discipline 
- No more swinging and dropping with the arms
- Different turn shape and timing (less round and fluid, more z-shape and abrupt)
- Longer and more fluid transition

This is what I view as good skiing. I know lots of people disagree.

post #4 of 16

Not a bad MA TreeFitter. I would love to have the OP submit a video of him doing RR turns. Although he appears to be a capable skier,  I am always amazed at how many at his level have trouble with that. They most always seem to initiate with a rotary move in this drill.  Another one is the Wedge Sort radius turns on moderate terrain. The problem there is pushing out the rear instead of bending the front. 

post #5 of 16

Because we have always used vertical motion to lighten the skis for rotary twisting, the two motor patterns can, for some, become inextricably linked as one intuitively bodes the other. If he learns to put a "ceiling" on his vertical motion, he will find it difficult to add rotary to his skis. On the other side of the coin, if he refused to allow his skis to rotate out of the rail path, he would find/discover that his vertical input is unnecessary wasted movement. 

post #6 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

Because we have always used vertical motion to lighten the skis for rotary twisting, the two motor patterns can, for some, become inextricably linked as one intuitively bodes the other. If he learns to put a "ceiling" on his vertical motion, he will find it difficult to add rotary to his skis. On the other side of the coin, if he refused to allow his skis to rotate out of the rail path, he would find/discover that his vertical input is unnecessary wasted movement. 

Going to have to disagree with you a little bit here, Rich. We don't always have to come up to lighten the ski - look at a retraction turn and secondly, we don't have to lighten the ski to input rotary motion. I have been doing and coaching a lot of pivot slips lately and I find that too many folks try to do them standing tall where as I prefer to begin the pivot with a flexing of the ankles. As well, and because of the winter we have been having in Northern VT, I have been skiing a lot of soft and cut-up snow and I find it ski it much better when I do it from a flexed stance then I do from a tall stance.

post #7 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post
 

Hi at all,

 

What is in your opinion my level of skiing?

 

too much vertical motion?

 

low pressure on the out side ski?

 

further shifting the upper body with the lower part of the body?

 

more bring the upper part of the body toward the ski slope?

 

Thx in advance

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yymw-czWMg     (medium slope)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zbbyrKY25E        (steep/medium slope)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QEH3f6EJpM      (ski carving on hard pack cannon snow)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODBq5Myt8vY      (short turn in 69% slope)

 

 

Ski gear Rossignol Hero Master M18-M21

 

Sorry for bad English

 

Didn't read any of the previous comments so I might be repeating stuff. Looks darn good to me. There should be up-and-down movement so I don't see why this would be a problem for you. I liked the carved turns as much as the skidded short turns.

 

I sense a bit of park and ride in your carving turns. Maybe try to be a bit more dynamic and work a bit harder. If you are suspecting too much pressure on the inside ski then do javelin turns as a drill, picking up your inside ski early and balancing over the outside ski. At the end of the turn you should be pushing your outside arm down and keep it down all the way through edge change.

 

In your short turns you are maybe a bit too overturning. Try to stay in the fall line a bit longer.

post #8 of 16
Thread Starter 

Thx al lot I will translate in my language, I was very interested in the Norgh American opinion, and so I can read the school difference very interesting.

Thanks again.

ciao

post #9 of 16
Thread Starter 

Hi at all,

first of all sorry for my bad Enlish,

I opened this thread to understand the Italian ski school differences and North America; I understand that one of the critical points is the verticalization of Moviemento and the curve starts, different are the ways to remedy these defects, the most 'interesting if I translated well is that the main differences are in short turn in our forums in Italy we discuss a lot and we compare very different schools of thought.

It 'to improve and understand all your valuable suggestions
thank you guys

post #10 of 16
Thread Starter 

Hy,

is a little bit difficult translate this "not a bad Ma TreeFitter"

thanks again

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

Not a bad MA TreeFitter. I would love to have the OP submit a video of him doing RR turns. Although he appears to be a capable skier,  I am always amazed at how many at his level have trouble with that. They most always seem to initiate with a rotary move in this drill.  Another one is the Wedge Sort radius turns on moderate terrain. The problem there is pushing out the rear instead of bending the front. 

post #11 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post

Hi at all,
first of all sorry for my bad Enlish,
I opened this thread to understand the Italian ski school differences and North America; I understand that one of the critical points is the verticalization of Moviemento and the curve starts, different are the ways to remedy these defects, the most 'interesting if I translated well is that the main differences are in short turn in our forums in Italy we discuss a lot and we compare very different schools of thought.
It 'to improve and understand all your valuable suggestions

thank you guys

What is your experience with Italian ski school? What do they say about your skiing?
post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateteachski View Post
 

Going to have to disagree with you a little bit here, Rich. We don't always have to come up to lighten the ski - look at a retraction turn and secondly, we don't have to lighten the ski to input rotary motion. I have been doing and coaching a lot of pivot slips lately and I find that too many folks try to do them standing tall where as I prefer to begin the pivot with a flexing of the ankles. As well, and because of the winter we have been having in Northern VT, I have been skiing a lot of soft and cut-up snow and I find it ski it much better when I do it from a flexed stance then I do from a tall stance.

 

Those are very good points all of which I agree with. I am speaking more so of the developmental "attachment" some skiers have between rotary motion and vertical motion and the idea I am intending to convey is the ability/focus to separate them so they can be used independently. Motor patterns are often learned in "packages" of highly associated movements that, while helpful at times, can also require a "breakdown" of that package in order to move forward in development, something of which I believe is pat least partially the case in this skier's MA.. As a side note, even though a skier may be using effective retraction, it is still a vertical motion from the knees down that lightens the ski. I also know where you are coming from regarding the snow and terrain. I was a front four fanatic for three years in a row and catching them after each and every dump. That hill rocks.

post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post
 

Hy,

is a little bit difficult translate this "not a bad Ma TreeFitter"

thanks again

 

MA=Movement Analysis

post #14 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post
 

Hy,

is a little bit difficult translate this "not a bad Ma TreeFitter"

thanks again

 

MA=Movement Analysis


TreeFiter = one of the people posting here

Manawa likes what Tree Fiter said.

I would enjoy reading what your Italian trainers say that's different from what you're hearing here.

post #15 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post
 

Hy,

is a little bit difficult translate this "not a bad Ma TreeFitter"

thanks again

 

Manawa, Like LiquidFeet stated, "Not bad" is an English way of saying "good" and "MA" stands for "Movement Analysis"

 

Like LF, I would also like to understand your point of view.  The subject here is carving, and for that the ski needs to be put progressively on edge and bent front to back. This progression is governed by speed and time. 

 

Regards, 

post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateteachski View Post
 

Going to have to disagree with you a little bit here, Rich. We don't always have to come up to lighten the ski - look at a retraction turn and secondly, we don't have to lighten the ski to input rotary motion. I have been doing and coaching a lot of pivot slips lately and I find that too many folks try to do them standing tall where as I prefer to begin the pivot with a flexing of the ankles. As well, and because of the winter we have been having in Northern VT, I have been skiing a lot of soft and cut-up snow and I find it ski it much better when I do it from a flexed stance then I do from a tall stance.

 

Those are very good points all of which I agree with. I am speaking more so of the developmental "attachment" some skiers have between rotary motion and vertical motion and the idea I am intending to convey is the ability/focus to separate them so they can be used independently. Motor patterns are often learned in "packages" of highly associated movements that, while helpful at times, can also require a "breakdown" of that package in order to move forward in development, something of which I believe is pat least partially the case in this skier's MA.. As a side note, even though a skier may be using effective retraction, it is still a vertical motion from the knees down that lightens the ski. I also know where you are coming from regarding the snow and terrain. I was a front four fanatic for three years in a row and catching them after each and every dump. That hill rocks.


Yup.  Need to separate the vertical movement from the rotation.  Experimenting a week or two ago in a little training course, found that if I added some up down I could rail a carved arc-2-arc turn around a particular gate during the down becoming up phase, but if I didn't add the dynamics, I could not carve that tight a turn at that speed - not enough down force on the ski.  Yeah, I already knew this, but it was nice to experience it.

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