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157cm SL skis anyone? - Page 2

post #31 of 58

I was studying your hands/arms in that video and they seem to track with or even ahead of the skis.  At the same time your hips are developing counter - so this to me is classic 3-way-separation.

 

If the arms stayed with the hips it would be 2-way separation.

 

Do you agree?  

post #32 of 58
Great thought provoking thread......with great skiing as always !!!

Dunno if I have the energy for those little magic slippers but if I get a chance it would sure be fun trying to emulate those turns Tom!

Happy New Year my friend!
post #33 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

I was studying your hands/arms in that video and they seem to track with or even ahead of the skis.  At the same time your hips are developing counter - so this to me is classic 3-way-separation.

 

If the arms stayed with the hips it would be 2-way separation.

 

Do you agree?  

 

Yes! Glad you spotted it. IMO I'm pulling off what you are calling 3-way separation. I'm creating a wind up tension in my spine. Turning my hips into the turn with my inside ski increasing tip lead and my hips opening up at the same time I'm trying to face forwards with my shoulders in order to increase forward momentum and get the outside arm in place for gate blocking. The down side is that I think I hold on to it a bit too long. My coach is of the opinion that this is a bad thing. I should be only countering and projecting my forward momentum slightly down hill instead of across the hill. He has a point to what he is saying but that's just his opinion hahaaa.

post #34 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrstrat57 View Post

Great thought provoking thread......with great skiing as always !!!

Dunno if I have the energy for those little magic slippers but if I get a chance it would sure be fun trying to emulate those turns Tom!

Happy New Year my friend!

 

Thanks. Happy new year to you too. Get a pair of 157s and get that rock'n'roll snapping and poppin happening.... its like going from a Strat to a LesPaul :yahoo:

post #35 of 58

I've just watched a number of videos I have and what you're doing is pretty normal.  I think skiers do lead with their arms and shoulders, while they use their hips independently.

post #36 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Thanks. Happy new year to you too. Get a pair of 157s and get that rock'n'roll snapping and poppin happening.... its like going from a Strat to a LesPaul yahoo.gif

Actually just recently swopped my 73 Sunburst Gibson Les Paul Deluxe for a Gibson ES335.....between that and my 72 Telecaster Thinline the single coil Strats have been taking a long nap.....

I'll keep my eye out for some 157 WC Racetiger SL's!
post #37 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

I've just watched a number of videos I have and what you're doing is pretty normal.  I think skiers do lead with their arms and shoulders, while they use their hips independently.

 

Yes, I think so too. But as we discussed earlier, not many will recognize it as 3-way separation.

post #38 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrstrat57 View Post


Actually just recently swopped my 73 Sunburst Gibson Les Paul Deluxe for a Gibson ES335.....between that and my 72 Telecaster Thinline the single coil Strats have been taking a long nap.....

I'll keep my eye out for some 157 WC Racetiger SL's!

 

Yes, keep an eye out for those 157s. They turn tighter and makes for a lot of fun. My home hill is a very small one. With the shorter ski I get lots more turns and fun. Note that the design changed last year so be sure you get the 2016 or the 2017 model. Whish I still had my 335 but I'm totally in love with my 00015M custom made Martin. Cant put it down. Soon I'm gonna play like Emmanuel and ski like Hirscher :)

post #39 of 58

Once again here I go.  146's  I need to video some turns with them.  I'll I've doing for days now is removing snow!  The roof is a "B"!

 


 

post #40 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

UPDATE

 

 

 

I have now come to the conclusion that its all a matter of gate distance and offset. 

Absolutely, and related to that, speed. 

 

High level FIS and WC are often closer to 13m, while Master around here are closer to 10. I heard from you that you even have significantly below 10, and then you could really benefit from 157 IMO.

post #41 of 58

Sometimes you will never know how a ski will  handle certain course metrics until you ski it. I think this is the main reason why world cup skiers need so many duplicate models with slight (after the fact) identification of variations in torsion and flex balance with them wherever they go so they can find which one may work the best on any given day on "that" day of competition (especially DH).

 

TDK, you are a big guy, have you ran 170's in the course with any of your models? There are two theories to size of skier to size of ski. The first is that a larger ski works better for a larger skier in terms of matching forces. The other theory is that a large skier is not going to be as quick and therefore needs to make up that deficit with the quicker sized ski (shorter). Out of the course, I definitely prefer theory #1. 

post #42 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Absolutely, and related to that, speed. 

 

High level FIS and WC are often closer to 13m, while Master around here are closer to 10. I heard from you that you even have significantly below 10, and then you could really benefit from 157 IMO.

 

I'm also certain that I will benefit from the shorter ski on tighter courses. I will go to the competitions with both the 157s and the 165s.

 

You mention speed. I can feel that the 157 is much slower in terms of how fast you can ski. The longer turn radius, the longer length, the added stiffness and the added weight all add to stability and edge hold. And that adds to speed.


Edited by tdk6 - 1/11/17 at 1:49pm
post #43 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

Sometimes you will never know how a ski will  handle certain course metrics until you ski it. I think this is the main reason why world cup skiers need so many duplicate models with slight (after the fact) identification of variations in torsion and flex balance with them wherever they go so they can find which one may work the best on any given day on "that" day of competition (especially DH).

 

TDK, you are a big guy, have you ran 170's in the course with any of your models? There are two theories to size of skier to size of ski. The first is that a larger ski works better for a larger skier in terms of matching forces. The other theory is that a large skier is not going to be as quick and therefore needs to make up that deficit with the quicker sized ski (shorter). Out of the course, I definitely prefer theory #1. 

 

What you are saying is perfectly true. I'm definitely slower in my movements than smaller more agile persons.

post #44 of 58

I'm no expert, but it seems to me it's about the efficient use of the rated turn radius.  You can push a ski to turn much sharper that the rated radius, but then you scrub speed. 

That is not efficient. 

That said obviously weight vs stiffness and turn radius all comes into play.

Notice with today's WC GS skis etc. that there is a lot of stivot  (sp) going on.  Slide to where you want to go, then engage the edge.  Does that make sense?

If you want pure carve the radius etc. of the ski must be taken into account.

post #45 of 58
Thread Starter 

When you carve at speed you always bend the ski and it always turns tighter than the turn radius. What makes this so difficult is that testing skis is not an easy thing to do. I had two pairs with me last night but I was not able to test them both in equal conditions. The track was wearing out quickly and just jumping on different skis for one run means nothing. For us amateurs its really just a gamble. A pair of skis I have in my basement could well be the right pair but they perhaps were never tuned right or tested in the right conditions. This is why you need to be methodical and experiment. A good way to start is to take a pair of skis that you are recommended and then start tuning them and testing them out in different conditions. This could take a whole season.

post #46 of 58

Yes.  I'm continuing to "evaluate" my new Stockli Laser SC's.  I love the skis, but one teaching day I stayed on my teaching skis (Fischer Hole WC SL's) and liked them more.  Back and forth and I learned a lot about the Stockli's.

 

I do know that I like them more in loose snow and a little fresh snow (all I've had them on) compared to the SL's, but what about compared to my Blizzard Latigo's?

 

So tomorrow I'm taking those two pairs of skis to learn how the SC's feel as compared to the Latigo's, a nice soft snow ski.

 

I want to really understand that ski and when I might want to use another ski.

post #47 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

What you are saying is perfectly true. I'm definitely slower in my movements than smaller more agile persons.

 

No, that's not the primary point I was making. When we choose between two sizes, it is a trade off of stability and power vs quickness and agility. At your speed level, quickness may be more a benefit than stability, a metric that can easily change with the course set.

 

In your video, you have no problem bringing your skis all the way around, but in the belly of the turn, they seem to be digging in too much, trenching, over bending, heavy spray, etc. AKA speed sapper.

post #48 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

Yes.  I'm continuing to "evaluate" my new Stockli Laser SC's.  I love the skis, but one teaching day I stayed on my teaching skis (Fischer Hole WC SL's) and liked them more.  Back and forth and I learned a lot about the Stockli's.

 

I do know that I like them more in loose snow and a little fresh snow (all I've had them on) compared to the SL's, but what about compared to my Blizzard Latigo's?

 

So tomorrow I'm taking those two pairs of skis to learn how the SC's feel as compared to the Latigo's, a nice soft snow ski.

 

I want to really understand that ski and when I might want to use another ski.

 

Report please!

post #49 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

 

No, that's not the primary point I was making. When we choose between two sizes, it is a trade off of stability and power vs quickness and agility. At your speed level, quickness may be more a benefit than stability, a metric that can easily change with the course set.

 

In your video, you have no problem bringing your skis all the way around, but in the belly of the turn, they seem to be digging in too much, trenching, over bending, heavy spray, etc. AKA speed sapper.

 

I hear you. But could you point me to the exact video you are referring to. I have many posted here.

post #50 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

I hear you. But could you point me to the exact video you are referring to. I have many posted here.

 

Your slow line fast video with the steep pitch. Didn't I also see a vid with you skiing through stubbies on that same pitch? Maybe another thread. I can't find that one but felt the same way after watching that one too. Anyway, I'm a big guy like you and know how much inertia we can build up in the turn compared to those both lighter and shorter. You know, the little people. While there may be a number of reasons why you are doing what you're are doing and not knowing your exact intent, I notice that you are killing almost all your speed in every turn by releasing your CoM almost directly across the slope (perpendicular to fall line/holding on too long) right after a pretty significant surface penetration that looks a bit extreme. I think that you wouldn't over penetrate like that on a 170 SL which may be also contributing to turning too much. Something Rick's site refers to as degree of turn. I think you were also posting about turning more across the hill due to the steep pitch but it feels a bit overkillish. It almost feels like you are going slower because of your "enhanced inertia" rather than faster. For free skiing, it appears like too much muscular effort for that kind of breaking. However, if it is your intent to ski with such a high degree of turn for whatever training reason, you are certainly accomplishing that goal. Nonetheless, good solid skiing as usual and something that is rarely seen from big skiers unless they are WC monsters. I much appreciate the influx of your specific content that is unique, well written and well supported by video. Always gets me thinking.

post #51 of 58
Thread Starter 

Thanks for your good words on my videos and postings Rich. You are right. I scrub off a lot of speed by releasing across the hill. That is however my intent. This is a very steep pitch and I try to control my speed after each fall line and manage to ski down the hill without accelerating. I start the next turn as soon as I feel comfortable with the speed. I did this on a clinic up north with other instructors last year and when I did 8 turns the others did 4 and 5. And they were way out of control as they reached my position on the steep.

post #52 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

 

I think you are correct about why he does it. I just find it hard to agree that this maneuver is very transferable to another individual. The way I see it, it the result of a complex evolution that slowly worked its way into Ligety's technique long after he mastered many other things. When I watch TDK ski, what impresses me most is his management of a CoM that is significantly higher and heavier than most skiers going after SL like he does. I believe he achieves this, partially, through skiing very clean. Ligety's swim arm ain't clean but he can get away with riding dirty.

 

Oh, and thank for knocking some sense into him about their video. can't assess anything with half second clips.

Actually this is exactly what is being taught to racers here. it is about getting stacked and aligned and forward early on the LTE of of the old inside , new outside ski early. Very prevalent now at the World Cup level. 

 

I just had this conversation and watched some video on this very subject with the Race Team Director here last Monday evening.   It is the pullback of the inside shoulder before edge change that is so different. 


Edited by Atomicman - 1/14/17 at 10:17am
post #53 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Actually this is exactly what is being taught to racers here. it is about getting stacked and aligned and forward early on the LTE of of the old inside , new outside ski early. Very prevalent now at the World Cup level. 

 

I just had this conversation and watched some video on this very subject with the Race Team Director here last Monday evening.   It is the pullback of the inside shoulder before edge change that is so different. 

 

Please explain...

post #54 of 58
Watch ligety, it is what makes him lookike he is swimming down the coutse. not sure I can say it more clearly, but if you pull your inside shoulder back at the turn finish it gets you forward. This is before edge chang & on LTE of inside ski
post #55 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Watch ligety, it is what makes him lookike he is swimming down the coutse. not sure I can say it more clearly, but if you pull your inside shoulder back at the turn finish it gets you forward. This is before edge chang & on LTE of inside ski

 

But its after the release?

post #56 of 58

Here you go.  Under discussion is the new outside arm, aka Ted's right arm.

Still on old edges, he moves that arm waaay back in frame one, the lifts it,

then opens it outward with the hand high; by the last frame he is just beginning

to bring the hand forward.

post #57 of 58
Thread Starter 

Here is a great video of Ted freeskiing:

 

post #58 of 58

Boy does his outside arm lead ahead of his outside ski or what?

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