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Tip lead in SL turm

post #1 of 94
Thread Starter 

I just watched a video from Julien Lizeroux in facebook https://www.facebook.com/JLizeroux/videos/1517987774908586/ and in some turns it looks like he is using quite a lot of tip lead.

 

Here are few pictures of what I saw: 

 

 

 

 

I've heard a lot about inside foot pull back - but to me it looks like he is doing exactly opposite.

 

Is it used to clear the gate? Or it is just the camera angle? Or it is something else?

 

What do you think.

 

The video itself is impressive approximately 5 minutes in SL gates... leaves me speechless :eek 

post #2 of 94

I don't think it is camera angle, but it looks like it only happens on his right foot and is mostly evident going into the transition.

post #3 of 94

Not the best SL skiing example, or a 'real' SL set given how open it is... I wouldn't use this as a model. Watch the top WC guys and you see much different skiing. 

post #4 of 94

The goal is always equal flexion that of which is on a spectrum opposite from these photo examples. The inside ski is not active in the turn here whatsoever. That's what I call getting caught with your pants down and it is an ugly feeling when it happens. He is not using tip lead. Tip lead is using him. 

post #5 of 94

Well, he gets points for putting it out there for all the world to see, and he gets points for style; he is smooth, and he didn't miss blocking a single pole. 

 

On the other hand he doesn't get any points for difficulty level.  I would not be reading anything into him making those turns vis-a-vis what technique is used;  it's really not that hard to make turns like the ones shown in the video, whether using proper tip lead or not.

post #6 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

Not the best SL skiing example, or a 'real' SL set given how open it is... I wouldn't use this as a model. Watch the top WC guys and you see much different skiing. 

Give him a break, he turns 38 this year and is still ranked 14 in the world ;-). He started skiing in the non-carving era. Agree though that his inside is lazy quite often here. I wonder if it has anything to do with a 5 minutes SL run?

post #7 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Give him a break, he turns 38 this year and is still ranked 14 in the world ;-). He started skiing in the non-carving era. Agree though that his inside is lazy quite often here. I wonder if it has anything to do with a 5 minutes SL run?

Exactly, I wonder how many of the armchair SL skiers here could ski a 1 minute course anything like that.

Does anyone have a photo of anyone in the WC skiing SL without tip lead?
post #8 of 94
This is a matathon-course. He is obviously skiing very "lazy" to endure and not trying to ski fast.
post #9 of 94
Tip lead is normal. Tip lead happens after the fall line, due to retracting the inside leg and due to skiing into counter. This is what gets you forward.

People claiming sl skiing is without tip lead should probably be paying closer attention to what is really happening. Hirscher, Kristoferssen, Pinturault, they all ski with tip lead behind the fall line as a result of what they do with their body/their technique.

On a sidenote, claiming Lizeroux is not a top guy is laughable. Especially if you have been paying attention to his skiing lately, which include multiple very fast and even some of the fastest runs.
post #10 of 94
Thread Starter 

What bothers me is not that there is tip lead but

  • I was surprised the amount of it - more than size of the boot
  • Timing - at the fall line in first picture or right after the fall line in second

 

So I'll try to summarize what is the common opinion:

  • course is easy - this is normal considering how long it is
  • he is skiing "lazy" - I do not have to search for special intent in this amount of tip lead
post #11 of 94

When clearing gates, sometimes pushing the inside shin forward before the contact, can be observed in SL gates - look at their free skiing instead. Also, when running gates, the SL boots tend to be at max stiffness and put on real tight for control and that reduces the ability to pull back an unweighted inside boot even more.

 

"pulling back" is a matter of the inside ski being lazy or shuffled on purpose vs kept back rather than some absolute geometrical relationship.

 

Even from your frames, you can see that maintaining equal ankle flexion is the last thing that's going on there, as they are at widely different angles of flexion -  that's not even really a focus in high performance skiing, that's just a geometrical relationship imposed by the boots on a lazy skier.

 

 

p.s. was that a "feel good" set or what?

post #12 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

"pulling back" is a matter of the inside ski being lazy or shuffled on purpose vs kept back rather than some absolute geometrical relationship.

 

 

 

I thought "pulling back" is related with early edge engagement...

post #13 of 94

His career is interesting. He peaked his SL rank in 2011, with a rank of 1, i.e. the best SL skier in the world. Then he got injured and struggled in his comeback, slumping down to rank 74 in 2014. Then he worked his way up again, and reached a 9th place during the current season.

post #14 of 94

 

It hasn't got anything to do with lazy skiing. Lizeroux showcased world class skiing from a world class athlete. This is Hirscher in Adelboden this year. Are you saying he was skiing lazy or hasn't got any inside boot control? That guy is strong as an ox and arguably has the best technique of anyone in the field. He knows how to ski.

Tip lead happens after the fall line due to two things. Inside leg flexion and skiing into counter. Biomechanically it is impossible to ski without tip lead if your hips are square (or open) and one leg is shorter (inside leg) than the other (outside leg). That is just not going to happen. If you want to eliminate tip lead, you have to close the hips. Otherwise you will not be able to pull the inside ski back far enough to eliminate tip lead.

Furthermore equal angles of boot flexion is NOT something you should aspire. There are more forces on the outside of the ski/turn, than on the inside, hence it is impossible to bend your inside boot just as much as the outside boot. Thinking that you can pull your inside ski back far enough to match the forces applied on the outside ski is bizarre.

Moreover, this hasn't got anything to do with stiff boots. In gs they ski with boots that are less stiff than their boots in slalom and yet their tip lead in gs skiing is much much bigger.

Basically it boils down to this. Inside leg flexion before the fall line is a result of tipping and the shape of the mountain, inside leg flexion after the fall line is what gets you forward and is more of a 'sitting down' movement with the inside leg. This movement creates shin pressure and tip lead. Skiing into counter also means more tip lead, because counter gets you more in-between your ski's. Like I said in gs skiing there is much bigger tip lead, this is because they ski with more counter and more inside leg flexion in gs.

 

post #15 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteW View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

"pulling back" is a matter of the inside ski being lazy or shuffled on purpose vs kept back rather than some absolute geometrical relationship.

 

 

 

I thought "pulling back" is related with early edge engagement...

 

pulling back the inside foot? it's very beneficial, to keep you forward throughout the turn and biomechanically allow the ankles to work, prevent hip dumping and more. It's a common cue in race training, to try to keep the tips even (although that can be done by pushing the outside ski forward, which is not the same thing). by itself, it doesn't directly lead to early edge engagement.

 

What i meant was that the effort itself matters, not the precise amount the boot moves.

 

about the first video - watched first half and that was a lazy set, very little offset and wide open.

 

cheers


Edited by razie - 1/12/17 at 7:58am
post #16 of 94

GS. Well after the fall line. Biggest angles possible. No tip lead... if not even negative.

 

 

I cannot get enough of this photo. It is awesome from so many points of view.

 

Technique and tactics are related, but really two separate things. I.e. seeing what they do is just half the story. Why they do it in this or that case is the other half.

post #17 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

GS. Well after the fall line. Biggest angles possible. No tip lead... if not even negative.

 

 

I cannot get enough of this photo. It is awesome from so many points of view.

 

Technique and tactics are related, but really two separate things. I.e. seeing what they do is just half the story. Why they do it in this or that case is the other half.

 

Gut's got the glutes! 

post #18 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

GS. Well after the fall line. Biggest angles possible. No tip lead... if not even negative.

 

 

I cannot get enough of this photo. It is awesome from so many points of view.

 

Technique and tactics are related, but really two separate things. I.e. seeing what they do is just half the story. Why they do it in this or that case is the other half.


1. That is only one pic. That doesn't make it representative for what is usually happening. I could show you lots of pics where tip lead is happening.
2. Her hips are clearly closed, which explains why there is no tip lead
3. You cannot really see whether this is behind the fall line or not, behind the gate is not the same as behind the fall line. But if you have seen the clip and know it is, I'll take your word for it. (Just like you cannot see it in the Hirscher pics, but I have seen the run and I guess you have to take my word for it as well.) 
4. It may be an awesome photo, technique wise it is not great (unless it is tactics).
5. Like you said, tactics and technique are related. Maybe she didn't want a very tight arc and hence didn't have any tip lead. I am not saying tip lead should be present at every single turn, all I am saying is that it is normal to have tip lead. In general tip lead allows for a tighter arc.
6. This obviously is not a typical turn. Her outside leg is way to straight and her inside knee is not inside the hip judging from where her inside boot is. Looks like she caught a rut or she made a mistake and is correcting herself.


@Rich: This is not Gut, looks like Fenninger.

 

post #19 of 94

Yes, I thought it's Anna as well.

 

We can certainly agree to disagree. Shuffling or lazy tip lead would create the opposite of a tighter arc, since the skier falls back and loses useful coiling. She has tons of tip pressure and that was the point, tactically, looks like she just needed the offset, hence she's camping out in front of the boot with the long leg.

 

What do you mean by the hip is closed? I'm having some trouble visualizing what you mean. Is is closed as in flexed (folded) excessively or is it closed as in not countered?

 

I'm not saying some minimal tip lead is not normal, of course it is, unless you're in tele boots and bindings. And those guys manage to ski well - often way better than anyone not in tele. hint hint.

post #20 of 94

Usually, the most dynamic of racer photographs are dynamic due to the racer being in some type of compromised position they would rather not be in such as some type of line recovery move like this one above or the one a couple weeks back when Gut was leaning on the ground to complete a turn in a GS race she won.

 

Oh, and regarding my glute comment, it doesn't matter which skier as they both dominate in the glute category. I do, however, now see the brunet hair. Thank you for correcting my rear end identification. I need to pay more attention. :)

post #21 of 94

@razie 

Closed as in not countered.

Anna is definitely not in the front of the boot there, I am willing to bet you there is hardly to no shin pressure at all. But sometimes no pressure at all is faster. That is tactics.


Do not get me wrong btw, I am not saying you should purposely create tip lead by pushing the inside ski forward. All I am saying is that tip lead occurs naturally due to counter and inside leg flexion. It is a result of biomechanics. Hence it seems quite strange to me to argue against it.

post #22 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post
 

@razie 

Closed as in not countered.

Anna is definitely not in the front of the boot there, I am willing to bet you there is hardly to no shin pressure at all. But sometimes no pressure at all is faster. That is tactics.


Do not get me wrong btw, I am not saying you should purposely create tip lead by pushing the inside ski forward. All I am saying is that tip lead occurs naturally due to counter and inside leg flexion. It is a result of biomechanics. Hence it seems quite strange to me to argue against it.

 

I didn't say she's on the shins - that's not where pressure comes from, but the front of the boot literally as in ball of the foot.

 

To study counter and lead, do this:

 

Start braquage, i.e. sliding slowly down the hill, with the feet close together

counter, as in turn the hips to face down the hill as well as you can.

check your uphill ski tip lead: likely lots

now, without un-countering the hips, reduce the tip lead by flexing the knee (i.e. from hamstrings).

 

I can do this contortion until there is no more tip lead, without unwinding the counter significantly. If you can't, it means there's some biomechanical limitation as in range of flexion or boot setup.

 

cheers

 

p.s. if you're not arguing for purposefuly pushing the boot forward (shuffling) that means you're either saying that we should 1) have a lazy inside foot (which neither pushes forward nor pulls back, just hangs there) or 2) pull it back as possible, in which case you're agreeing with me.

post #23 of 94

Ah I'm sorry. I misunderstood.

Which knee would you like me to flex? The inside or the outside knee?
If you flex the inside knee, tip lead will only increase. If you flex the outside knee tip lead will decrease, but probably not enough to undo the tip lead. At least not you are still countered which you are suggesting me to do.

post #24 of 94

the inside (uphill), but I said "without unwinding the hips" so I don't imply sitting down. I mean to not change the hips at all while pulling it back. maybe it sounds weird in words, you could just try it on snow and see what's what.

 

it should help discover that the act of pulling back the inside ski while pushing the inside hip forward is not only possible, but helps create even more counter... and this will be the useful kind.


Edited by razie - 1/12/17 at 9:54am
post #25 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post




It hasn't got anything to do with lazy skiing. Lizeroux showcased world class skiing from a world class athlete. This is Hirscher in Adelboden this year. Are you saying he was skiing lazy or hasn't got any inside boot control? That guy is strong as an ox and arguably has the best technique of anyone in the field. He knows how to ski.


Tip lead happens after the fall line due to two things. Inside leg flexion and skiing into counter. Biomechanically it is impossible to ski without tip lead if your hips are square (or open) and one leg is shorter (inside leg) than the other (outside leg). That is just not going to happen. If you want to eliminate tip lead, you have to close the hips. Otherwise you will not be able to pull the inside ski back far enough to eliminate tip lead.


Furthermore equal angles of boot flexion is NOT something you should aspire. There are more forces on the outside of the ski/turn, than on the inside, hence it is impossible to bend your inside boot just as much as the outside boot. Thinking that you can pull your inside ski back far enough to match the forces applied on the outside ski is bizarre.


Moreover, this hasn't got anything to do with stiff boots. In gs they ski with boots that are less stiff than their boots in slalom and yet their tip lead in gs skiing is much much bigger.


Basically it boils down to this. Inside leg flexion before the fall line is a result of tipping and the shape of the mountain, inside leg flexion after the fall line is what gets you forward and is more of a 'sitting down' movement with the inside leg. This movement creates shin pressure and tip lead. Skiing into counter also means more tip lead, because counter gets you more in-between your ski's. Like I said in gs skiing there is much bigger tip lead, this is because they ski with more counter and more inside leg flexion in gs.


 
of course you are right.

But what all these great skiers do is pull back VERY strongly their inside foot.except for Lizeroux, at least in those pictures.
post #26 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post


of course you are right.

But what all these great skiers do is pull back VERY strongly their inside foot.except for Lizeroux, at least in those pictures.

Hirscher doesn't seem to be doing it either then judging by those pics I posted.

Imo the pull back happens before the fall line, not after the fall line. A pull back after the fall line will tense up your muscles and tense muscles move slower than relaxed muscles, which will translate in a slower edge change/transition. Another thing I feel in my own skiing is that being relaxed allows me to use the ground and my body weight for acceleration much better. 

post #27 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post




It hasn't got anything to do with lazy skiing. Lizeroux showcased world class skiing from a world class athlete. This is Hirscher in Adelboden this year. Are you saying he was skiing lazy or hasn't got any inside boot control? That guy is strong as an ox and arguably has the best technique of anyone in the field. He knows how to ski.


Tip lead happens after the fall line due to two things. Inside leg flexion and skiing into counter. Biomechanically it is impossible to ski without tip lead if your hips are square (or open) and one leg is shorter (inside leg) than the other (outside leg). That is just not going to happen. If you want to eliminate tip lead, you have to close the hips. Otherwise you will not be able to pull the inside ski back far enough to eliminate tip lead.


Furthermore equal angles of boot flexion is NOT something you should aspire. There are more forces on the outside of the ski/turn, than on the inside, hence it is impossible to bend your inside boot just as much as the outside boot. Thinking that you can pull your inside ski back far enough to match the forces applied on the outside ski is bizarre.


Moreover, this hasn't got anything to do with stiff boots. In gs they ski with boots that are less stiff than their boots in slalom and yet their tip lead in gs skiing is much much bigger.


Basically it boils down to this. Inside leg flexion before the fall line is a result of tipping and the shape of the mountain, inside leg flexion after the fall line is what gets you forward and is more of a 'sitting down' movement with the inside leg. This movement creates shin pressure and tip lead. Skiing into counter also means more tip lead, because counter gets you more in-between your ski's. Like I said in gs skiing there is much bigger tip lead, this is because they ski with more counter and more inside leg flexion in gs.


 
of course you are right.

But what all these great skiers do is pull back VERY strongly their inside foot.except for Lizeroux, at least in those pictures.


No, but he's pulling it back as far as he has to in order to make those turns (i.e. not at all or at least no more than habit would make him).  Point is don't look at those particular turns of his to figure out how to make the best slalom turns.  Maybe look at some turns where is is racing on a tighter more demanding course (and doing well).

post #28 of 94
Look at him do a normal SL on the WC. In the posted video he is "jogging".
post #29 of 94

Lizeroux, 1st run, Zagreb, this year. He skied the 2nd fastest run, after Manuel Feller. He was faster than Hirscher, Kristoffersen and Moelgg.

Tight turn = more tip lead.

Was he jogging here as well?
 

post #30 of 94

The question may be, does he have more tip lead because the pull back is not as strong or does he have more tip lead because   he has more  vertical separation of the feet.  I suppose we can examine the appearance of the shafts of the lower legs to get some ideas.   YM

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