EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Swix EVO Pro Edger (Power side edge tool)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Swix EVO Pro Edger (Power side edge tool) - Page 2

post #31 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by casoundinc View Post

http://www.razor-tune.com

I think this is my choice.  I love the edge it puts on, the wheel is fantastic and yes, my 14 year old can make it work, really really well.  Worth a look.

C.

That looks interesting. Looks like a simpler version of a SnowGlide or Protek.

What determines the tension of the grind wheel on the edge? Is the motor shaft spring loaded? How is the tension kept at a constant rate as the wheel wears?
post #32 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainKirk View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by casoundinc View Post

http://www.razor-tune.com

I think this is my choice.  I love the edge it puts on, the wheel is fantastic and yes, my 14 year old can make it work, really really well.  Worth a look.

C.

That looks interesting. Looks like a simpler version of a SnowGlide or Protek.

What determines the tension of the grind wheel on the edge? Is the motor shaft spring loaded? How is the tension kept at a constant rate as the wheel wears?


I checked the site.  It is spring loaded. 

post #33 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post


I checked the site.  It is spring loaded. 

Thanks Jacques.

I just found out something interesting. It looks like both these new grinders don't use true diamonds in their grinding wheels. They use CBN (cubic boron nitride) a synetic super abrasive developed by GE that is better than diamond for grinding hardened steel. It is just as hard as diamond, but get this, doesn't transfer heat to the metal as it grinds. The CBN is an excellent heat absorber, so the wheel absorbs any heat from the grinding process. I was wondering why the wheel on my Swix got warm, but the edges of the skis didn't. I just learned this from a friend I ski with, who happens to be a PH.D. materials science engineer. He is also a woodworker, and uses CBN wheels to sharpen his lathe tools. He said CBN has revolutionized metal grinding in the past few years.
post #34 of 103

Spring loaded, the guide bearings are offset by a hair so it only cuts on the down stroke, which of course requires a bit of wheel break in time.  Bevel is as accurate as I could measure and I went pretty nuts with it.  Exactly right about the material of the wheel.  Again, there are a bunch of great edge grinders out there and they all do incredibly well, this just seems meet the good fast cheep triangle well.

 

C.

post #35 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainKirk View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post


I checked the site.  It is spring loaded. 

Thanks Jacques.

I just found out something interesting. It looks like both these new grinders don't use true diamonds in their grinding wheels. They use CBN (cubic boron nitride) a synetic super abrasive developed by GE that is better than diamond for grinding hardened steel. It is just as hard as diamond, but get this, doesn't transfer heat to the metal as it grinds. The CBN is an excellent heat absorber, so the wheel absorbs any heat from the grinding process. I was wondering why the wheel on my Swix got warm, but the edges of the skis didn't. I just learned this from a friend I ski with, who happens to be a PH.D. materials science engineer. He is also a woodworker, and uses CBN wheels to sharpen his lathe tools. He said CBN has revolutionized metal grinding in the past few years.


Sweet info.  Maybe a bit less hardening of the edges then.  Good?  Bad?  So I wonder how much it cost.  Not that I would buy one.....ha ha ha.  I guess never say never.  Well..........maybe sometimes.

post #36 of 103

"good fast cheep"    I know there is a saying about those words.  Can't remember. 

 

Image result for good fast cheap quotes

 

Image result for good fast cheap quotes

post #37 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post


Sweet info.  Maybe a bit less hardening of the edges then.  Good?  Bad?  So I wonder how much it cost.  Not that I would buy one.....ha ha ha.  I guess never say never.  Well..........maybe sometimes.

Definitely less work hardning of the metal if less heat transfered. Probably why industrial companies jumped on CBN technology when it became viable. I think it has been only recently that it has become affordable for everyday use. The more I read about it, the more I want to try a CBN wheel for my workshop grinder. Nothing worse than sharpening a tool and overheating it with a bench grinder...

I do understand what you are saying about the satification about using hand tools. Some of the most satisfying projects around the house were done completely with hand tools. But, if I just want to get a repair done quickly, the power tools are coming out!

I know this sounds crazy to many skiers, but in the race community, skis are seen as disposable tools to get the job done. Especially tech event skis. If you can get two seasons out of a pair without destroying them, you are lucky. One bad crash, and they may be bent. I have seen every single brand delaminate, sometimes right in the middle of a race run. Even if you get two seasons out of them, more than likely FIS is going to change the rules, and what you have will be illegal to race on. So in that light, everybody wants a constantly sharp ski, but nobody wants to spend a lot of time doing it. Why spend more time hand tuning when a faster way is available, especially when that ski may just blow up in the next race or training session.
post #38 of 103

Actually, it's not a matter of heat transfer to the metal; diamond actually reacts with iron at very high temperatures, dissolving the carbon out of the diamond to form carbides.  That is what makes diamond unsuitable for grinding steel.  I was involved with manufacturing CBN grinding wheels back in the 70's.  At that time, GE still held the patent on CBN crystal production, but like the production of synthetic diamond, it is now manufactured by many different companies and so the price has come down...a lot! That, as well as development of equipment and processes to take advantage of the characteristics of the abrasive, have made it's use more widespread.  

post #39 of 103
Greeeaaatttt I now have a new toy to budget for. Lol
(Got the Mantec electric scraper sharpener for Christmas!!!)
post #40 of 103

@CaptainKirk thanks for all the info about the EVO.  Mine is arriving today.

 

So tell me, do you use the EVO everyday on a pair of skis or use a more typical diamond stone progression most days and use the EVO only when the edges dull? 

 

I typically file every maybe 10 days of skiing Eastern snow, stone in between.  It gets dull though.

 

Wondering how to approach this tool over the course of 60 days of skiing on a pair of skis in a season.

 

How many 1 pass tunes with the Fine stone do you think a pair of skis could handle per season?

post #41 of 103

Do you have much of a feel yet for how long the discs will last. What has kept me out of a grinder so far is the cost of consumables.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainKirk View Post


One bad crash, and they may be bent. I have seen every single brand delaminate, sometimes right in the middle of a race run.

 

I tweaked a pair of slaloms booting out in soft snow. They're not trashed, but I wouldn't race on them. Sometimes it doesn't even take a bad crash. As far as delaminating mid-run, have you ever seen it happen in speed? It's not pretty.

 

What a lot of people don't understand is that you want a good pair of skis to last as long as possible, and the electric grinders extend the life of a ski significantly because you have a consistently sharp edge while removing less metal than you can do by hand. For people who enjoy hand tuning, good for you. But for the rest of us who may be constantly tuning several pairs of skis, there is a better way.

post #42 of 103


Could you provide more information on the Razor Tune? I've never heard of them, but the site looks interesting. Those wheels should be able to be resurfaced reasonably inexpensively, so if you have a few grinding wheels they should last a very long time.

 

I keep eying the Black Diamond Innovations grinder, which is conceptually similar to the Snowglide but reportedly higher quality, but always choke a bit on the cost of unit and consumables.

post #43 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigreen505 View Post
 

Do you have much of a feel yet for how long the discs will last. What has kept me out of a grinder so far is the cost of consumables.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainKirk View Post


One bad crash, and they may be bent. I have seen every single brand delaminate, sometimes right in the middle of a race run.

 

I tweaked a pair of slaloms booting out in soft snow. They're not trashed, but I wouldn't race on them. Sometimes it doesn't even take a bad crash. As far as delaminating mid-run, have you ever seen it happen in speed? It's not pretty.

 

What a lot of people don't understand is that you want a good pair of skis to last as long as possible, and the electric grinders extend the life of a ski significantly because you have a consistently sharp edge while removing less metal than you can do by hand. For people who enjoy hand tuning, good for you. But for the rest of us who may be constantly tuning several pairs of skis, there is a better way.

Don't bet on it.  A good hand tune is not going to remove more edge.  One only needs to remove the same amount as one of those fancy grinders to get sharp again.

This theory that a disc grinder will sharpen with less removal is a fairy tale. If one needs to remove 2 microns then it's all the same.  One can do the same with hand tools.  If the heat is lessened to the edge what's the advantage?

The whole deal was the excess heat hardened the edge, thus it lasted longer between tunes..

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigreen505 View Post
 


Could you provide more information on the Razor Tune? I've never heard of them, but the site looks interesting. Those wheels should be able to be resurfaced reasonably inexpensively, so if you have a few grinding wheels they should last a very long time.

 

I keep eying the Black Diamond Innovations grinder, which is conceptually similar to the Snowglide but reportedly higher quality, but always choke a bit on the cost of unit and consumables.

One way or the other.........you gotta' pay the piper!

post #44 of 103

Hello RobSo,

    Thanks for your post and interest in Razor-Tune.  We have been developing, testing and perfecting the design for a year.  I have been developing products for fortune 500 companies for 25 years and finally decided to make a cost effective tuning product for race parents like me and the self tuners out there.  I have been hand tuning for 20 years and I used to think that a machine couldn't get an edge as sharp as I could by hand.  I was wrong.  There are many great machines out there over $1200, but my goal was to make an equal or better product for half the price.  We developed the product with input from top tuning technicians and coaches in the Northeast.  We launched the commercial version Q4 2016 and we have extremely positive feedback from customers with the main complaint being hand cuts from sharp edges!  Haha.  Anyway here are the answers to your questions.

 

The bevel is spot on at 2 or 3 degrees...engineered into the 3D CAD model and verified on the production builds.  The interchangeable base plates set the side angle,  and the plates cover the width of the ski for stability.  As you point out,  with the base facing up you have a stable platform to work from and gravity is on your side.  

 

The abrasive wheels are CBN synthetic super-abrasive. The best technology for dry grinding hardened steel. Unlike the Swix product with1.25" plastic wheels and about 1/32" of abrasive thickness, our  wheels are machined aluminum, 75mm diameter and 3mm (1/8") abrasive thickness.  So that is about 10x the abrasive for 10x the life.  We have measured the wear rate on the wheels and you will get 300-500 tunes out of the Coarse and Medium wheels.    It depends on how dull you let the edges get between tunes.   If you do light tunes every couple ski days, you will get over 500 tunes. The Fine wheel will last a lifetime since it is only used for polishing. 

 

Will we still be around??  I certainly hope so.  We have hundreds of wheels in stock and more on the way.  Learn more at www.razor-tune.com and you can submit a message to me directly from there.  If you are with a club, we can talk discounts.

 

Thanks and Ski sharp!

Razor-Tune

post #45 of 103

Interesting.  Can you compare to Protek or Snowglide in terms of durability of motor, and overall unit maintenance?

What about bevel (which looks plastic or similar) compared to the alum or stainless guides used in the higher end machines?

 

I'll assume the finish can be comparable (perhaps more passes with this unit), what speed does the wheel run?

 

Safe to say the costs savings vs. Protek and Snowglide are primarily based on housing material, motor quality, adjustability, guide/bearing materials?

Like most people I like to get as much value as I can for my dollar, just trying to understand what I am actually trading off when it comes to pricing.

 

Thanks

post #46 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

@CaptainKirk
 thanks for all the info about the EVO.  Mine is arriving today.

So tell me, do you use the EVO everyday on a pair of skis or use a more typical diamond stone progression most days and use the EVO only when the edges dull? 

I typically file every maybe 10 days of skiing Eastern snow, stone in between.  It gets dull though.

Wondering how to approach this tool over the course of 60 days of skiing on a pair of skis in a season.

How many 1 pass tunes with the Fine stone do you think a pair of skis could handle per season?

It all depends on the snow. I have not had to touch the edge for several days if skiing on real snow with no ice. If I am on the typical New England race hill, which ends up being a lot of really hard dirty ice, the ski will need touched up for the next day. If just getting dull, but no rock burrs, I just make one quick pass with the fine wheel. If burrs from small rocks or sand trapped in the ice, I make a pass or two with a 200 grit Moonflex to clean up the edge then finish with one pass of the fine. If I had the medium or course wheels, I could use those instead of the Moonflex to clean up the edge.

I have no idea how long the Swix wheel will last. I am really only using it for the final polish. The Moonflex is taking the abuse to get any rock damage off first. If I would have thought about it when new, I could have measured the abrasive thickness, then kept a log of how many linear feet of edge I have ground so far. Then all you have to do is remeasure the abrasive thickness, and you can calculate a projected wheel life as long as you are grinding in a consistent way.
post #47 of 103

I've tuned a few pairs with it now.  Same approach as you, 200 moonflex in a 3 degree guide to clean up the edges.  Pull back sidewall if necessary.  One pass with the Edger.  I then hit the base edge with a surgical stone to remove the hanging burr and one no-pressure pass down the point of the edge with a gummi stone.    Skis look and feel great.

 

I do wonder if a medium, or coarse grinding stone would be good to have to cut more material when needed.  Then again if it eats away at the edge anything like my scraper-sharpener eats away at my scrapers I want to go easy with the other stones.

post #48 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

I've tuned a few pairs with it now.  Same approach as you, 200 moonflex in a 3 degree guide to clean up the edges.  Pull back sidewall if necessary.  One pass with the Edger.  I then hit the base edge with a surgical stone to remove the hanging burr and one no-pressure pass down the point of the edge with a gummi stone.    Skis look and feel great.

 

I do wonder if a medium, or coarse grinding stone would be good to have to cut more material when needed.  Then again if it eats away at the edge anything like my scraper-sharpener eats away at my scrapers I want to go easy with the other stones.

I am about ready to pull the trigger!

post #49 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

I am about ready to pull the trigger!

Used an early release model before they were widely available for general purchase, I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed and you'll find it money well spent.

post #50 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

Used an early release model before they were widely available for general purchase, I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed and you'll find it money well spent.

But I gotta admit I am considering the Razor-tune!

post #51 of 103

Leaning (gently) towards the Razor Tune at the moment.

 

We've had so much great snow in the PNW this season, I've never spent less time sharpening edges.

 

Or more days on real pow skis!

post #52 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

But I gotta admit I am considering the Razor-tune!

It appears to be a pretty good little piece for the money as well, just goes about achieving the same thing in a  different manner is all.  End result is really all we care about anyway.  

 

Besides the incredible ease of use the Swix EVO has, something that really surprised me was how little hanging burr it leaves.  When I say little, I mean next to non at all.  I'm guessing that's due to the fact it has very light spring pressure pushing the disk down on the edge and it takes so very little actual material off.

post #53 of 103
I like the idea of having the unit sit on the ski base up. I am guessing the hanging burr is less because the grinding is done across the edge not down it????
post #54 of 103

I am leaning towards the Razor Tune myself.  Love the idea of tuning with base up.  Should be pretty hard to slip and mess up. 

post #55 of 103

I have no concerns about sharpness and assume precision should be good, but how smooth or fine of a finish will the fine disk produce on any of these machines? Equivalent to a 400 grit diamond? 800, 1200, 1500? Translucent Arkansas stone? Making a sharp edge with hand tools is quick and easy. Getting a perfectly smooth finish from an elaborate stone progression is what takes forever.

 

Also, has anybody tired lubricating the edge before grinding to produce a better finish? I've never used a stone dry like that before.

post #56 of 103

The evo instructions say to have a dry edge.  1 pass with the fine stone and a quick burr cleanup is all it takes.  Very fine finish.

post #57 of 103
I am looking forward to getting one of these in my hands. Lots of buzz with the "tuning dads" at the training center this past weekend. Keep up the reviews!
Edited by ZrxMan01 - 1/15/17 at 5:30pm
post #58 of 103
Oh yeah and don't worry Jacques. Should I feel the need to spend hours on my edges. I think am set!!! Lol

post #59 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZrxMan01 View Post

Oh yeah and don't worry Jacques. Should I feel the need to spend hours on my edges. I think am set!!! Lol


Oh yea!  Sweet.  You have what it takes there.  Hours........yes, need those too!  :popcorn

post #60 of 103

I feel bad for that one poor lonely coarse DMT stone.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Swix EVO Pro Edger (Power side edge tool)