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Above the fall line: flatten and drift on old edges VS tip onto new edges

post #1 of 65
Thread Starter 

Anyone interested in discussing the differences between these two?

 

--the differing results when doing each

--situations when one is better than the other

--anything else applicable to the topic?

 

--instructors, are you interested in telling everyone when you teach one and when you teach the other?

post #2 of 65

Without thinking about this more then the time it takes to read then type, other then the duration of time spent moving across the skis, is there a difference?

post #3 of 65
The answer is simple. Slipping on uphill edges has a few but only a few applications. The transition to the downhill edges is often a point of contention where rushing to establish that new edge becomes an objective. Need gets thrown out the window when you do that.
post #4 of 65

Use the latter, especially on steep and/or icy snow, and you won't do the former again.

post #5 of 65

Hmmm...

Flatten and drift on old edges?
Would cause the ski to slip, and depending on among other thingsfore/aft balance it will probably cause the skis to oversteer more across the hill in the direction of the old turn? Could be good for more getting the skis more across the hill at end of the turn??? Completing the turn more with the skis but not with the COM? Reducing speed? But if done for too long it would kill the movement into the new turn and making it as akward as starting a turn from a traverse.

Or are since you say top of turn are you thinking of flatten and slightly onto new edge and delay further tipping ( but doing it slowly continuously), vs tipping fast from the start?
Would cause the ski to slip, and depending on among other things fore/aft balance it will probably cause the skis to oversteer more down the hill in the direction of the new turn? Could be good for tightening the radius as you get more turning force later in the turn when the edges engage more later  and then with greater steering angle,  but probably larger turning radius at the top of the turn. But overdone it would make the turn a late hit and "bottom heavy".

I understand that my understanding of skiing is very fragmented and incomplete. So I'm writing more to learn than to lecture ;-) Objections appreciated.

Edited by Smear - 11/11/16 at 1:44am
post #6 of 65
Thread Starter 

Clarification:

 

case one:

There are turns in which the skier "flattens" the skis between turns and allows them to "drift" into the fall line.  Or the skier flattens them and then uses rotary muscle power to help the skis turn to point down the fall line.  In this case, the skier has "flattened" the skis to almost flat, or maybe really really flat, but those skis are not tipped onto new, downhill edges yet.  The skis move ahead and downhill along a curved path as the tips turn to point downhill.  This is slippy turning of the skis to point downhill at the top of the turn.  New edges happen at or just after the skis pass through the fall line.

 

case two:

There are turns in which the skier tips the skis onto new downhill edges between turns.  They grip the snow with their downhill edges, bend, and turn to point down the fall line.  There may (but may not) be some minimal tail slippage above the fall line, but the major turning force is from the gripping-bending skis, not from the whole ski slipping with "tips seeking fall line."

post #7 of 65

The decision rests on only one thing. Current or impending velocity. 

post #8 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

case one:

There are turns in which the skier "flattens" the skis between turns and allows them to "drift" into the fall line.  Or the skier flattens them and then uses rotary muscle power to help the skis turn to point down the fall line.  In this case, the skier has "flattened" the skis to almost flat, or maybe really really flat, but those skis are not tipped onto new, downhill edges yet.  The skis move ahead and downhill along a curved path as the tips turn to point downhill.  This is slippy turning of the skis to point downhill at the top of the turn.  New edges happen at or just after the skis pass through the fall line.

 


OK, now i see what you mean. Skis are rotating into the new turn but still on their old edges. New edges does not happen before at or after the fall line.

Can see that happening and being a useful strategy for skiers at all levels. It's just a question of steepness. Can you imagine being on your new edges long before the fall line when skiing a 55 degree slope ;)

Oversteering is not the cause of skis rotation into the new turn since the effect would be opposite (?). Skis rotate because of other effects. 

post #9 of 65
Geometry defines edge angles at all point in a turn. The flattening of the skis seem overstated in duration. If we transition to a new edge after the fall line no inclination, or angulation would be present prior to that point. Other than in a straight run that is not a likely thing. Nor is there a lingering on the old edges. That transition and edge change isn't immediate either. Again it seems overstated as well as impractical.
post #10 of 65

I don''t know the answer to the question, and because I am literal, I don't understand it.  Can I assume that you mean "before" the fall line not "above"

the fall line.  There is no above in my mind with respect to the fall line.  But this is why I am here.  For instance are you describing the difference between a "Basic Parallel" turn and a "Performance or Dynamic Parallel"?  (Two other names which are entirely devoid of description and, thus, entirely devoid of meaning to me. I have learned that the first is a skidded turn with the skis parallel and the second is a carved turn with the skis parallel.)

 

I think the answer is in Rick Schnellmann's Transitions Ski Instruction DVD  which I have seen a little of and which I am ordering.

post #11 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Hodgson View Post
 

I don''t know the answer to the question, and because I am literal, I don't understand it.  Can I assume that you mean "before" the fall line not "above"

the fall line.  There is no above in my mind with respect to the fall line.  But this is why I am here.  For instance are you describing the difference between a "Basic Parallel" turn and a "Performance or Dynamic Parallel"?  (Two other names which are entirely devoid of description and, thus, entirely devoid of meaning to me. I have learned that the first is a skidded turn with the skis parallel and the second is a carved turn with the skis parallel.)

 

I think the answer is in Rick Schnellmann's Transitions Ski Instruction DVD  which I have seen a little of and which I am ordering.

 

Tim, if you think more "literally" I think you will really like Rick's stuff. Of his many approaches to teaching, one of the highlights is his drill mastery coaching. Good drills require very little conceptualization, because, "technically", drills are where the rubber of learning meets the road of all that is actual.

 

This thread seems reminiscent of the "tips seeking the fall line" thread or maybe "skid control at the top of the turn" or something like that. All three threads speak "speed control" to me.

post #12 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

case one:

There are turns in which the skier "flattens" the skis between turns and allows them to "drift" into the fall line.  Or the skier flattens them and then uses rotary muscle power to help the skis turn to point down the fall line.  In this case, the skier has "flattened" the skis to almost flat, or maybe really really flat, but those skis are not tipped onto new, downhill edges yet.  The skis move ahead and downhill along a curved path as the tips turn to point downhill.  This is slippy turning of the skis to point downhill at the top of the turn.  New edges happen at or just after the skis pass through the fall line.

 

Was thinking of jump turns on very steep terrain in the last post, but doing pivot slips even on gentle terrain would also match your description. Edges does not exchange before the fall line in a pivot slip.

If you combine pivot slip in the first half of the turn, and then engage the edges enough to actually move you on a curved path after the falline and edge exchange, then you will have a useful turn using this movement pattern. And then you would have to flatten before going into the top half of the pivot slip again. Hurray :)

 

.

.

.

.

.

 

No, I love pivot slips. Really. But not as a model for the top half of a turn ;) 

post #13 of 65
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Hodgson View Post
 

I don''t know the answer to the question, and because I am literal, I don't understand it.  Can I assume that you mean "before" the fall line not "above"

the fall line.  There is no above in my mind with respect to the fall line.  But this is why I am here.  For instance are you describing the difference between a "Basic Parallel" turn and a "Performance or Dynamic Parallel"?  (Two other names which are entirely devoid of description and, thus, entirely devoid of meaning to me. I have learned that the first is a skidded turn with the skis parallel and the second is a carved turn with the skis parallel.)

 

I think the answer is in Rick Schnellmann's Transitions Ski Instruction DVD  which I have seen a little of and which I am ordering.

above = before.

It depends on whether you are seeing the turn in time (before) or in space (above).
Round turns have a top half and a bottom half, the top being closer to the sky and the bottom half being closer to the parking lot, the divider being approximately when the skis point down the fall line.

Round turns have a first half and a second half, the first half happening before the skis point down the fall line ;).

post #14 of 65
If you are talking about what I think you are, the first option is still switching to new edges but staying flat enough that they don't hook up. Otherwise you are asking to catch an edge on the sidewall (rather than the base) and bad things will follow.

If that is not it, I don't understand the question.
post #15 of 65
For me the difference is choosing one or two footed releases.
post #16 of 65

Here is the conundrum, Both examples are a bit extreme and perhaps a bit inaccurate. I suspect from what I read in the first post is we are talking about middle ground where edge purchase is seen as the primary source of lateral accelerating forces verses allowing Gravity to act as that primary lateral accelerating force. But who really knows what LF was imagining when she started this thread.

 

What I am going to assume is this is a question about the difference between turn entries and patience turns and upside down turn entries are the examples being discussed. 
 

  • Imagine the turn type that would be produced by the very late tipping and edge engagement. No inclination, or angulation are implied with the parameter of remaining on the uphill edges past the fall line. I am supposing here but what I read implied more of a patience turn entry which is incongruent with the parameter as set by LF because the edge change still does occur prior to the fall line but edge engagement is delayed until we turn out of the fall line. In other words it's a timing issue more in the pressure control realm than an edge angle issue. Examples of this situation are a vertical corridor, or a flush followed by a big offset open gate. In free skiing maybe a narrow choke in a chute followed by a wider section where we can scrub speed, or a tree choke with a wide opening below the choke where we can scrub off some speed make sense. Horst Abraham wrote about this as linked fish hook shaped turns but even that involves edge engagement prior to the fall line as we close the radius of those turns.
  • Imagine the turn type that would be produced by the very early edge engagement. Early inclination and angulation certainly would be part of this sort of turn. Opening radius turns like comma shaped turns come to my mind. In those turns the apex is before the second third of the turn starts. The Sochi downhill featured this sort of turn and the upside down position on that 60' face was an amazing thing to witness. Pipe turns also feature this upside down position. Obviously some forward momentum of enough magnitude is necessary or the skier would simply fall head first down the hill. So greater speed is a given.

 

 

post #17 of 65

The first idea is a maneuver I would only use to maneuver my skis for some purpose the second idea is skiing.

 

fom

post #18 of 65
Varying the turn shape and thus changing our line are an integral part of skiing well. Avoiding obstacles, dealing with skier traffic, following the cut of the trail, and even terrain variations all go into line choices. That is one of the primary reasons we advocate versatility over cookie cutter turn production.
post #19 of 65

I think of this as a tactics choice versus a technique change. I don't think it should be treated as a separate technical choice--merely an choice within a turn where the skier will finish on an edged ski, release, transfer balance, and move into another turn. Staying engaged in the top of the turn can be a tough ask for many skiers on steep terrain... especially if the goal is clean carving. Sometimes it is just impractical. Allowing the skis to drift into the fall line is as simple as delaying engagement into the new turn... Hold counter, use the float from release... the light skis will drift/slide/brush/(whatever-you-want-to-call-it) until the skier is ready to roll onto the new edges. Roll when ready... be patient. The delay does create a harder/later edge set, so that is certainly a consideration in when/where/how-often to use it. It may also create a tighter turn... so there's that. 

post #20 of 65

Tactics get translated into actions and those actions are what we call technique. Changing the radius of our turns to stay on our chosen line assumes we are turning rather than straightlining. Yet the parameters as written by LF clearly state lingering on the uphill edges and an edge change after the skis leave the fall line. What maneuvers would include those parameters? Straight runs and J turns? Possibly but even those require some edge engagement in the fall line. It also begs the question of how we engage the edge. Do we simply tip the skis over without adding pressure to that contact patch? Probably not but is that pressure a passive or active thing? There is a lot left to the reader to fill in.

post #21 of 65

Tactics should not dictate technique. Rather, the other way around should be true: technique opens up tactical options that can be employed. A skier cannot employ the tactic that they desire if the base technique (or set of movements if you prefer) is not there to support it. This is applies to gates, bumps, all mountain skiing, etc. If a coach/instructor/skier does not possess a strong technical base then everything looks like a tactical solution. 

post #22 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

Tactics should not dictate technique. Rather, the other way around should be true: technique opens up tactical options that can be employed. A skier cannot employ the tactic that they desire if the base technique (or set of movements if you prefer) is not there to support it. This is applies to gates, bumps, all mountain skiing, etc. If a coach/instructor/skier does not possess a strong technical base then everything looks like a tactical solution. 

Well said!!!!!!!!!  YM

post #23 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Hodgson View Post
 

I don't know the answer to the question, and because I am literal, I don't understand it.  Can I assume that you mean "before" the fall line not "above"

the fall line.  There is no above in my mind with respect to the fall line.

 

The "fall line" is whenever the skis are pointing straight down - roughly the middle of the C turn, apex etc.

 

Because of the elevation, "before" is literally "above" the "fall line" i.e. above the place in the turn where the skis are pointing straight down.

 

Is this discussion about stivots? I don't quite follow the part where we're sliding on the old edges? That's a little weird following a carved turn, because to not catch an edge and fall, it means we'd have turned the skis across the direction of travel, i.e. pointing basically "up the slope"?

 

post #24 of 65
How do I move to create a specific result. How do I move to create a different result.
post #25 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

The "fall line" is whenever the skis are pointing straight down - roughly the middle of the C turn, apex etc.

 

Because of the elevation, "before" is literally "above" the "fall line" i.e. above the place in the turn where the skis are pointing straight down.

 

Is this discussion about stivots? I don't quite follow the part where we're sliding on the old edges? That's a little weird following a carved turn, because to not catch an edge and fall, it means we'd have turned the skis across the direction of travel, i.e. pointing basically "up the slope"?

 

Yes, not conceptual but rather literal so he should get it regardless.

 

The sliding on old edges confused me a bit too until I realized she may be talking about skidding through the release.

post #26 of 65

Hey LF and razie:  I just have never before heard of the Fall Line described in reference to the turn.  I have always understood it and explain it to my students in reference to the terrain (regardless of turn) like Bob Barnes below:

 

Fall Line
“straight downhill” from any given point on the slope. A common misconception is that the fall line is the path a ball would take as it rolls down the hill. Consider that if, for example, you were to roll a ball down the side of a half pipe--when it reached the other side, it would actually go uphill for a bit--hardly following the fall line. A ball rolling down a mountain will glide up and over moguls, banking turns on the sides of gulleys, and so on. The path of the ball is sometimes called the "Dynamic Fall Line" (see above) and it is the same as the actual fall line only at the moment the ball is released from a stop (except on a perfectly flat, tilted plane with an unchanging fall line). At all other times, the ball's path is influenced by the fall line, but also by its own momentum.

 

I never considered the following before.  Interesting take:

 

Dynamic Fall Line
the path a rolling ball would follow down the ski slope from a given point--a function of the angle of the hill at any point and the momentum of the ball. Often confused with the "actual" fall line, which is simply "straight downhill" from a given point, the terms describe different things. Clearly, if you were to roll a ball across the slope, it would not roll in the direction of the fall line at first--by definition--but it would "seek" the fall line as it arcs down the hill. As it continues down the hill, it may actually go uphill at times--opposite the direction of the fall line--as it rolls up and over moguls and small hills and gulleys. 

 

So, picking a nit here, and given my lack of ability to be anything but literal, it is impossible to be "above the fall line" unless you are standing on the the peak of the mountain.  Now you know why I am often confused by non-descriptive terms such as "Basic Parallel" and "Performance or Dynamic Parallel" and any similarly stupidly named ski turns.  I.e.,Short Swing, etc. WTH?  That is why I have to date unsuccessfully argued for PSIA National to pay Bob Barnes to write a Complete Encyclopedia/Glossary of Skiing on the Members-Only part of the PSIA National "Community" website.


Edited by Tim Hodgson - 11/13/16 at 11:06am
post #27 of 65

Thumbs Up agree, a lot of terminology is weird.

 

The "fall line" as used in relation to the timing of the turn is short for "when the skis are pointing down the fall line" I guess or "you're in the fall line"...

 

There's also the "rise line" :eek and no, it doesn't refer to when the skis are pointing up the slope - but when the skis are exactly above the gate :confused although they normally still point laterally across the slope.

 

yeah... :( 

 

p.s. the fall line differs often a lot throughout a run. You'll hear in racing about a "fall away" as well, when the slope "falls away" from the gate, i.e. more lateral into the direction of travel... that's when you see some racers boot out in a turn ;) similar to "an off camber turn" in motorsports - very important to figure out  the right line at inspection time.

 

:ski 

post #28 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

How do I move to create a specific result. How do I move to create a different result.

Exactly!

 

I think Heluva's point was that it depends on what moves you have.

 

Winter is coming!

post #29 of 65
Thread Starter 

Originally Posted by razie View Post

The "fall line" is whenever the skis are pointing straight down - roughly the middle of the C turn, apex etc.  Yep.

 

Because of the elevation, "before" is literally "above" the "fall line" i.e. above the place in the turn where the skis are pointing straight down.  Yep.

 

Is this discussion about stivots?  I didn't intend it to be.  I don't quite follow the part where we're sliding on the old edges? That's a little weird following a carved turn, because to not catch an edge and fall, it means we'd have turned the skis across the direction of travel, i.e. pointing basically "up the slope"?

 

Here's Bode doing a stivot, break-down of images provided by Ron LeMaster:

Note that as he approaches the gate doing this stivot, he's on the new turn's edges, not his old edges.  

First 4 frames, old edges.  Last 2 frames, new edges.

He pivoted the skis aggressively as he flipped them onto their new edges, and at the end is scraping his way sideways before establishing a carve.  

Stivots are a "drift" (I guess you could call it that) on new edges.  Better yet, we could call a stivot a sideways hockey-stop without the stop,

followed by a miraculous edge engagement (not pictured) as the skier zooms away, carving the second half of the turn.

===============================================================================================================

 

My idea for the first of the two turn entries in the thread title was drifting through the top half of the turn - on mostly "flattened" edges - waiting for

the forces under play (whatever they be) to turn the skis to point down the fall line.  This is how the top half of a drifted C-shaped turn happens.  

"Tips seek the fall line" is an important part of it.  Thus bow-ties in the beginner corral.

 

Given the resistance of people here talking about the drift happening on old edges, here's my thinking.  

--If a ski's shovel turns to point downhill, slipping across the surface of the snow, with the pivot point under the foot's arch,

--then that shovel needs to be on its old uphill edge.

--Otherwise, the ski edge will catch in the snow below it and face-plant will happen.  

 

--If, however, a drifted turn entry happens with the tail slipping outward, and with the pivot point being somewhere in front of the foot...

--then the tail needs to be on its new edges to avoid catching in the snow as it slips across its surface.  

--If this is the way a drifted turn entry is usually done, then we probably need to stop saying "tips seek the fall line" and start saying "tails drift outward."

===============================================================================================================

 

So how do people understand a drifted turn entry?  Maybe no one pays much attention to which edge is slightly lifted during a drifted turn entry,

so maybe all this business of which edge the top half of a drifted entry happens on is moot.

Maybe we do pay attention to where the pivot point is, though.  Is it under the arch, with the tip slipping downhill across the snow,

or is it in front of the foot, with the tail slipping outward?

Maybe we don't care about this either, and maybe it makes very little difference in how effectively we turn in real time.  

===============================================================================================================

 

Whichever it is, the real reason I started this thread was to hear a discussion of WHEN anyone wants to do a drifted turn entry instead of a carved one.

So have at it, if you like.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 11/13/16 at 4:26pm
post #30 of 65
Without really reading through previous responses yet, I'll say l like this topic LF.
My initial reaction is that at least in advanced skiing, a primary focus for me is high edge angles early! It is when I engage, get pressure & how I regulate/manage it that changes situationally.

Not sure how you "flatten & drift" on the old edges? Yes, there are times I flatten to drift but I am still favoring the new edges... or am I reading it wrong th_dunno-1[1].gif
I can pressure the new ski before changing edges but I don't think I'll be drifting sideways.
Edited by 4ster - 11/13/16 at 4:41pm
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