New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Tuning debate - Page 3

post #61 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 


I would say this depends on where you ski, how you ski and what you are used to. I prefer my skis to be razor sharp. Part of the time it's actually needed, or better to say, >I< needed them like this to feel safe with $20.000 of photo equipment on my back, while lot of coaches and service guys go down same course a bit less controlled way with their "I don't remember when I touched my edges" skis. The other time, when I'm just skiing for fun (either it's between the gates on injected snow or on public slopes which are soft or icy), I just prefer them to be sharp. This means I'm using file at least once a week, more likely twice, which actually brings it close to every 2 to 3 days (plus at least diamond and ceramic after every single skiing). Thing is, you can shave of very little edge when you know how to do it and when you have right tools. And it actually helps if ski is well maintained. With my skis, I shave very little of edge away with file, while when dealing with friend skis, which they bring them to me once every few months, I file like crazy to get to at least somehow decent sharpness. 

Another thing to consider is ski itself. As I wrote before, race skis have thinner edges by default. Skis I'm skiing have most of them edges filled away even further, as they were used (at least for test) by certain racer, so with my filing (and skis history) they normally survive one winter, but it's a bit easier for me, as "hey mister, I'm through the edge, can I pop for beer and pick new pair like today evening?" works for me :) With normal non-racing skis and their thicker edges, I wouldn't worry all that much about this, as you can file for long long time before you are through.

 

Can you expand a bit on what is involved with "ceramic"? The reason I ask is Falline Tuning and Repair at Sun Peaks has a ceramic edge sharpening machine that puts an incredibly shiny polished edge on a ski. Is there a way to do something similar by hand at home?

post #62 of 86
I have a Swix ceramic stone I use last in the series. https://www.amazon.com/Swix-Ceramic-Stone-Fine-T0998/dp/B001M9KJ7M
post #63 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 


I would say this depends on where you ski, how you ski and what you are used to. I prefer my skis to be razor sharp. Part of the time it's actually needed, or better to say, >I< needed them like this to feel safe with $20.000 of photo equipment on my back, while lot of coaches and service guys go down same course a bit less controlled way with their "I don't remember when I touched my edges" skis. The other time, when I'm just skiing for fun (either it's between the gates on injected snow or on public slopes which are soft or icy), I just prefer them to be sharp. This means I'm using file at least once a week, more likely twice, which actually brings it close to every 2 to 3 days (plus at least diamond and ceramic after every single skiing). Thing is, you can shave of very little edge when you know how to do it and when you have right tools. And it actually helps if ski is well maintained. With my skis, I shave very little of edge away with file, while when dealing with friend skis, which they bring them to me once every few months, I file like crazy to get to at least somehow decent sharpness. 

Another thing to consider is ski itself. As I wrote before, race skis have thinner edges by default. Skis I'm skiing have most of them edges filled away even further, as they were used (at least for test) by certain racer, so with my filing (and skis history) they normally survive one winter, but it's a bit easier for me, as "hey mister, I'm through the edge, can I pop for beer and pick new pair like today evening?" works for me :) With normal non-racing skis and their thicker edges, I wouldn't worry all that much about this, as you can file for long long time before you are through.

 

Can you expand a bit on what is involved with "ceramic"? The reason I ask is Falline Tuning and Repair at Sun Peaks has a ceramic edge sharpening machine that puts an incredibly shiny polished edge on a ski. Is there a way to do something similar by hand at home?


Just a ceramic stone — I believe they're something like 1200 grit. Very fine and polishy. :)

post #64 of 86

Ceramic stones are the best for removing burrs from the base edges as they are harder than a whores heart, yet won't remove edge as a diamond stone can.

They produce the finest polish possible.  Although a hand ceramic stone won't produce heat, they can also create an edge that last a bit longer that a diamond stone finish.

They are sometimes referred to as a surgical stones as that's what they use to sharpen scalpels and dental curettes. 

 

https://the-raceplace.com/collections/files-stones/products/ceramic-stone

post #65 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanoT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

 


I would say this depends on where you ski, how you ski and what you are used to. I prefer my skis to be razor sharp. Part of the time it's actually needed, or better to say, >I< needed them like this to feel safe with $20.000 of photo equipment on my back, while lot of coaches and service guys go down same course a bit less controlled way with their "I don't remember when I touched my edges" skis. The other time, when I'm just skiing for fun (either it's between the gates on injected snow or on public slopes which are soft or icy), I just prefer them to be sharp. This means I'm using file at least once a week, more likely twice, which actually brings it close to every 2 to 3 days (plus at least diamond and ceramic after every single skiing). Thing is, you can shave of very little edge when you know how to do it and when you have right tools. And it actually helps if ski is well maintained. With my skis, I shave very little of edge away with file, while when dealing with friend skis, which they bring them to me once every few months, I file like crazy to get to at least somehow decent sharpness. 
Another thing to consider is ski itself. As I wrote before, race skis have thinner edges by default. Skis I'm skiing have most of them edges filled away even further, as they were used (at least for test) by certain racer, so with my filing (and skis history) they normally survive one winter, but it's a bit easier for me, as "hey mister, I'm through the edge, can I pop for beer and pick new pair like today evening?" works for me smile.gif With normal non-racing skis and their thicker edges, I wouldn't worry all that much about this, as you can file for long long time before you are through.

Can you expand a bit on what is involved with "ceramic"? The reason I ask is Falline Tuning and Repair at Sun Peaks has a ceramic edge sharpening machine that puts an incredibly shiny polished edge on a ski. Is there a way to do something similar by hand at home?
Yeah get a power tool with their own discs. Tri One, Fog Man, Pro Tek, Snow Glide, Disc Man etc.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tSzls7EMDtU
https://youtu.be/C2PTcS7Wa_E

@primoz , what are Wcup techs using these days for Alpine?
post #66 of 86

@Tog  You must have seen this one.   I will have the video start at the correct time.   Listen until 27:00, then a bit longer.  The answer in about one minute.

https://youtu.be/ZdgshStMh0A?t=25m57s

post #67 of 86

@DanoT With ceramic I mean stone which Sibhusky put link to. But it's not for polishing but to... now this is going to be hard to describe with my English :) It actually creates sort of burr. You hold stone freehand, press it on side edge angled toward base (for example if your file holder is 3 degrees, you hold stone -3 degrees) and drag from tip to tail pressing quite hard. Believe it or not (I'm sure you won't believe it, as I know quite few techs in WC who didn't believe it until they tried :) ), it works like charm on ice, but unfortunately doesn't last for very long. I hope it makes at least a bit sense and you got idea what I wanted to explain. Sometimes it's just so damn hard to explain such things when English is not your native language :)

@Tog well most of them use files :D Machines are not all that popular, but pretty much everyone I know has Trione, but most of them keep them in boxes and use files. :) That doesn't mean Trione is best option, but it was one of first (if not first at all) usable machines, and people got them. And if you don't use it really lot, it lasts long time, so most of them don't change them just because something newer came out.

post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 

@DanoT With ceramic I mean stone which Sibhusky put link to. But it's not for polishing but to... now this is going to be hard to describe with my English :) It actually creates sort of burr. You hold stone freehand, press it on side edge angled toward base (for example if your file holder is 3 degrees, you hold stone -3 degrees) and drag from tip to tail pressing quite hard. Believe it or not (I'm sure you won't believe it, as I know quite few techs in WC who didn't believe it until they tried :) ), it works like charm on ice, but unfortunately doesn't last for very long. I hope it makes at least a bit sense and you got idea what I wanted to explain. Sometimes it's just so damn hard to explain such things when English is not your native language :)

I originally thought you meant a rollover burr but from your description of angling the opposite way and pressing quite hard it might be a Poisson burr (or some combination of the two).

  

post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 

@DanoT With ceramic I mean stone which Sibhusky put link to. But it's not for polishing but to... now this is going to be hard to describe with my English :) It actually creates sort of burr. You hold stone freehand, press it on side edge angled toward base (for example if your file holder is 3 degrees, you hold stone -3 degrees) and drag from tip to tail pressing quite hard. Believe it or not (I'm sure you won't believe it, as I know quite few techs in WC who didn't believe it until they tried :) ), it works like charm on ice, but unfortunately doesn't last for very long. I hope it makes at least a bit sense and you got idea what I wanted to explain. Sometimes it's just so damn hard to explain such things when English is not your native language :)

@Tog well most of them use files :D Machines are not all that popular, but pretty much everyone I know has Trione, but most of them keep them in boxes and use files. :) That doesn't mean Trione is best option, but it was one of first (if not first at all) usable machines, and people got them. And if you don't use it really lot, it lasts long time, so most of them don't change them just because something newer came out.


Wow, that is hard to understand.  If I got it right, seems you are removing the burrs on the inside of the base edge where it meets the plastic. Creating a smooth interface between edge and plastic.   An often overlooked step in fine work.

Then again.......maybe I don't understand you.

post #70 of 86
I understood it that he is creating an intentional burr, by another side polish, without using a gummi to remove it. I'm wondering how consistent this burr would be along its length and how easily broken to bits and rendered a mess, and therefore worse than useless. However, this is Primoz, so I have to assume he knows what he is doing. However, I'd never attempt such a thing.
post #71 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I understood it that he is creating an intentional burr, by another side polish, without using a gummi to remove it. I'm wondering how consistent this burr would be along its length and how easily broken to bits and rendered a mess, and therefore worse than useless. However, this is Primoz, so I have to assume he knows what he is doing. However, I'd never attempt such a thing.

That's what I understood as well -- a stone held at right angle to the edge, to the tip of the edge and, with a great deal of pressure, creating a burr that points straight down (?) into the snow. Doesn't last long, he says.
post #72 of 86

Most of the discussion in recent posts is a little too technical for me to attempt on my skis (I also can get free ski tuning through my employer), however I find the discussion most interesting.

post #73 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I understood it that he is creating an intentional burr, by another side polish, without using a gummi to remove it. I'm wondering how consistent this burr would be along its length and how easily broken to bits and rendered a mess, and therefore worse than useless. However, this is Primoz, so I have to assume he knows what he is doing. However, I'd never attempt such a thing.


Oh...I think you are correct.  Not sure why I was thinking base edge looking back now as he said 3 degrees.   Too much snow removal and a few beers I guess.

 

Anyway the burr would be minimal with ceramic assuming it's a high grit.   I have heard of intentional hangers for icy conditions.  The hanger would be going down into the ice like a blade of sorts.

post #74 of 86

Hand tuning is a bit of an art form.  Sure anyone can do it, the difference is end result.  Some of this is feel and understanding in the material and tools you work with.  Diamond stones and ceramics make it easier to get a good finish by almost anyone. Files if you really know what you are doing can achieve the same results, but you need feel to do it.

 

Its not the tools, its the operator.  Better tools just make it easier, not better.

 

Which is why a there is a difference between a good tune a fantastic tune with the same tools, just different operators.

post #75 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

Hand tuning is a bit of an art form.  Sure anyone can do it, the difference is end result.  Some of this is feel and understanding in the material and tools you work with.  Diamond stones and ceramics make it easier to get a good finish by almost anyone. Files if you really know what you are doing can achieve the same results, but you need feel to do it.

 

Its not the tools, its the operator.  Better tools just make it easier, not better.

 

Which is why a there is a difference between a good tune a fantastic tune with the same tools, just different operators.

Sorry, just can't help myself.

post #76 of 86

I have no idea what is proper word for this sort of burr, but I will try to make little picture later on (most likely tomorrow when I'm back from Zagreb), to make it little more understanding what I mean. But I think Sibhusky got it right.  Cantunamunch I have in my memory this rollover burr too, but not 100% sure if this is really it. Things are a bit to technical for my English, sorry guys :)

This is done mostly on SL and sometimes on GS skis, but never on speed skis, as it makes skis slow(er), and with forces you get at 100+km/h it won't last really long.

post #77 of 86

If the OPis still around, if it hasn't been said, now that your families skis are on good shape it won't take much to keep them that way if you have your own tuning bench set up. Make the investment now and repeat the benefits of always skiing on well tuned skis.

 

I touch my skis up after each ski day, takes less then 5 minuets, and wax as needed depending on snow quality.

 

Look at http://www.bing.com/search?q=ski+tuning+sites&src=IE-TopResult&FORM=IETR02&conversationid=&adlt=strict to get an idea of what's needed. I'm drawing a blank right now, on a lap top, but I buy a lot of items from terry Ackerman's site. He's a member here too. Damn but I can't think of the sites name....he sends out emails every now and then too.

 

Lots of info in this forum.

 

Here, had to go to my PC to find the link, http://www.slidewright.com/

 

You'll want the ski visions base flattener tool also. I use it a few times on the base before I reaffirm the base bevel and edge angles before I wax.


Edited by Max Capacity - 1/5/17 at 6:51am
post #78 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

Ceramic stones are the best for removing burrs from the base edges as they are harder than a whores heart, yet won't remove edge as a diamond stone can.

They produce the finest polish possible.  Although a hand ceramic stone won't produce heat, they can also create an edge that last a bit longer that a diamond stone finish.

They are sometimes referred to as a surgical stones as that's what they use to sharpen scalpels and dental curettes. 

 

https://the-raceplace.com/collections/files-stones/products/ceramic-stone

http://www.tognar.com/arkansas-stone-translucent/

 

 

This is the stone I use for final polish and knocking off hanging burr.

 

  • The TRANSLUCENT Arkansas stone is ultrafine for the ultimate edge polish.
  • We offer these premium Arkansas stones for the finest, most precise edge honing and finishing results. 
  • Extracted from quarries in the Ouachita Mountains of Arkansas.
  • Stones are cut by circular diamond saws from Novaculite blocks (a naturally-occurring 99.9% pure silica sedimentary rock) then lapped smooth and flat on silicon carbide grinding machines. 
  • The result is a unique crystal structure that enables it to finely cut, hone and polish steel better than any manmade bonded abrasive stones (including ceramic, aluminum oxide, silicon carbide or diamond).
  • 3" x 1" x 1/4" can be used in conjunction with most base and side edge bevel guides to precisely maintain your desired bevel angles. 
  • Comes in a sturdy leather pouch with our Tögnar logo.
post #79 of 86

They're a great stone and pocket sized to carry along with you too.  Just don't accidentally drop them on a concrete floor because they have a tendency to break like glass, same goes for ceramics.  Yeah, ask me how I know. :rolleyes 

post #80 of 86
I've destroyed three of them.
post #81 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

I have no idea what is proper word for this sort of burr, but I will try to make little picture later on (most likely tomorrow when I'm back from Zagreb), to make it little more understanding what I mean. But I think Sibhusky got it right.  Cantunamunch I have in my memory this rollover burr too, but not 100% sure if this is really it. Things are a bit to technical for my English, sorry guys smile.gif
This is done mostly on SL and sometimes on GS skis, but never on speed skis, as it makes skis slow(er), and with forces you get at 100+km/h it won't last really long.

Know that it's done intentional makes for some new tuning experiments.

Burrs can be razor sharp in one direction and dull in the other. The trick is to work the metal not drag (stone or file) the metal into a burr. Dragged it is still soft and breaks unexpectantly or and poor consistancy. Ideally you work the metal that it moves into a burr. Consistent, work hardens the metal (longer life). From a logic standpoint the burr must be down I would think and likely more in the center of the ski when on edge and not at tips and tail for risk of catching.


@primoz I'd really be interested in what the top are actually doing and if my logic holds. The how is easy, the where and why not so. BTW it's burnishing the edge.

For more information on burnishing Lee Valley issue a technical bulletin years ago on this subject for scrapers. Here is a link to one of their tools (which might work for skis).


http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32643&cat=1,310,41070
post #82 of 86

Ok here's two photos which I hope will explain what I meant :)

 

First you hold ceramic stone "on base" and drag along the edge from tip to tail (as alpine is much less anal then xc in this, you can easily do it from tail to tip too :) ). These are my GS skis, so base angle is 0.5, and you can see angle of stone to base is way more then 0.5 degrees.


 

Then you do it from side, pressing down and again dragging stone from tip to tail on edge (or from tail to tip whatever suits you better):

 

I'm holding stone on photos just to show the angle, as otherwise you hold stone and pressing with thumb on it on point where it touches angle, not like I'm holding it on photos. This way it would break in two pieces in second, as you need to generate quite a bit of pressure.

I hope this makes more sense now, as photos can explain things much easier and better then my English can :)

post #83 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

 

I hope this makes more sense now, as photos can explain things much easier and better then my English can :)

You keep saying that, yet your English is MUCH better than many American's.

post #84 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OnSnow View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

 

I hope this makes more sense now, as photos can explain things much easier and better then my English can :)

You keep saying that, yet your English is MUCH better than many American's.


True. Europeans are enviable linguists — they have to be, both because schools (and governments) require it, and because they live where there are lots of languages within shouting distance. Primoz's first explanation did the trick for me, perfectly coherent.

 

(I'd just mention, in the same spirit of precision I'd hope natives would apply to my French, that then talks about time, than about difference.).

post #85 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

Ceramic stones are the best for removing burrs from the base edges as they are harder than a whores heart, yet won't remove edge as a diamond stone can.

They produce the finest polish possible.  Although a hand ceramic stone won't produce heat, they can also create an edge that last a bit longer that a diamond stone finish.

They are sometimes referred to as a surgical stones as that's what they use to sharpen scalpels and dental curettes. 

 

https://the-raceplace.com/collections/files-stones/products/ceramic-stone

http://www.tognar.com/arkansas-stone-translucent/

 

 

This is the stone I use for final polish and knocking off hanging burr.

 

  • The TRANSLUCENT Arkansas stone is ultrafine for the ultimate edge polish.
  • We offer these premium Arkansas stones for the finest, most precise edge honing and finishing results. 
  • Extracted from quarries in the Ouachita Mountains of Arkansas.
  • Stones are cut by circular diamond saws from Novaculite blocks (a naturally-occurring 99.9% pure silica sedimentary rock) then lapped smooth and flat on silicon carbide grinding machines. 
  • The result is a unique crystal structure that enables it to finely cut, hone and polish steel better than any manmade bonded abrasive stones (including ceramic, aluminum oxide, silicon carbide or diamond).
  • 3" x 1" x 1/4" can be used in conjunction with most base and side edge bevel guides to precisely maintain your desired bevel angles. 
  • Comes in a sturdy leather pouch with our Tögnar logo.


I saw a saw saw in Arkansas that could out saw any saw you ever saw saw.  If you ever saw a saw saw that could out saw the saw i saw saw in Arkansas I'd like to see the saw you saw saw.      Well, that's good.  That said 1200 ceramic will do the same tricks.  Take care AtomicMan

post #86 of 86

Ghost, Sibhusky are of course right, you will notice and appreciate a good tune and the proper wax.   But, you have a point too.  Just for the record I will hot wax my ski's usually every three days of skiing or more often if I have to change wax due to temperatures or what I will be doing.

 

When I go on  trips I will carry the following and apply:

 

jet Fuel brand paste wax, states on plastic jar, "Extremely high octane nitro-laced formula".  Directions say:  "For superior speed and durability in all snow conditions, apply a thin layer of wax ovr the entire warm, dry base.  Allow to dry 2-3 minutes and buff in with something from your buddys bag."

 

Come in a green jar and I like better than F4 as it lasts longer.

 

Simple, easy and it works.  Does it work as well as a good tune and hot wax, NO and it won't last as long either but in your case it may work for you.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs