EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Marker Binding Techs - My Griffons are hard to step into!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Marker Binding Techs - My Griffons are hard to step into!

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 

I am 5'8" 150 lb expert skier who uses an 8.5 DIN settings.  I recently mounted a set of Marker Griffons onto Nordica Enforcers (100).  The boots are Technica Cochise with an alpine toe sole (not the Dynafit compatible toe sole).  I do all my own binding work as I was a certified ski tech between '75 - '90.  I have two issues with these bindings.  

 

When the binding is set up with the correct forward pressure setting (FP adjustment screw flush with housing), the boots will not fit into the open binding.  I have backed off the forward pressure a little bit (2-3 clicks) and now the boots are very tight in the binding.  So tight that the boot will actually stick between the toe and the open heel piece.  There is barely enough room to engage the boot into the binding.  I know the Cochise is an alpine/AT boot but the boot sole conforms to DIN standards.  Is this boot/binding phenomenon normal for other correctly adjusted Marker Griffons?

 

The second issue is as I step into the binding and attempt to engage it, it takes me a LOT of pressure to fully step in.  My full body weight is not enough to engage the binding.  I actually need to stomp on my ski to engage the heel.  Stomping the ski is actually easy to do since the boot sticks into the binding.  Is this normal for Griffons?   I have skied for over 55 years and have NEVER encountered a binding that requires that much force to step into.   

 

These two issues make getting into these bindings a PITA.  While inconvenient at the base lodge, this could be problematic in powder or on steeps.  Years ago, I have had to put a ski on in Corbet's.  Not fun!  These would be near impossible to put on there.  In two days skiing on these bindings, I have no issues with performance as I rarely fall or release.  Any feedback or thoughts on this issue is greatly appreciated.  If this is normal Griffon behavior, I may need to find another binding.

post #2 of 51

^^^ yes that is a common complaint on the Marker Royal family of bindings.

I have had many Griffon & Jester bindings over the years but I have never complained about that problem ->  though I am 175 lbs and set my DIN at 6.5.  I have since switched to the Attack 13 Demo as my binding of choice.

post #3 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARL67 View Post
 

^^^ yes that is a common complaint on the Marker Royal family of bindings.


I've heard this as well.

 

(I have Aattack 13s on my Enforcers.)

post #4 of 51
what is your boot size and bsl length ?
post #5 of 51
Thread Starter 


Boot is a 26.5 and 310 BSL. 

post #6 of 51
When you say that when the FP adjustment screw is flush with housing you can't get the boot in, do you mean you've adjusted the screw with no boot in it to be flush with the housing? The screw is supposed to be flush with the housing with the boot in the binding, so I'm not sure I'm following how you can check that it's adjusted properly if you can't get the boot into the binding when the binding is out n the correct position.

Have you had a release test done? Marker Royal bindings aren't the easiest to step into, but I'd be concerned that they weren't releasing properly if you can't even get the boot in when they're adjusted properly.
post #7 of 51
Thread Starter 


Hope this clarifies my issues.  I adjust the FP setting, after the boot is IN the binding.  Then, after I release the boot (which is also not easy), the boot barely fits the opening when trying to reenter the binding.  

 

I have not done a mechanical release test to verify functionality as I no longer have a Vermont Safety torque wrench tester.  However, back at the mountain shop, we used to do the self twist and the step out test to verify binding functionality.  I guess I'll try that just to make sure it works.  

post #8 of 51
You should be adjusting the FP screw with the boot out of the binding. Adjust, insert boot to check, then remove boot and readjust if necessary.

I wonder if you've now stripped out the adjusting mechanism by trying to turn it with the boot in the binding?

FWIW, I don't have any issues getting into my Griffons with a 28.5 boot, BSL 320. It is a little snug compared to some other bindings, but nothing crazy.
post #9 of 51
Thread Starter 

No, the heel piece still moves forward and back on the track, when the boot is not in the binding.  The problem is that once the FP is correctly set, the boot does not really fit back in AND it is extremely hard to engage.  I've been working on binding since 1976 and this heel piece is a bear.  Way worse than the old Look Grand Prix heel.  Looks like I may be in the market for new bindings.  Oh well.    

post #10 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha407 View Post

You should be adjusting the FP screw with the boot out of the binding.

Sorry but that is absolutely wrong. forward pressure against what?  Air?  FP is always adjusted with the boot IN the binding.  The problem the OP talks about is a common problem with these wretched  bindings.  I had one pair once and was very happy to get rid of them.

post #11 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha407 View Post

You should be adjusting the FP screw with the boot out of the binding.
Sorry but that is absolutely wrong. forward pressure against what?  Air?  FP is always adjusted with the boot IN the binding.  The problem the OP talks about is a common problem with these wretched  bindings.  I had one pair once and was very happy to get rid of them.

Yeah, I'm glad your reaction to that post was the same as mine. Hm.
post #12 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

Sorry but that is absolutely wrong. forward pressure against what?  Air?  FP is always adjusted with the boot IN the binding.  The problem the OP talks about is a common problem with these wretched  bindings.  I had one pair once and was very happy to get rid of them.

Sure, why not? It's usually just a worm screw that makes the adjustment, and it's better not to be turning it while it's under stress from the boot being in the binding.

Put the boot in the binding and see where the screw sits. Take the boot out of the binding and adjust the screw as necessary. Put the boot back in to check whether you've got it right. Repeat until you do get it right.
post #13 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post
 

Sorry but that is absolutely wrong. forward pressure against what?  Air?  FP is always adjusted with the boot IN the binding.  The problem the OP talks about is a common problem with these wretched  bindings.  I had one pair once and was very happy to get rid of them.

 

Click in, check forward pressure, remove boot, adjust, click in again to check, remove boot and adjust if needed ... rinse and repeat until the forward pressure is dialled in.  This is what I've been taught is the correct approach - it removes pressure from the binding while the adjustment is underway.  In practice (at demos that I've attended) both approaches are used.  At a busy demo tent it can be quicker and easier to adjust while the boot is in the binding, although you do need to remove the boot and click in again as a final check.

 

To the OP, the Marker Royal family has a reputation for being tough to click into.  Not always, but often enough that they've earned that reputation.  My GF had to swap out her Griffons (for Tyrolias) in order to click into one ski, although the other was fine.  To get correct forward pressure the design seems to require the point of the heel to push back against the roll over above the little lever on the heel piece of the binding.

post #14 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade View Post

When you say that when the FP adjustment screw is flush with housing you can't get the boot in, do you mean you've adjusted the screw with no boot in it to be flush with the housing? The screw is supposed to be flush with the housing with the boot in the binding, so I'm not sure I'm following how you can check that it's adjusted properly if you can't get the boot into the binding when the binding is out n the correct position.

 

When you turn the fp screw with the boot out of the binding the heel moves back or forward but the screw doesn't go into  the housing to the flush position until the boot is in the binding, pushing the heel back against the spring while the screw stays in the same place relative to the heel track. The OP is setting the FP with the boot in the binding. The problem I've had with Markers--not just royals--is that on the bench it can be hard to get the boot into the binding unless you lift up on the heel release leaver while pushing down on the boot. The same procedure may also have to be used in powder, but on firm snow, while Markers are harder to step into than other bindings they shouldn't be as tough as the OP is describing. Perhaps something about the shape of the heel of that particular boot is making it hard? I'm not a tech.

 

Maybe the reason most of us get by with Markers is that unlike the OP we're too fat.

post #15 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinbad7 View Post

 

My GF had to swap out her Griffons (for Tyrolias) in order to click into one ski, although the other was fine.  

 

Was it the same binding, or always one leg? My wife always had trouble with her left KB binding, which we assumed was a leg strength issue (it was the injured leg, but also her less strong leg), but it perhaps it could also have been the individual binding.

post #16 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 

 

Was it the same binding, or always one leg? My wife always had trouble with her left KB binding, which we assumed was a leg strength issue (it was the injured leg, but also her less strong leg), but it perhaps it could also have been the individual binding.

 

Same binding and (mostly) the same leg.  The only reason I know that is 'cause she has the first generation of the Bushwacker and the topsheets join together to form a bull's head (on one ski) and the matching horn (on the other).  For the most part (but not always) she skis them with the head/horn combo correctly aligned.  One binding was harder to click into than the other.

 

I've kept the bindings and will mount them onto something myself at some stage.  I expect I'll click into those suckers, no problem.

post #17 of 51

The problem is the boot sole combined with the worst, most popular, performance binding made. The rubberized sole of the boot creates additional friction to a system that is already a tough fit. 

 

The best 'fix' is to change the way you step into the binding. If you watch how most people step into a ski binding they have their body weight forward and are trying to push the heel down. Picture a skier with their weight on their ski poles and boot toe as they push back and down with the heel. Instead, try placing your boot toe into the binding and then stand up straight and rock back against the rear cuff of the boot, use the boot back as a lever arm to force your boot heel into the binding. Think: less pushing down, more leveraging body weight against boot rear cuff. It makes it easier... but the Royal bloodline is some BAD genetics.

post #18 of 51
Thread Starter 

I am beginning to agree with the bad design (genetics) opinion as everyone seems to indicate this is a symptom of all Marker Royal series (my wife skis on F10s and has no such issue) heels.  With my entire body weight, I cannot engage the heel!  That is totally ridiculous!  I literally have to stomp on my ski to engage the heel.  I have not tried to "lever" my way into the heel but don't want to have to resort to unusual maneuvers just to enter my binding as I have been having some knee issues.  Having primarily skied Markers for the last 40+ years, they have always been my first choice for bindings.  They have now lost a life time customer.  Too bad...

post #19 of 51

Interesting to read this. I have just had my first day on my brand new Volkls with iPT Wideride Marker bindings, and I was just thinking about this. It's indeed quite hard to click in. I can do it with just a tiny jump, but it's much harder than the Tyrolia bindings I have had in the past. Glad to hear it's not just mine. They feel good and solid otherwise, but seems to be a general Marker design feature. 

post #20 of 51

The concern is around trying to click into a binding in knee deep powder up on the hill.  How do you jump-and-stomp to click in when there's no effective resistance?  I swapped them out for a Tyrolia so I wouldn't have to climb up the hill to help when she couldn't get back into the binding at all on the hill.

post #21 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinbad7 View Post
 

The concern is around trying to click into a binding in knee deep powder up on the hill.  How do you jump-and-stomp to click in when there's no effective resistance?  I swapped them out for a Tyrolia so I wouldn't have to climb up the hill to help when she couldn't get back into the binding at all on the hill.


Yeah, I guess Markers are really an east coast binding.

post #22 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocdoc View Post
 

Interesting to read this. I have just had my first day on my brand new Volkls with iPT Wideride Marker bindings, and I was just thinking about this. It's indeed quite hard to click in. I can do it with just a tiny jump, but it's much harder than the Tyrolia bindings I have had in the past. Glad to hear it's not just mine. They feel good and solid otherwise, but seems to be a general Marker design feature. 

The iPT Wide Ride binding is essentially the same as the Royal Family bindings, virtually the same heel, and that's where the problem lies.

post #23 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post
 

The problem the OP talks about is a common problem with these wretched  bindings.  I had one pair once and was very happy to get rid of them.

 

Same, except I've got two pair on skis I really enjoy.

 

Never again, though.

 

Attack 13s suit me fine.

post #24 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRPufnStf View Post
 

Attack 13s suit me fine.

 

Good call.  I've become a fan of the Attack bindings.  Last two bindings I purchased were Attack 16s.

post #25 of 51
Thread Starter 

Based on this feedback, I am considering the Tyrolia Attack 13 as a possible replacement for my Griffons.  For those of you that had a Marker Griffon previously mounted and switched to Tyrolia/Head Attack bindings, did the previous Marker hole pattern require moving the boot location?  I am comparing the hole patterns to the two bindings and the back two toe binding screw locations are darn close but not the same.  Hence, it looks like I would need to move the toe piece up a bit to avoid overlapping the holes.  Any actual experiences are greatly appreciated. 

post #26 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by fudman22 View Post
 

Based on this feedback, I am considering the Tyrolia Attack 13 as a possible replacement for my Griffons.  For those of you that had a Marker Griffon previously mounted and switched to Tyrolia/Head Attack bindings, did the previous Marker hole pattern require moving the boot location?  I am comparing the hole patterns to the two bindings and the back two toe binding screw locations are darn close but not the same.  Hence, it looks like I would need to move the toe piece up a bit to avoid overlapping the holes.  Any actual experiences are greatly appreciated. 


There is no question that Marker Royals are hard to step into. Your description, though, sounds like there is something wrong. I have a pair of Griffons and your description of not having enough room for your boot to engage the heel piece sounds impossible given what I'm looking at on my bindings. You might still have a problem worth investigating.

 

As for adjusting FP while the boot is in the binding...I would never! Granted in reality you are only going to do it once or twice ever, but those components are not designed to be adjusted under load. If you find a manufacturer recommending it in their setup manual, go for it. Otherwise, I wouldn't.

post #27 of 51
Thread Starter 

I have tried to ignore this issue as it was not a point of my original post but this misconception seems fairly widespread.  The issue of adjusting the FP with the boot out of the binding must be some kind of recent urban myth.  Being an old timer, I have never heard of this, ever.  Is there a currently certified ski binding mechanic on this forum who can verify that it is a binding company's policy to adjust FP with the boot OUT of the binding?  

 

Granted, I am no longer certified but I was by multiple manufacturers and I have mounted thousands of bindings.  Not much has really changed regarding ski binding design over the last 40 years since binding certification was instituted.  In my day, no manufacturer EVER specified removal of the boot to adjust the FP.  When you use a binding jig, the FP is automatically set in about 50% of the cases.  For the balance of situations, a turn or two, in or out, is typically all that is required to adjust FP.  I am also a mechanical engineer.  The technical reason for forward pressure is to maintain proper boot-binding contact during ski flex and counter flex.  When the ski flexes, the distance between the toe piece and the heel is reduced, so the heel slides backward on the track.  The FP springs allows the movement and avoids creating excessive FP, which would compromise the set release value.   When the ski counter flexes (e.g. in bump skiing), the distance between toe piece and heel expands.  Without FP, the boot would actually loosen within the binding.  The FP spring force is there simply to prevent a premature release during a ski counterflex by maintaining the proper boot binding contact.  Lastly, the force that must be overcome by the FP adjustment screw is the spring force of the FP springs.  If you look at a heel binding, there are usually one or more springs underneath that provide forward pressure.  I am guessing, based on the typical size of FP screws, that this FP spring force is less than 100 lbs.  Even in a 100% plastic binding housing, that is not a lot of force on the housing.  Hence, adjusting the FP with the boot in the binding should not be an issue.  

 

BTW, since I am an old geezer, I thought I would check to see how current professional mechanics adjust the FP.  I surveyed some YouTube videos on binding adjustment and every mechanic adjusts his bindings with the boot in the binding.  

 

The Organic Ski Mechanic

post #28 of 51
There are some bindings, actually quite a few, that require the boot to be out of the binding to adjust FP, because there isn't a screw like on the Marker bindings. For bindings that have the adjustment screw, the correct method for setting forward pressure is with the boot in the binding. Yes, I am a certified tech.
post #29 of 51
I just checked the current Marker service manual, and yes, it says to adjust the FP screw with the boot in the binding. It also says to then remove and reinsert the boot to double check.

I could have sworn that older Marker manuals said to adjust the screw with the boot out of the binding, but I could just be imagining things. Or maybe they changed it?

Anyway, it can't do any harm to make the adjustment with the boot out of the binding, but yeah, may as well just do it the way Marker says.
post #30 of 51

The issue here is real on the griffons and can confirm.  With smaller BSL which means higher DINs You can search and find similar threads.  There is something to do with the geometry of the heel pivot catching on shorter boot too.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Marker Binding Techs - My Griffons are hard to step into!