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Ski carving how to improve

post #1 of 137
Thread Starter 

Hi at all,

 

What is in your opinion my level of skiing?

 

too much vertical motion?

 

low pressure on the out side ski?

 

further shifting the upper body with the lower part of the body?

 

more bring the upper part of the body toward the ski slope?

 

Thx in advance

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yymw-czWMg     (medium slope)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zbbyrKY25E        (steep/medium slope)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QEH3f6EJpM      (ski carving on hard pack cannon snow)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODBq5Myt8vY      (short turn in 69% slope)

 

 

Ski gear Rossignol Hero Master M18-M21

 

Sorry for bad English

post #2 of 137

Let me start by saying that you are a strong skier.  There is a lot of good stuff happening in your skiing.  Here are a few thoughts based on what I see.

 

Up movement.  Yes, there is a bit of an up movement happening as you move across the skis.  Instead of trying to extend and push your upper body into the turn, focus on flexing and releasing the outside ski at the end of the turn.  Your goal is to evenly exchange length between legs.  As the old outside ski gets shorter, the other leg should be getting longer.

 

You ask about bringing the upper body closer to the ski slope.  You also ask about "shifting" the upper body.  I get the impression from these questions, and what I see happening in your skiing that you are trying to generate your turns by moving to the inside.  Instead, I would suggest thinking about letting your skis travel around the arc to the outside.  It is far more efficient to let your feet move rather than throwing around your upper body.  

 

There is one more thing I noticed, especially in your short turns, that I think will help you greatly, and I believe is related to the other things I've mentioned.  In the videos, you are "floating" past the top half of your turns.  If you watch the short turns video, you can see that there is no engagement with the snow until the skis are across the fall line.  Even in the other videos, there is very little engagement at the top of the turn.  Part of it is a result of your up movement.  At the top of the up movement, there is no weight on your skis, and you end up pivoting through the top of your turns.    

 

If I were you, I would find some easy groomed terrain, and practice Railroad Tracks.  Start out slow standing over your feet, and focus on tipping your skis from the ankles only.  As the skis tip on edge, the sidecut will do its thing and cause some gentle turning to happen.  As you gain comfort, let your speed build a little bit, and continue to tip the skis further onto edge, starting with the ankles, then by tipping the knees as well.  Be patient and let the skis move under you rather than moving your upper body across the skis. 

 

At low speeds, attempting to move your body to the inside of the turn won't work.  You will fall over.  So in order to be successful, you need to be tipping from the ground up.  

 

As for the top of the turn, it is impossible to do Railroad Tracks without engaging the top of the turn.  Make sure you are actually doing good Railroad Tracks.  Look at your tracks in the snow.  They should leave very fine, but well defined arcs in the snow.  To help you focus on the top of the turn, pay attention to what is happening immediately before, during, and after the transition.  Before, you will be on the two uphill edges.  During, your skis will be flat, which means all 4 edges are touching the snow.  After, you will be on the two downhill edges as the skis start to turn towards the fall line.  Think to yourself, 2, 4, 2 as you pass through the transition.  

 

With regard to the up move, if you focus on tipping from the ground up, and engaging the skis at the top of the turn, I suspect you will find the up movement disappears.  

post #3 of 137

What level?
In ski instructor levels I would say between level 3 and 4. 

If I had to make this skiing into my preferred skiing I would:
- Add more inside leg flexion
- Add more upper body discipline 
- No more swinging and dropping with the arms
- Different turn shape and timing (less round and fluid, more z-shape and abrupt)
- Longer and more fluid transition

This is what I view as good skiing. I know lots of people disagree.

post #4 of 137

Not a bad MA TreeFitter. I would love to have the OP submit a video of him doing RR turns. Although he appears to be a capable skier,  I am always amazed at how many at his level have trouble with that. They most always seem to initiate with a rotary move in this drill.  Another one is the Wedge Sort radius turns on moderate terrain. The problem there is pushing out the rear instead of bending the front. 

post #5 of 137

Because we have always used vertical motion to lighten the skis for rotary twisting, the two motor patterns can, for some, become inextricably linked as one intuitively bodes the other. If he learns to put a "ceiling" on his vertical motion, he will find it difficult to add rotary to his skis. On the other side of the coin, if he refused to allow his skis to rotate out of the rail path, he would find/discover that his vertical input is unnecessary wasted movement. 

post #6 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

Because we have always used vertical motion to lighten the skis for rotary twisting, the two motor patterns can, for some, become inextricably linked as one intuitively bodes the other. If he learns to put a "ceiling" on his vertical motion, he will find it difficult to add rotary to his skis. On the other side of the coin, if he refused to allow his skis to rotate out of the rail path, he would find/discover that his vertical input is unnecessary wasted movement. 

Going to have to disagree with you a little bit here, Rich. We don't always have to come up to lighten the ski - look at a retraction turn and secondly, we don't have to lighten the ski to input rotary motion. I have been doing and coaching a lot of pivot slips lately and I find that too many folks try to do them standing tall where as I prefer to begin the pivot with a flexing of the ankles. As well, and because of the winter we have been having in Northern VT, I have been skiing a lot of soft and cut-up snow and I find it ski it much better when I do it from a flexed stance then I do from a tall stance.

post #7 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post
 

Hi at all,

 

What is in your opinion my level of skiing?

 

too much vertical motion?

 

low pressure on the out side ski?

 

further shifting the upper body with the lower part of the body?

 

more bring the upper part of the body toward the ski slope?

 

Thx in advance

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yymw-czWMg     (medium slope)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zbbyrKY25E        (steep/medium slope)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QEH3f6EJpM      (ski carving on hard pack cannon snow)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODBq5Myt8vY      (short turn in 69% slope)

 

 

Ski gear Rossignol Hero Master M18-M21

 

Sorry for bad English

 

Didn't read any of the previous comments so I might be repeating stuff. Looks darn good to me. There should be up-and-down movement so I don't see why this would be a problem for you. I liked the carved turns as much as the skidded short turns.

 

I sense a bit of park and ride in your carving turns. Maybe try to be a bit more dynamic and work a bit harder. If you are suspecting too much pressure on the inside ski then do javelin turns as a drill, picking up your inside ski early and balancing over the outside ski. At the end of the turn you should be pushing your outside arm down and keep it down all the way through edge change.

 

In your short turns you are maybe a bit too overturning. Try to stay in the fall line a bit longer.

post #8 of 137
Thread Starter 

Thx al lot I will translate in my language, I was very interested in the Norgh American opinion, and so I can read the school difference very interesting.

Thanks again.

ciao

post #9 of 137
Thread Starter 

Hi at all,

first of all sorry for my bad Enlish,

I opened this thread to understand the Italian ski school differences and North America; I understand that one of the critical points is the verticalization of Moviemento and the curve starts, different are the ways to remedy these defects, the most 'interesting if I translated well is that the main differences are in short turn in our forums in Italy we discuss a lot and we compare very different schools of thought.

It 'to improve and understand all your valuable suggestions
thank you guys

post #10 of 137
Thread Starter 

Hy,

is a little bit difficult translate this "not a bad Ma TreeFitter"

thanks again

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

Not a bad MA TreeFitter. I would love to have the OP submit a video of him doing RR turns. Although he appears to be a capable skier,  I am always amazed at how many at his level have trouble with that. They most always seem to initiate with a rotary move in this drill.  Another one is the Wedge Sort radius turns on moderate terrain. The problem there is pushing out the rear instead of bending the front. 

post #11 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post

Hi at all,
first of all sorry for my bad Enlish,
I opened this thread to understand the Italian ski school differences and North America; I understand that one of the critical points is the verticalization of Moviemento and the curve starts, different are the ways to remedy these defects, the most 'interesting if I translated well is that the main differences are in short turn in our forums in Italy we discuss a lot and we compare very different schools of thought.
It 'to improve and understand all your valuable suggestions

thank you guys

What is your experience with Italian ski school? What do they say about your skiing?
post #12 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateteachski View Post
 

Going to have to disagree with you a little bit here, Rich. We don't always have to come up to lighten the ski - look at a retraction turn and secondly, we don't have to lighten the ski to input rotary motion. I have been doing and coaching a lot of pivot slips lately and I find that too many folks try to do them standing tall where as I prefer to begin the pivot with a flexing of the ankles. As well, and because of the winter we have been having in Northern VT, I have been skiing a lot of soft and cut-up snow and I find it ski it much better when I do it from a flexed stance then I do from a tall stance.

 

Those are very good points all of which I agree with. I am speaking more so of the developmental "attachment" some skiers have between rotary motion and vertical motion and the idea I am intending to convey is the ability/focus to separate them so they can be used independently. Motor patterns are often learned in "packages" of highly associated movements that, while helpful at times, can also require a "breakdown" of that package in order to move forward in development, something of which I believe is pat least partially the case in this skier's MA.. As a side note, even though a skier may be using effective retraction, it is still a vertical motion from the knees down that lightens the ski. I also know where you are coming from regarding the snow and terrain. I was a front four fanatic for three years in a row and catching them after each and every dump. That hill rocks.

post #13 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post
 

Hy,

is a little bit difficult translate this "not a bad Ma TreeFitter"

thanks again

 

MA=Movement Analysis

post #14 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post
 

Hy,

is a little bit difficult translate this "not a bad Ma TreeFitter"

thanks again

 

MA=Movement Analysis


TreeFiter = one of the people posting here

Manawa likes what Tree Fiter said.

I would enjoy reading what your Italian trainers say that's different from what you're hearing here.

post #15 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manawa View Post
 

Hy,

is a little bit difficult translate this "not a bad Ma TreeFitter"

thanks again

 

Manawa, Like LiquidFeet stated, "Not bad" is an English way of saying "good" and "MA" stands for "Movement Analysis"

 

Like LF, I would also like to understand your point of view.  The subject here is carving, and for that the ski needs to be put progressively on edge and bent front to back. This progression is governed by speed and time. 

 

Regards, 

post #16 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateteachski View Post
 

Going to have to disagree with you a little bit here, Rich. We don't always have to come up to lighten the ski - look at a retraction turn and secondly, we don't have to lighten the ski to input rotary motion. I have been doing and coaching a lot of pivot slips lately and I find that too many folks try to do them standing tall where as I prefer to begin the pivot with a flexing of the ankles. As well, and because of the winter we have been having in Northern VT, I have been skiing a lot of soft and cut-up snow and I find it ski it much better when I do it from a flexed stance then I do from a tall stance.

 

Those are very good points all of which I agree with. I am speaking more so of the developmental "attachment" some skiers have between rotary motion and vertical motion and the idea I am intending to convey is the ability/focus to separate them so they can be used independently. Motor patterns are often learned in "packages" of highly associated movements that, while helpful at times, can also require a "breakdown" of that package in order to move forward in development, something of which I believe is pat least partially the case in this skier's MA.. As a side note, even though a skier may be using effective retraction, it is still a vertical motion from the knees down that lightens the ski. I also know where you are coming from regarding the snow and terrain. I was a front four fanatic for three years in a row and catching them after each and every dump. That hill rocks.


Yup.  Need to separate the vertical movement from the rotation.  Experimenting a week or two ago in a little training course, found that if I added some up down I could rail a carved arc-2-arc turn around a particular gate during the down becoming up phase, but if I didn't add the dynamics, I could not carve that tight a turn at that speed - not enough down force on the ski.  Yeah, I already knew this, but it was nice to experience it.

post #17 of 137
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

Not a bad MA TreeFitter. I would love to have the OP submit a video of him doing RR turns. Although he appears to be a capable skier,  I am always amazed at how many at his level have trouble with that. They most always seem to initiate with a rotary move in this drill.  Another one is the Wedge Sort radius turns on moderate terrain. The problem there is pushing out the rear instead of bending the front. 


Ok ok, personally I don't like a lot modern short turn, I prefer an "old short turn style" with a pair of ski example Rossi Master M21 180 cm I don't like short ski, so when I try in a slope with 69% and cannon snow (ice ice as in in world cup mode....) is hard but very funny try it again and again.

post #18 of 137
Thread Starter 

In slope 69% and cannon snow is hard try good short turn.

Ski Rossi Hero Master 180. Is a very fun exercise and play full.

 

After three consecutive runs on these steep slopes with icy snow is good to take a break while skiing on easy slopes. In the last three years we no longer 'had snowfalls on the Alps south side so we trained a lot of very hard snow, these days it snowed, snow is more' easy, but the skiing reactions are different, carving expecting too much the reaction of skiing like you're on the ice, but usually this reaction of powdery soft snow does not arrive or get better after ....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdHgwgwnaws

 

the snow that move with the tail of the skis is not more than a thin layer of artificial never covering the frozen base making even the most ski days' challenging.

 

 

 


Edited by Manawa - 2/21/17 at 7:42am
post #19 of 137

I think your skiing level in the 1-9 hierarchy is fairly high, as you're comfortable in many snow and slope conditions... but that doesn't say much, as there's a bunch of stuff you could work on.

 

You now extend off the old edges to release with a hop - which causes you to miss the entire top of the next turn.

 

What if you tried instead to flex on the old edges, to release while flattening the skis, and only extend when on the new edges?

post #20 of 137
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

I think your skiing level in the 1-9 hierarchy is fairly high, as you're comfortable in many snow and slope conditions... but that doesn't say much, as there's a bunch of stuff you could work on.

 

You now extend off the old edges to release with a hop - which causes you to miss the entire top of the next turn.

 

What if you tried instead to flex on the old edges, to release while flattening the skis, and only extend when on the new edges?


Ciao, thanks a lot for your attention, ok I understand and total agree is the same thing that Italian instructor said me ;) I will try aganin and again and I will do exercises at a very low speed.

 

Much appreciated thank again

post #21 of 137

an idea. you can start by holding the poles just below the handles.

 

post #22 of 137

Why do a lot of Americans and Canadians preach flexion during transition like it is some mantra? It's just another technique, not a better technique. Of course it's a nice technique to have in your bag of tricks, but then again, you are not a better skier if you constantly flex during transition. The best skier is not the one who flexes, extends or does neither of the two during transition, the best skier is the one who can do all three at will. Whatever type of transition you choose to ski then is up to you.

Also it seems like either the definition of flexion during transition is vastly different, or the concept of flexion vastly different to what is taught in Austria. Just because you're squatted, doesn't mean you are skiing with flexion, at least not in Austria.  

post #23 of 137
If you paid attention - apparently you can add Italians to that list.

Agree though that Squatty is not flexing to release. You have to roll off the edge as well at the same time. When exacerbating in practice however, it may look squatty.

Here's how it looks after you get it:

or

cheers
post #24 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

an idea. you can start by holding the poles just below the handles.

 

Razie

 

First off, this one of the best drills out there although I prefer to hold the poles normally and try to drive the tips into the snow with power from my wrists to create a more "solid" alignment.

 

I know your advice is focused on retraction transitions, but take a close look (especially the skier in blue) at which leg is leading the initiation. It's the NEW  inside and there is rotary being implemented there that many intermediate to advanced skiers need to take note of.

 

Also, in the context of carved turns and to your point of starting the process asap, would you also consider inside leg extension (ILE) as a viable transition especially for the larger radius turns? 

 

EDIT Sorry I meant NEW inside leg.  


Edited by JESINSTR - 2/22/17 at 5:46am
post #25 of 137

@razie

You have no idea about the context of what his coach said, so no, we cannot add the Italians to that list. In general flexion during transition as a go-to-turn is a very American thing and definitely not a European thing. 

Also, imo that is not what it should look like. In the first one the timing is off, there is no pumping action and hence it is way too static. The second one is just something completely different to what I would consider flexion.
 

On a more general note, just because you are not that squatty in transition doesn't necessarily mean you are not skiing with flexion during transition.

post #26 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post
 

@razie

In general flexion during transition as a go-to-turn is a very American thing and definitely not a European thing. 
 

 

That's so weird because Europeans rule the WC.

 

tell it to this Austrian

 

 

or this Norwegian

 

 

Or any of their team mates or any of the other skiers that get up there.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post


Also, imo that is not what it should look like. In the first one the timing is off, there is no pumping action and hence it is way too static. The second one is just something completely different to what I would consider flexion.

 

 

Pumping? :eek

 

Now I'm curious as to what do you consider flexion? 

 

:dunno

post #27 of 137

Go take a look at Guenther Winkel or Benni Walch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPTortsGmjs
^This is a clip of Walch. Go to 3:54.That's how they generally ski in Austria. He ski's with hochentlastung, which is extension during transition. And he ski's with flexion during the turn when the pressure happens. Especially the inside leg gets retracted. And when something is retracting, it should also extend again. Action = reaction.

The clips you are showing hardly contain any flexing during the transition. They show ILE and OLF, which basically comes down to tipping the ski's, and might look squatty, but should definitely not be mistaken for flexing during transition. They flex (the inside leg) during the turn, when the pressure happens, not when they are floating and light. If you flex during the turn, you are extending during the the transition, because like I said: action = reaction. If you pay close attention to their skiing you will see their inside leg bent in an angle less than 90 degrees when the pressure happens, while their inside leg is bent generally in an angle of around 90 degrees or more when they are light during transition. This means their inside leg has extended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbGPkITDg2U
^Go to the 16 second mark. This is what I consider skiing with flexion during transition. In austria this is called tiefentlastung. You flex during transition and then extend when the pressure happens, because action = reaction.

If you go to the Kristoffersen clip, between 49 and 51 seconds, that is flexion too. Even though he is still quite extended, you can see he flexed during the transition in order to extend when the pressure happens to gain speed. That is skiing with flexion during transition or tiefentlastung (Austrian name for it).

Like I said. Either the definition, or the concept of flexion is different to what is considered skiing with flexion during transition in Austria. It looks like the whole concept is different, which might be a reason for why Europe is dominating and not America.

But let me ask you a question. If you flex your inside leg during the turn, when the pressure happens, to get more weight to the outside ski, how are you going to flex the inside ski even more during transition? The leg already fully flexes during the turn, it cannot flex even more. Also, that would mean you flex and then flex again, which is impossible. A turn always consists of flexion and extension, no matter what order. You can flex and then extend, or you can extend and then flex. But you cannot flex and then flex again, nor can you extend and then extend again.

post #28 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post

Go take a look at Guenther Winkel or Benni Walch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPTortsGmjs

^This is a clip of Walch. Go to 3:54.That's how they generally ski in Austria. He ski's with hochentlastung, which is extension during transition. And he ski's with flexion during the turn when the pressure happens. Especially the inside leg gets retracted. And when something is retracting, it should also extend again. Action = reaction.


The clips you are showing hardly contain any flexing during the transition. They show ILE and OLF, which basically comes down to tipping the ski's, and might look squatty, but should definitely not be mistaken for flexing during transition. They flex (the inside leg) during the turn, when the pressure happens, not when they are floating and light. If you flex during the turn, you are extending during the the transition, because like I said: action = reaction. If you pay close attention to their skiing you will see their inside leg bent in an angle less than 90 degrees when the pressure happens, while their inside leg is bent generally in an angle of around 90 degrees or more when they are light during transition. This means their inside leg has extended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbGPkITDg2U

^Go to the 16 second mark. This is what I consider skiing with flexion during transition. In austria this is called tiefentlastung. You flex during transition and then extend when the pressure happens, because action = reaction.


If you go to the Kristoffersen clip, between 49 and n you flex and then flex again, which is impossible. A turn always consists of flexion and extension, no matter what order. You can flex and then extend, or you can extend and then flex. But you cannot flex and then flex again, nor can you extend and then extend again.
post #29 of 137
Actually, art of skiing, the inside leg is flexed, and outside is extended during the turn. Then you flex the old outside ski and put it on the little toe edge.
post #30 of 137
I think a simple explanation why flex to release is better than extension of old inside leg:

If you extend, you diminish or lose contact with the snow, and there is nothing you can do to reestablish pressure(during the high c part of the turn), you just have to wait.

If you flex the old downhill leg, you reduce pressure on the new outside ski, but it's really easy to gradually extend the new outside leg to maintain or add pressure. You control this, vs not being able to control it if you extend during transition.

I believe the reason most instructors teach the old extend to transition method is because it's easier for a student to grasp.
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