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MA request (split off from instructor videos thread) - Page 5

post #121 of 210

Anybody pm NCSki to see if he or she is alright after hurricane Matthew and the subsequent flooding?

post #122 of 210
My guess is that it's not hurricane Matthew that's keeping him away, but instead the hurricane of tone deaf MA hurled his way by the bruised instructor ego after NCski's implication that these instructors are less than perfect, because of a lack of rigor found in some other disciplines.
post #123 of 210

 

 

                                        

Fischer Carve

 

A sharper edit than before

 

Symmetrical is more of a chore

 

Here is something less of a snore

 

Allow me to be real frank and blunt

 

Having no patience for tip toe stunt

 

MA hindered in shroud of mystery

 

Likes that rarely makes history

 

A collection of movements

 

Self styled improvements

 

The shortcut feels right

 

A video I may I might

 

As it’s my own right

 

To share this plight

 

With n without your

 

Sweetness or spite

 

Disappear as I might

 

I won’t forget this site

 

For I know they’re right

 

And never meant to slight

 

I shan’t rule out a little fight

 

Desire to remodel in a blister

 

Held back in a riddle & twister

 

A futile attempt at clever reality

Only met with a lever of banality

 

This is your movements analysis

 

That’s worse than  kidney dialysis

 

Please note my penchant for skis

 

 

                                                                                                                               

 

                                                    


Edited by Rich666 - 10/23/16 at 5:31pm
post #124 of 210

LF. How long would it take you to teach this dude how to ski?

 

post #125 of 210

OMG!

post #126 of 210

 Dude's got some skills!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek

 

  zenny

post #127 of 210

That Dude makes learning how to ski look like, in comparison, taking a nap.

post #128 of 210
Thread Starter 

Before I jump into this relatively long response.  I know that I have much work to do to improve my skiing.  I routinely experiment with ideas and am flexible and open to applying suggestions from credible sources. Despite the flattering remarks about “advanced” skiing, I still think “intermediate” is a more appropriate designation.

 

I find myself in a tough situation because clearly I am not an advanced nor expert skier, but I would consider myself to be very tuned kinesthetically.  Even though I am at the lower levels of refinement with respect to movement on skis while learning and experiencing the range of different inputs(movements) and resulting outputs, I am still quite aware of the movements that I am making, so I expect that any movement analysis demonstrates that the analyst is actually seeing the movements I am making.  I have PMed a few of the participants in this thread, but I would like to let everyone know that I appreciate the contributions to this thread that addressed my MA request even if the analysis lacked the terminology I was seeking.  It is very interesting to read different points of view and different expectations with respect to skiing MA.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

First let's set the playing field.  In the videos you submitted IMO your skis are actively carving even though you are not completing your turns and actually truncating them in the second vid. To me, the fact that you can manipulate your skis to enter an active carving situation classifies you as more advanced than intermediate.   

 

For the purposes of this post, let's stay focused on carved turns vs rotated (skidded) turns. 

 

As a carved turn develops, The force against which we balance migrates from gravitational to centripetal. Whether you understand it or not, your technique acknowledges this by your COM moving to the inside of the turn.  The issue is, there are multiple ways one can get their COM to the inside. Yours is to basically "hip dump" and since your are successful in this, the movement pattern IMO is engrained. 

 

Among the problems with hip dumping is that it takes your inside ski out of play because the pelvic region is more monolithic than independent.  While your outside leg is dealing with the resulting pressure of centripetal force, it is the inside leg that leads you completion of the turn.   My experience is that it is very difficult to get students to change from hip inclination to a edging pattern of  angulation starting from the bottom up .  Is is a huge comfort zone impact. 

 

With respect to completing my turns, you are right, I am not completing them as much as I would like to.  If one watches for the movement(is it extension, flexion, medial or lateral rotation, abduction or adduction?) of the knee and acetabulofemoral (of the outside leg) joints toward the end of a turn, one will see that this movement causes a turn to end and initiates the next turn.  In the videos I’ve posted, I am doing this movement too early, and as such, my turns are not completed. 

I am not pushing or directing my COM to the inside.  My feet follow the path that my skis take.  As that happens, I allow my knee and acetabulofemoral(this word is going to come up a lot.  Be ready!) joint to extend so that the ski maintains contact with the snow.  My pelvis is where it is as a result not as a cause.  I am intentionally using other movements with the aim of keeping the pelvis unified with the torso and moving independently of the legs.  Later in this post(in my responses to Rich666 and zentune), I will elaborate on these independent movements of the left and right knee and acetabulofemoral joint.  In keeping the pelvis as part of the “upper body” I have more mass available for balancing purposes over the outside ski, and, the “hinge” point separating the upper and lower body is now closer to the feet.

 

 

 

I am still not quite sure how one “dumps ones hip”, but I can tell you, and if you step through the video frame by frame, that I am not pushing my hip down, or in, or over, or however one were to do that.  My hip is where it is as a result of the longer path my skis trace relative to the path of my torso.  My, at times approximately 37 degrees, abduction/adduction of acetabulofemoral joints to stay balanced, as described earlier, actually “lifts” my hip, preventing it from dropping closer to the snow surface.  That movement is purely a response to the angle of my skis, and subsequently my legs, to the snow.   That movement is not being used to cause my skis to go up on edge or to increase edge angle.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
So to say "I will not take any advice from anyone unless they can prove to me that they are worthy.  To prove this they need to see and explain something to me that I already know, from this fairly poor media.  I've lived in this body and felt this hundreds of times, you get just this video to prove yourself."
 
Silly if you ask me.  That's not what MA is.  Sorry man, just a weird and unrealistic approach to getting help.  Oh that's right you don't even want feedback, you just want to see who can see something that you know.

 

Analysis and identification is MA.  By definition.  Movement Analysis.  

 

Exactly.  I want “analysis and identification.”  Only when that is established can the discussion move to suggestions for change, i.e. giving me help/suggestions for improvement.

 

And yes, the video isn’t great, but it’s good enough to see the movements I expect anyone who would give me suggestions for improvement to be able to see.  The experts here have two ways to show the rest of us their expertise: 1) put up video of yourself and 2)accurately analyze video of others.

Some visitors to this forum may be satisfied to take it on faith that someone claiming to be an expert is so just because s/he says s/he is or because a crowd of faithful followers says so.  That’s not good enough for me.  Once I reached a certain age, I learned that it was just as important for me to “audition” my would-be instructors as it was for them to audition me.  I’m wary of those giving instruction who appear to be threatened by scrutiny.

 

move·ment

/ˈmo͞ovmənt/

noun

an act of changing physical location or position or of having this changed.

"a slight movement of the upper body”

 

a·nal·y·sis

/əˈnaləsəs/

noun

detailed examination of the elements or structure of something, typically as a basis for discussion or interpretation.

 

“An examination of the elements or structure of something, typically as a basis  for discussion or interpretation.”

 

I want this “basis for discussion” to be articulated clearly before moving on to “discussion or interpretation”.  So far, either the responses have not been an accurate(although Razie is hitting some points quite well, I did not see his post until I had already written this post) “examination of the elements or structure” of the skiing provided in the video or the responses have been a jump directly to “discussion or interpretation” without first establishing a basis for the discussion, i.e. the analysis of the movements.  When the main movement that is responsible for getting my skis to the new edges has not yet been mentioned(somehow some of you are not seeing how my pelvis is getting where it gets and mistakenly think that I’m using my “hips to try and edge”), I would say that the analysis is missing something quite important.  Until that big missing chunk of the analysis is articulated, further discussion, while entertaining, is not nearly as productive as it could be with that big missing piece of analysis.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

You are lifting your new inside shoulder at the start of every turn. 

 

What are your goals for your skiing?

The shoulders and arms have not been receiving much if any attention, so the movements are mostly just minimized and hopefully not too wild.  While I was skiing, the pole popping up after touching the snow was quite noticeable.  I figured it was just a timing/placement issue that I will eventually focus on.  I did a lot of drilling without poles, too.  Also, you can see that I hold my right arm at a position that is not symmetrical to the left due to the fractured right clavicle.

 

My goal is to constantly improve my skiing; however, I will not blindly take advice from anyone blind to one of the very obvious movements I am making.  I am open to suggestions in movement changes, sequencing, effort, timing.  If given a drill, I would like to know what the focus is, what the movements are, and what the intended effect of the drill is.

 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OnSnow View Post
 

This was my Ah Ha moment right here. This statement might give a clue to why YOU are resisting the type of feedback you are receiving. I see that you are conducting an interview to see whose MA you will accept as accurate or fitting your learning style. You seem to be asking for something that isn't a part of the ski teaching culture yet you are demanding it as a prerequisite. It appears that you are using your seemingly vast dance expertise to drive your choices for your ski advancement. Dance is not Ski. The things that define good dance are not what defines good skiing. In dance you must move your body in a certain way. In skiing you must make you skis do what they need to do. The way we solve that is not to achieve a "final form" but to look more at larger portions of the body to affect (or is that effect) change to the ski in its relation to the snow at any given instant.

 

To goals of skiing and dance are different...perhaps the path to improvement are different as well.

 

I am not looking for someone whose MA “fits” my learning style.  As I’ve already mentioned, I am able to learn in various ways, as I’m sure most of us are.  I have already stated that for the purposes of this particular MA thread,  I am looking for someone who can actually see what movements I am making and can speak in precise anatomical terms.  I certainly can’t remember every anatomical term I’ve learned and of course I don’t know everything there is to know about anatomy, but it’s 2016, if you can’t remember a basic term: http://lmgtfy.com

Not a single person has mentioned the movement in the lower body that I make that begins at the end of one turn and is glaringly obvious(in several instances) as I begin the next turn.  Also, the same movement is easy to see continuing part way through some of the turns.  Sometimes the obviousness goes as far as the fall-line.

 

Of course dancing and skiing are obviously not the same.   What is the same is that both require us to move our bodies and parts of our bodies relative to other body parts and the environment in certain sequences, rates,  efforts, directions, etc.   You said “In dance you must move your body in a certain way.  In skiing you must make you[sic] skis do what they need to do”  How do we make our skis do what they need to do?  We must move our body in a certain way!  I am not trying to achieve a “form” when I ski.  I am attempting to make certain movements at certain rates to allow/coax the skis onto edge, continuing those movements so the skis will go further onto edge, and then using movements to reduce edge angle and release the turn.  At the same time, I make other movements in order to maintain balance on the edge of the ski(s).  Gradually increasing and decreasing these other movements as needed to maintain balance.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexSkier View Post
 

Not sure it is possible to get a precise answer from an outside observer with the information (video) presented.  This is probably why the answers you are getting are 'vague' in your opinion.

 

Ski clothes are baggy.

Image resolution is not great.

 

Yes, I admit that the resolution is not great; however, not a single person has mentioned a most obvious movement that is quite easy to see even in the clothes I am wearing at the given video resolution.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

 

 

Please pardon the reluctance of instructors who are familiar with the other movement based discipline you are following. The history of that discipline has not been friendly to instructors trained under other systems. Normally, people who are following that discipline get their online improvement advice from a different forum. The analogy is a lesson I learned from my old day job. There were certain companies that would send us Requests For Proposal that we would never respond to because we had learned that they were required to do the work in house no matter what price we bid and that they were attempting to use our bids to save on their own internal project costs. It is my sincere hope that you are honestly seeking a different opinion, but that's still not clear yet. 

 

Erick Hawkins died more than 20 years ago, and though he was born in Colorado, I have no idea what his connection to skiing may have been.  And yes, I participate in modern dance forums, but I’m not going there for ski advice.

 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

Here, I would ask you to refine your request more so that it would lessen the amount of work being requested. 

 

What is the main movement that I make that gets my skis to the new edges that begins at the end of one turn, carries through the transition between turns, and continues into the beginning of(sometimes halfway through) the next turn?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

Yes. The exacerbated hip socket-to-femur movement we see in RM's turns (femur wagging rather than rotation) is there to isolate that heightened state of movement from the knee down (in this turn type) from a disciplined and static stability of the pelvis, waist and torso. This exacerbation of hip movement is now being retranslated by NCski as an erroneously dominant and leading movement. 

I believe that you are referring to the closed-chain femoral abduction at the acetabulofemoral joint of the outside leg and the mostly (I say mostly because I have not refined this to be reliably open-chain whenever I want, but much of the time it is) open-chain* femoral adduction at the acetabulofemoral joint of the inside  leg.  I’m glad that you see this, but these movements are not causing the skis to go onto edge.  They are movements done to maintain balance during the turn.  These movements help keep the torso relatively laterally upright which keeps balance to the inside edge of the outside ski.  If I didn’t make these movements, then I would need to rely solely on lateral flexion of the spine, or I would need to sacrifice balance and agility by widening my base in order to prevent myself from falling over to the inside of the turn.  In addition to the approximately 37 degrees of femoral abduction/adduction as I reach the point of my max edge angle in a few turns, I also use a few degrees of lateral flexion of the spine. 

 

The red line approximately connects my iliac crests which is basically parallel to a line that could be drawn between the femoral heads.

The approximately 53 degree angle between that red line and the approximate line of my leg represents approximately 37 degrees of adduction from neutral.  (please allow a few degrees error)

I try to get as much of the balancing effect to occur via abduction/adduction at the acetabulofemoral joint as possible, but I eventually reach the end of my ROM and need to add lateral spinal flexion.  I would like to mention that I am not aiming for a certain form, shape, or position.  I use more or less of these movements to maintain balance.  The range and rate are in response to balancing needs.  The resulting “form” is simply whatever it happens to be.  Not once have I tried to attain a certain “look” or “form” in these videos. (I save that for when I’m in the air after jumping off of something)   Of course, I will be constantly refining these movements to tune their rate, range, timing, etc.

 

*This (the bit about “open-chain”) is a huge hint as to a movement that seems to have eluded everyone.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

I see you levering the hips across to tip the skis, and then adding some foot level inversion/eversion later. This is causing some whole body rotation (counter rotation) around the ankles and more specifically the stj, but not a huge amount, and also the folding at the waist (because of aftness). I agree with the others that have suggested starting movements much further down the chain; at the feet/ankles, then the legs, and THEN the hips (actually the pelvis) can move inside. Such will also enable/facilitate much better fore/act control via sliding the foot/feet back and forth underneath your cm, and will aid in stacking underload, and indeed you will be able to develop more load. Right now you are circumventing this process and rushing to high angles...

zenny

Except when I make a mistake, the skis begin to move toward their new edges while my pelvis is still inside the old turn.  There is something else causing my skis to “tip” to the new edges.  The pelvis then follows.  It generally gets pulled into the new turn.  By “counter rotation”, are you referring to the closed-chain medial rotation of the acetabulofemoral joint of the outside leg and the open-chain lateral rotation of the acetabulofemoral joint of the inside leg as the turn develops?  If so, this is caused by me making these movements simultaneously with the abduction/adductions movements I described earlier in my reply to Rich666.  “Levering the hips across to tip the skis, and then adding some foot inversion/eversion later” isn’t causing these rotational movements of the femurs in the acetabulum. I am making them intentionally in response to where my skis are going and the path that they are taking relative to my center of mass.

 

Yes, I am “folding” at the waist.  I am well aware of just how aft I am in these videos.  (I have been assured that my knee injury plays a big role in that) It was apparent when I was skiing, so I wasn’t the least bit surprised to see it on video.  The video looked almost exactly as I thought it would, and the upper body looks as I had expected. I haven’t had much focussed work on the role of the shoulders and arms. The thing that really stood out that did not match my expectations was the way the snow sprays from the entire length of the bottom of the ski.  This is something I almost never see when I watch other skiers at my home mountain.

 

 

Every now and then I employ some foot inversion, but it is rare, and it is much later and much less than it probably should be.  It is obvious to me, from a biomechanics standpoint, that it is very effective in getting the skis to their new edges, but it is one movement that, while easy for me to do barefoot, is more difficult for me to isolate while wearing skis and boots.  I need to work on consistently using foot inversion of what will become the new inside foot while I am also using the glaringly obvious movement to which I keep annoyingly referring in this lengthy post.  I am not sure what you mean about “rushing to high angles”.  I am isolating certain movements and making other movements at a rate and degree required to balance the effect of those movement, but whatever angles that happen are just happening.  I’m not trying to reach high angles, I am avoiding eversion of the outside foot as much as possible.  I am avoiding closed-chain adduction and medial rotation of the outside femur, and I’m avoiding extending the the  outside knee and acetabulofemoral joint at a rate and effort that results in pushing off of that ski.  I try to extend only as much as necessary to maintain contact with the snow.  

 

I have learned that the more rapidly I make the “obvious movement”, the more quickly the skis will come up on edge, and if I slow the “obvious movement” the skis take longer to come on edge.  As soon as the skis are on their new edges they take about half of the turn to reach max angle and about the other half to return to flat.  I’m not claiming to have any great level of refinement here. Maybe as I get more experience, I’ll be able to reach any angle I want earlier or later as I choose.

I also have experimented with trying to prevent, via foot inversion and slight acetabulofemoral abduction, the new outside ski from coming onto edge while simultaneously performing the “obvious movement” coupled with inside foot inversion.  I’ve noticed that this prevents/delays the inside edge of the outside ski from engaging, and instead, the full length of the new outside ski drifts a bit before the edge engages.  I imagine that I could modulate this effect with practice.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

There's many ways to describe a skiing... systems and frameworks of reference whatnot. Skills etc.

 

If you prefer movements in planes of motion.

 

In the vertical plane, you're flexing to release, sure. A lot. And that allows you to create big angles quickly. The extensions into the new turn are reasonably timed, at times fudged up by the energy of the release. That's pretty advanced skiing there, usually flexing doesn't come easy.

 

One thing that's missing in the vertical plane is an independence of flexing and extending. Now you flex/extend both - but that's the turn shape you do. You'll need to take your time.

 

In the lateral plane, at times strong and reasonably timed angulation, cb. Much better and consistent in the second video.

 

But it seems to me that you're not really tipping the skis on edge, it's more like edging is a result of geometry than specific tipping or edging movements, a result of the skis going to the side while the hips are low.

 

It's not like you ignore tipping altogether, but you're using the entire body. That's why I pasted those specific videos in the other thread, focused on edging from the feet and separation.

 

In the rotational plane, some ca. The turns are forced as you seem to lack some balance on one foot. I'd need to see some different turn shapes, for that. Much better in the second video, great reactions, athleticism and overall balance, but slow it down, round out the turn and spend more time on one foot.

 

Fore/aft is not that important right now, although you are back and should pull the boots back more underneath the hips in transition, especially as you're flexing so much. That's part of the reason they jump out quickly and you have trouble controlling the speed.

 

In the speed plane (yeah, I made that up ;)) you're going way too fast! And in the time dimension, you're struggling with the timing and separation of movements, because everything happens fast and energetic. You need to slow down and start from the top: isolate every movement and work on it, starting with tipping, i.e. edging from the feet and ankles - either the disciplined inside foot version I think you know of, or some other form, but insist on edging from the feet and ankles. Upper body is secondary.

 

By the looks of it, it won't take you much to put them back together.

 

It is beneficial if you focus on the discipline of tipping and on the inside foot, as you can then connect it to the release, to the untipping at the release, resulting in one flowing movement more like the video I posted. Especially as you're already flexing so much.

 

Which is the other thing: don't release with a trampoline, slow it down and release with untipping. Now you're releasing with the hips more or less.

 

Try to do the turn shape in the first video I posted in the other thread... spend more time in the turn, now it's more like what I call a wiggle (a flush in slalom). A good wiggle, at that!

 

cheers

 

Don't know if that ski is too jumpy for you - maybe get a stiffer board... you're dumping angles and CB on it and with the timing being off, it throws you all over the place. I see it's a Head but can't make out which one. Although - as you slow down and work on distributing the pressure, it may be ok.

 

By vertical plane, I assume that you are referring to the sagittal plane.  Which joints flex in “flexing to release”?  I know that my timing is all over the place.  It was quite interesting to note the different outputs resulting from small changes in input. 

 

I spend tons of time on one foot.  I find it quite fun to ski entire green (and some blue) runs on one ski.  I learned to avoid doing it under the chair in the bumps or on steeper groomers because it tends to attract attention and shouts of “show-off”.

 

Now you’ve given me some things to think about!  And you are right, there really isn’t much if any foot inversion occurring in these videos. Though, I think you still are off on what is getting my skis onto the new edges.  Regardless, your videos make the pudding worth eating.

 

Quote:
 p.s. It's good to sometimes observe some of the limitations of the classic planes of movement - for instance you can't describe independent flex/extend, as the classic approach is to look at the com height in that plane :cool it really is just a frame of reference, not an absolute system in itself.

Do you mean that it isn't possible to describe flexing one leg while extending the other?  (please correct me if I misunderstood)

flex right knee and acetabulofemoral joint(in the sagittal plane, of course) while simultaneously extending left knee and acetabulofemoral joint(also sagittally)*

 

Some isolated movements with which I’ve experimented on skis:

Assuming one is starting in a standing position, slightly flexed at both knees and both acetabulofemoral joints, with even weight distribution between feet, if one performs the bolded instructions above at a gentle rate, while gliding on skis in a narrow stance, ones skis will end up on their right(with respect to direction of travel) edges, and the skis will turn right.  Whether or not one falls over depends on the subsequent movements one may need to make to stay in balance depending on speed, etc.  

 

If one is gliding on skis in a fully upright(fully extended knee and fully extended, but not hyper-extended, acetabulofemoral joint) position and then flexes the right knee and flexes the right acetabulofemoral joint, but without changing the state of the left knee and left acetabulofemoral joint, ones skis will end up on their right edges and the skis will begin to turn right.  

 

If one is gliding on skis in a moderately flexed position and then increases flexion of the right knee and flexion of the right acetabulofemoral joint ones skis will end up on their right edges and the skis will begin to turn right.  One can also begin to extend the left knee and acetabulofemoral joint as the turn develops to allow the foot and leg to follow the ski as it travels their course.  The right knee and acetabulofemoral joint can also begin to extend at a rate independent of the left knee and acetabulofemoral joint. 

Of course, in the above examples, the skis will come onto edge more quickly if inversion of the right foot is employed simultaneously with the flexing movements described.

 

*if attempting the movements in bold on solid ground, do this starting with either all weight on left foot or shift to weight to left foot as you perform the movements otherwise you’ll fall over.

 

the ski is a borrowed Head i.sl (nonRD)

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


Rich, what has happened? I find myself agreeing with you regularly now - you are on the money these days!

At first I was confused by what the OP looks like when skiing. Very few skiers contort themselves into the position he's managed. Then we got the clue about the dance background, and it really started making sense. What I find interesting is that the bum is the moving part, rather than the ski - you noticed that he's literally moving his hips laterally to try and edge, then holding in a position. Every turn is a carefully coordinated hip-check. It almost looks like the bum has more lateral movement than the skis. The outcomes work fine on these flatter conditions on OK snow, but would be disastrous on ice or steeps.

What I would encourage in this skier is allowing pressure to build under the ski, allow edge angles to develop gradually, maintain a stable hip and core, balance on edges, and get the legs flexing/extending to develop edge angles. This change might actually only require a timing change to allow the ski design to do the hard work. I actually think he could be on the verge of attaining versatile all-mountain skiing.

OP, this was a really interesting puzzle. Thank you for posting even if you didn't get what you were looking for out of it.

Contort?  Typical acetabulofemoral ROM: Hip abduction: 30 to 50 degrees; Hip adduction: 20-30 degrees.  (from http://www.fpnotebook.com/ortho/Exam/HpRngOfMtn.htm)  I think that the max adduction I exhibited in my video was about 37 degrees.  I have confirmed this range on the floor.  That seems slightly higher than average, not contortion.  I do think that this slightly higher than average ROM will benefit me as I become a more proficient skier.

 

 

If you think that I am moving hips laterally to try and edge, your eye is being fooled by the relative movements of my feet, legs, and surrounding environment.  Also, the lack of movements to keep me from getting aft adds to this illusion. Since you say ice and steeper terrain are the test, then I am happy to report that, while I have never been on race(injected?) ice, I have been on steeper terrain with very hardpack(I hesitate to call it ice, but I’ve heard many western resort skiers call it ice) snow with no issues with respect to my use of acetabulofemoral abduction/adduction as a way of reacting to the balance requirements of higher edge angles.  In fact I find that this way of balancing really helps the edge bite and prevent the ski from sliding out even if I get bounced off of the surface.  When I land, I am immediately balanced again.  

 

In my videos: When during the turn does the ski begin to go onto edge.  At any point does the angle suddenly increase, or does the edge angle gradually progress to a higher edge angle and then decrease again?

 

So, two questions:  what is the movement that I am making to get the old inside ski to it’s new edge to become the new outside ski?(I’ve basically said what it is in this post, but not quite to point of saying something like: “It’s ulnar devation”*) When, during the turn, do you see that I am on the new inside edge of the outside ski?

 

*no, it’s obviously not ulnar deviation

 

Was an interesting puzzle?  Nobody had yet hit the nail on the head with regards to the movements that I am making, so I guess that the puzzle remains.

 

 

I notice a lot of new activity since I last visited this thread.  I can’t yet reply to all of the new posts(I will not be replying to the clowns' posts (the plural possessive is intentional)), but I do thank everyone who voiced concern for the effects of the hurricane.  Luckily, I only had to deal with minor flooding and a power outage that lasted a few days.  Others were not so lucky as I.

(I apologize for any typos and grammatical errors I may have missed)   


Edited by NCski - 11/4/16 at 11:16am
post #129 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCski View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

There's many ways to describe a skiing... systems and frameworks of reference whatnot. Skills etc.

 

If you prefer movements in planes of motion.

 

In the vertical plane, you're flexing to release, sure. A lot. And that allows you to create big angles quickly. The extensions into the new turn are reasonably timed, at times fudged up by the energy of the release. That's pretty advanced skiing there, usually flexing doesn't come easy.

 

One thing that's missing in the vertical plane is an independence of flexing and extending. Now you flex/extend both - but that's the turn shape you do. You'll need to take your time.

 

In the lateral plane, at times strong and reasonably timed angulation, cb. Much better and consistent in the second video.

 

But it seems to me that you're not really tipping the skis on edge, it's more like edging is a result of geometry than specific tipping or edging movements, a result of the skis going to the side while the hips are low.

 

It's not like you ignore tipping altogether, but you're using the entire body. That's why I pasted those specific videos in the other thread, focused on edging from the feet and separation.

 

In the rotational plane, some ca. The turns are forced as you seem to lack some balance on one foot. I'd need to see some different turn shapes, for that. Much better in the second video, great reactions, athleticism and overall balance, but slow it down, round out the turn and spend more time on one foot.

 

Fore/aft is not that important right now, although you are back and should pull the boots back more underneath the hips in transition, especially as you're flexing so much. That's part of the reason they jump out quickly and you have trouble controlling the speed.

 

In the speed plane (yeah, I made that up ;)) you're going way too fast! And in the time dimension, you're struggling with the timing and separation of movements, because everything happens fast and energetic. You need to slow down and start from the top: isolate every movement and work on it, starting with tipping, i.e. edging from the feet and ankles - either the disciplined inside foot version I think you know of, or some other form, but insist on edging from the feet and ankles. Upper body is secondary.

 

By the looks of it, it won't take you much to put them back together.

 

It is beneficial if you focus on the discipline of tipping and on the inside foot, as you can then connect it to the release, to the untipping at the release, resulting in one flowing movement more like the video I posted. Especially as you're already flexing so much.

 

Which is the other thing: don't release with a trampoline, slow it down and release with untipping. Now you're releasing with the hips more or less.

 

Try to do the turn shape in the first video I posted in the other thread... spend more time in the turn, now it's more like what I call a wiggle (a flush in slalom). A good wiggle, at that!

 

cheers

 

Don't know if that ski is too jumpy for you - maybe get a stiffer board... you're dumping angles and CB on it and with the timing being off, it throws you all over the place. I see it's a Head but can't make out which one. Although - as you slow down and work on distributing the pressure, it may be ok.

 

By vertical plane, I assume that you are referring to the sagittal plane.  Which joints flex in “flexing to release”?  I know that my timing is all over the place.  It was quite interesting to note the different outputs resulting from small changes in input. 

 

I spend tons of time on one foot.  I find it quite fun to ski entire green (and some blue) runs on one ski.  I learned to avoid doing it under the chair in the bumps or on steeper groomers because it tends to attract attention and shouts of “show-off”.

 

Now you’ve given me some things to think about!  And you are right, there really isn’t much if any foot inversion occurring. Though, I think you still are off on what is getting my skis onto the new edges.  Regardless, your videos make the pudding worth eating.

 

Quote:
 p.s. It's good to sometimes observe some of the limitations of the classic planes of movement - for instance you can't describe independent flex/extend, as the classic approach is to look at the com height in that plane :cool it really is just a frame of reference, not an absolute system in itself.

Do you mean that it isn't possible to describe flexing one leg while extending the other?  (please correct me if I misunderstood)

flex right knee and acetabulofemoral joint(in the sagittal plane, of course) while simultaneously extending left knee and acetabulofemoral joint(also sagittally)*

 

 

Oh, it's been a while...

 

Yeah, the saggital plane. I can never use those words honestly. I normally actively refuse to use vocabulary that's out of the reach of an ordinary conversation with an ordinary skier. I coach racers, from 10 year olds and up and that perhaps explains my problem with that. Besides, these movement classifications are random, as vertical movement can also occur in the frontal plane i.e. "coronal" if you prefer. I just prefer to refer to vertical movement or fore/aft movement etc and pretend I used the "planes of motion" ;)

 

Here's the more correct approach to motion, if you ask me, the planes taken ad litteram are confusing: the "axis of movement" matter more... 

 

Quote:
 
When describing anatomical motion, these planes describe the axis along which an action is performed. So by moving through the transverse plane, movement travels from head to toe. For example, if a person jumped directly up and then down, their body would be moving through the transverse plane in the coronal and sagittal planes.

 

What flexes for flexing? "The leg" as in "trying to sit down". I believe the correct description is flexing at the knee to shorten the leg, accompanied by flexing at ankle and hip, to maintain balance.

 

Yeah - in a traditional approach, the vertical movement is considered as moving the COM towards or away from the BOS, so it cannot explain independent flexing/extending. Not that we can't in every day language... we both just did :) But in a traditional planes of motion approach to describing movements in skiing, you'd be hard pressed to decipher which leg's the BOS when you flex one and extend the other!! Just having fun...

 

The edging - if you're not actively tipping the skis from the lower foot, then you're dragging them on edge with the hips... That would be standard theory, applicable to 99% of skiers... but not you... because you flex a lot, hence you're can't be dragging them on edge with the hips on top of a long leg. Rather, as you extend to the side and the hips move forward, a natural edged relationship occurs - that's why I described it as "geometrical".

 

Not important though - what matters is to get actively tipping... but: what do you say is getting your skis onto the new edges?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCski View Post

 

[...] flexing one leg while extending the other?  [...]

 

flex right knee and acetabulofemoral joint(in the sagittal plane, of course) while simultaneously extending left knee and acetabulofemoral joint(also sagittally)*

 

Some isolated movements with which I’ve experimented on skis:

Assuming one is starting in a standing position, slightly flexed at both knees and both acetabulofemoral joints, with even weight distribution between feet, if one performs the bolded instructions above at a gentle rate, while gliding on skis in a narrow stance, ones skis will end up on their right(with respect to direction of travel) edges, and the skis will turn right.  Whether or not one falls over depends on the subsequent movements one may need to make to stay in balance depending on speed, etc.  

 

If one is gliding on skis in a fully upright(fully extended knee and fully extended, but not hyper-extended, acetabulofemoral joint) position and then flexes the right knee and flexes the right acetabulofemoral joint, but without changing the state of the left knee and left acetabulofemoral joint, ones skis will end up on their right edges and the skis will begin to turn right.  

 

If one is gliding on skis in a moderately flexed position and then increases flexion of the right knee and flexion of the right acetabulofemoral joint ones skis will end up on their right edges and the skis will begin to turn right.  One can also begin to extend the left knee and acetabulofemoral joint as the turn develops to allow the foot and leg to follow the ski as it travels their course.  The right knee and acetabulofemoral joint can also begin to extend at a rate independent of the left knee and acetabulofemoral joint. 

Of course, in the above examples, the skis will come onto edge more quickly if inversion of the right foot is employed simultaneously with the flexing movements described.

 

*if attempting the movements in bold on solid ground, do this starting with either all weight on left foot or shift to weight to left foot as you perform the movements otherwise you’ll fall over.

 

 

 

TOTALLY !!

 

On my own website, I have a lot of precisely these experiments and similar. I think it is very important for skiers to go through these and understand the actual biomechanics of skiing.

 

There's a lot of stuff you can experiment with just standing up in the living room, to study flex/extend, weight shifting, narrow/wide, inversion etc

 

cheers

 

p.s. as to turn shape, I found a sample of exactly what I was recommending you do: change from a wiggle to a different turn shape - note the focus on not letting the ski "pop" but preempting that with the flex at just the right time... keyword: smooth :

 

 


Edited by razie - 11/4/16 at 11:54am
post #130 of 210
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

 

 

Yeah - in a traditional approach, the vertical movement is considered as moving the COM towards or away from the BOS, so it cannot explain independent flexing/extending. Not that we can't in every day language... we both just did :) But in a traditional planes of motion approach to describing movements in skiing, you'd be hard pressed to decipher which leg's the BOS when you flex one and extend the other!! Just having fun...

 

 

In the traditional approach, we identify the joints that are being articulated, the manner in which they are being articulated, and the planes in which these movements occur.  If one joint from the right side of the body extends while a joint from the left side flexes, one must identify to which side of the body one is referring with those sorts of simultaneous movements.  Also, the terms open-chain and closed-chain are helpful to know.

 

Of course, if we consider and add the kinesiological work and language of Rudolf Laban to the discussion, we can be even more precise in our movement analysis!


Edited by NCski - 11/6/16 at 5:01am
post #131 of 210
I have a question for clarification purposes.

Would you judge to be a frequent or an infrequent event that people tell you that they'd really rather not work with you thank you very much?
post #132 of 210
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OnSnow View Post

I have a question for clarification purposes.

Would you judge to be a frequent or an infrequent event that people tell you that they'd really rather not work with you thank you very much?

 

 The problem with an instructional internet forum is that one must first determine who the experts are in order to know whose instruction to heed and whose to ignore.   I requested analysis of my skiing in order to determine who can actually see what's happening movement-wise. Once I know whose advice can be trusted, I will listen to their instruction.

 

To answer your question directly:  It is an infrequent event.  With the exception of 21 days of vacation that I have planned for this ski season and 14 days in the upcoming summer, I am booked with gigs from now through Fall 2017.

 

When it comes to my being a student in an activity or discipline, my instructors have always been delighted to have a student who does much research and asks educated questions.  

post #133 of 210

You made me curious with the mystery movement - I looked again at the videos. I still see the same thing: flexing hard out of the turns and continuing to lift the new inside foot, no doubt about that and that certainly contributes to the hips moving in... but in this particular "wiggle", that's also hidden by the upper body leveraging the hips inside with the shoulder.

 

It's a really good question, but if you want me to get detailed:

- at apex, long leg, counterbalanced a lot, hard on the outside ski: the sucker bends and turns across the slope in a blink

- you flex out of that: you flex the old outside leg hard and that lets the hips move down the slope, reducing the angle of the skis

- as you cross under the body, you do two three things:

a) you continue to lift the inside ski and that will drop the hips

b) you also leverage the hips in with the shoulder (i.e. angulate hard or counterbalance)

c) the skis continue moving to the side, extending the leg away from the hips and that also naturally establishes "inclination of COM"  thus contributes to edging the skis (sooner or later).

 

Note that b) is not normally something you'd get in an MA, but it's what I see there, considering all the momentums and leverage points concerned.

 

I picked on b) and c) I believe initially... a) is obvious but considering the others, I don't think it's contribution is high.

 

Anyways, thanks for making me think and articulate.

cheers


Edited by razie - 11/4/16 at 1:44pm
post #134 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCski View Post

 The problem with an instructional internet forum is that one must first determine who the experts are in order to know whose instruction to heed and whose to ignore.   I requested analysis of my skiing in order to determine who can actually see what's happening movement-wise. Once I know whose advice can be trusted, I will listen to their instruction.

To answer your question directly:  It is an infrequent event.  With the exception of 21 days of vacation that I have planned for this ski season and 14 days in the upcoming summer, I am booked with gigs from now through Fall 2017.

When it comes to my being a student in an activity or discipline, my instructors have always been delighted to have a student who does much research and asks educated questions.  

One of the greatest barriers to learning in sports is that most people are not doing what they think they are doing. Which included athletes at the highest levels. This is why expert coaching is usually required. Fixing problems is a lot simpler than identifying them. Your "test" to see who can correctly MA your turns, is based in the premise that you know exactly what your movements are and how they effect your turns. If this is true, why do you even need third party input?
post #135 of 210
I'd post a detailed response NC, but why bother? Nonetheless I will say that you ARE dumping your hip in to edge the skis. The "levering of the hips" is being achieved in part by using a reaction force from the snow while still on your old edges which you use to move your mass inside the new turn---this is the second easiest way to dump inside in my view btw. Ahhh, but that's more than I wanted to say...good luck! :-)

zenny
Edited by zentune - 11/4/16 at 6:46pm
post #136 of 210
NC, let's assume that you are an expert in MA, and that you do know the movements you are making. There's nothing that you've described in your background to convince me that you can accurately judge the cause and effect of those movements relating to the behavior of the skis. And, I happen to disagree with some of your assessments. There isn't universal agreement about which movements cause edging and which movements are for balance. But, I will say that it's not necessary to move your hips the way you do just to stay balanced while your skis go on edge. Check out Gurshman's stuff who's a big advocate of inclination and likes to minimize the use of hip angulation, and you'll see there's more than one way to balance while edging. This shows that these choices affect the edge angles, and therefore make decoupling the cause and effect not as simple as you have claimed.
post #137 of 210
 
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
Originally Posted by NCski View Post
The problem with an instructional internet forum is that one must first determine who the experts are in order to know whose instruction to heed and whose to ignore.   I requested analysis of my skiing in order to determine who can actually see what's happening movement-wise. Once I know whose advice can be trusted, I will listen to their instruction.

To answer your question directly:  It is an infrequent event.  With the exception of 21 days of vacation that I have planned for this ski season and 14 days in the upcoming summer, I am booked with gigs from now through Fall 2017.

When it comes to my being a student in an activity or discipline, my instructors have always been delighted to have a student who does much research and asks educated questions.  
One of the greatest barriers to learning in sports is that most people are not doing what they think they are doing. Which included athletes at the highest levels. This is why expert coaching is usually required. Fixing problems is a lot simpler than identifying them. Your "test" to see who can correctly MA your turns, is based in the premise that you know exactly what your movements are and how they effect your turns. If this is true, why do you even need third party input?

 

Exactly.  MGA nailed it.  Most people, even dancers with their excellent proprioception, do not know what they are doing.  This community knows this.  You do not.  You are used to your expertise in dancing, which you can see in the mirrors in your dance studios, and the language used there in that context.  It's different in skiing, but you don't know that.  

I'm going to quote myself again here and make some new suggestions, with your recent responses in mind.

 

=========================================================================

Both NCski and Reilly (the skier I matched up to NCski in previous posts upthread and again below) are using a flex-to-release move.  

They both stay low through the transition.  

They both shape their turns with their skis tracking in the snow, not from rotating the skis across the surface of the snow.

Both eliminate any head travel in the up-down way (their heads stay pretty much the same distance from the snow). 

Reilly and NCski both are facing downhill for their turns.  

My inference from the direction the upper body is facing is that both skiers are intending to make short radius turns.  

However, NCski's turns go farther across the hill.  This is maybe an intention of his, but I'm not sure.

So he takes longer to get to the next turn than Reilly.  This is a sign that something needs to change in NCski's turns,

if I've got it correct that he wants to make turns like the ones Reilly is making.

NCski never said whether this is a goal or not, but I'm going to continue to believe it is. 

 

Reilly keeps his feet under him more, and uses his lower legs to get those skis on edge, not his hips.  

NCski drops his hip to get his skis on edge and moves his outside shoulder back to allow his hip to drop as far as he can; Reilly does not do either of those.

NCski needs to lose the hip drop and start his turn by working from the feet.

He needs to keep his feet up under him as he increases his edge angles.

And he needs to lose the shoulder move.  

That is, if he wants to make the turns Reilly is making.

 

Note below where Reilly's knees are in the first still.  He is "wagging" his knees back and forth beneath a solid upper body (great term, Rich).

Doing that knee-wag feels quite different from dropping the hip, and looks quite different.  

That knee wag is what makes Reilly's turns so powerful, so short, and so dynamic.

 

NCski has some of Reilly's movements going, but I'm guessing that NCski wants his hip down on the snow too, and he's aiming for that.  

He's prematurely working on something (the low hip) before he's ready for it.  

As a result of jumping ahead for that ultimate sign of great skiing, the hip-on-the-snow-look, he's getting the hip low the wrong way.  

He's cheating.

It shows, to those who are used to watching for these things.  Getting the hip low this dysfunctional way is common; it has a name.

It's called "hip dump."

NCski, lose the hip dump.  The knee wag is next.  You're not ready yet for the hip-to-snow turn.

===================================================================

This is an internet ski forum.  NCski, the knowledgeable people who have commented

in this thread are giving their time freely to you and to eveyone else who is quietly reading this thread.

You are not paying the people who are giving their time.  

They are all telling you about the same thing, in different ways.  You are getting valid information. 

 

But you are interviewing the people here, giving freely of their time, as if you, as a student,

are a prize job to be won.  

This is not good internet etiquette, sir.

 

==================================================================

I suggest you go here:  http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/index.ph

Post your video here:  http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=40b04e5c4ae8adfb81b177b2ce00f7b3

 

You'll be told to buy this guy's three books, work your way through his exercises, then to post video again.

You'll be told to learn the fundamentals first, and the people giving MA will tell you what you are doing using their special terminology.

They won't talk about anatomy, however.  You'll be told to learn and use his technical terms, found in his books and in that forum.  

You'll be told to work on one single most important move at a time.  You'll be told you've found the right place to learn.  

You'll be told to stay away from here, that we are the enemy.  And you'll be told to sign up for his camps.  

Given your attitude, you might feel more at home there.

 

If you stay here, you need to learn how to work with the people here.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 11/6/16 at 6:07am
post #138 of 210

As usual, a great frame capture and “self-qualifying” corresponding comments from LF, the benefits alone of which are worth at least a private lesson. IMO, this post nails down the best message to the skier that entails all the right inclusions without much of the relevant but message-hindering flotsam and entrails of information, that of which I often tend to include myself. I do that simply because I am here more to learn than anything else which ultimately means that I am writing to myself as much as to anyone else here as are, perhaps, others. As a Teacher, LF effectively trims the message for ready digestibility.

 

LF, thanks for the wag props. While you have certainly captured the critical essence of the concept, technically it is “femur” wagging that is the input and lateral knee displacement that is the direct output of which, ultimately, translates to ski tipping with movement that is limited or concentrated from the waist down and, categorically, is a separation technique. I may have written knee wagging at some point not paying attention and want to make sure I am not misleading the concept. What I have told skiers learning the motor pattern is: “The femur is the dog tail of a happy skier.”

 

A great suggestion for anyone doubting MA results here is to take it to the other forum and compare results. However, due to the tightly clustered bullet pattern of the Epic MA here, I believe the target has been fully emulsified in a manner rendering the pre-resolution of any further or final results henceforth. It is time to go back to the drawing board as soon as is laid by Mother Nature.

post #139 of 210
Yo Purple,

What "tightly clustered bullet pattern of the Epic MA?" Seems like widely dispersed bird shot to this outside observer. Sort of a skier's Rorschach test.

And please don't send your problems over to the performance ski technique forum. What happens in epic stays in epic.
post #140 of 210

Well, as one should conclude, my advice is that he has no need to bring his MA there even though I give credence to LF’s advice for him to do so under the circumstances she outlines. Generally, though, I don’t recommend that anyone seeking a few pieces of advice to go where they would be forced to swallow 3 gallons of kool aid in order to take it and leaving very little room, if any, for the independent creativity that is a typical hallmark of excellent skiing. The only time a body will ever bloat that much again is upon post rigor mortis decay and a decay of which, relatively enough, typically occurs when the body is “forced” out of all other options for growth. It is the smell of that decay that lends observance to where you are coming from and why what happens there does not stay where it belongs.

post #141 of 210
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Exactly.  MGA nailed it.  Most people, even dancers with their excellent proprioception, do not know what they are doing.  This community knows this.  You do not.  You are used to your expertise in dancing, which you can see in the mirrors in your dance studios, and the language used there in that context.  It's different in skiing, but you don't know that.  
I'm going to quote myself again here and make some new suggestions, with your recent responses in mind.
Yes, there are mirrors in the dance studio, but we generally keep a curtain drawn closed in front of them. They are almost never used. The day to day language in the studio doesn't necessarily include the anatomical terms I've been using because the choreographer is present to physically demonstrate movements. I know that the choreographer knows what s/he is talking about because s/he demonstrates it in real time and if it becomes necessary, uses anatomical terms for further clarification.
Quote:
Both NCski and Reilly (the skier I matched up to NCski in previous posts upthread and again below) are using a flex-to-release move.  
They both stay low through the transition.  
They both shape their turns with their skis tracking in the snow, not from rotating the skis across the surface of the snow.
Both eliminate any head travel in the up-down way (their heads stay pretty much the same distance from the snow). 
Reilly and NCski both are facing downhill for their turns.  
My inference from the direction the upper body is facing is that both skiers are intending to make short radius turns.  
However, NCski's turns go farther across the hill.  This is maybe an intention of his, but I'm not sure.
So he takes longer to get to the next turn than Reilly.  This is a sign that something needs to change in NCski's turns,
if I've got it correct that he wants to make turns like the ones Reilly is making.
NCski never said whether this is a goal or not, but I'm going to continue to believe it is. 
My goal with these turns is to end a turn and initiate a new turn by articulating the joints in the manner, rate, etc. as I was instructed to. I am not going for a certain "look". I am also following the instruction not to rush the turn by rotating the skis at any point of the turn. I was assured that the skis would follow a tighter arc when I am able to incorporate movements unavailable to me due to my knee injury. Something that I am rushing is making a movement that ends a turn, thereby ending the turn earlier than I would like and starting the next turn.
Quote:
Reilly keeps his feet under him more, and uses his lower legs to get those skis on edge, not his hips.  
NCski drops his hip to get his skis on edge and moves his outside shoulder back to allow his hip to drop as far as he can; Reilly does not do either of those.
To drop ones hip requires a movement opposite of what I am making. When my skis are in the midst of a turn to the left (on their left edges), I am strongly abducting at the right acetabulofemoral joint and adducting at the left acetabulofemoral joint. This is the opposite of dropping the hip to the inside of the turn.
With respect to moving my outside shoulder back, I am not adducting (retracting) my shoulder. I don't know how you are seeing this movement. It's not there.
Quote:
NCski needs to lose the hip drop and start his turn by working from the feet.
He needs to keep his feet up under him as he increases his edge angles.
My feet aren't under me because I am following the instruction given to me to let my knee and acetabulofemoral joints extend to allow the skis to follow their path and maintain contact with the snow.
Quote:
And he needs to lose the shoulder move.  
That is, if he wants to make the turns Reilly is making.

Note below where Reilly's knees are in the first still.  He is "wagging" his knees back and forth beneath a solid upper body (great term, Rich).
Doing that knee-wag feels quite different from dropping the hip, and looks quite different.  
That knee wag is what makes Reilly's turns so powerful, so short, and so dynamic.


NCski has some of Reilly's movements going, but I'm guessing that NCski wants his hip down on the snow too, and he's aiming for that.  
He's prematurely working on something (the low hip) before he's ready for it.  
As a result of jumping ahead for that ultimate sign of great skiing, the hip-on-the-snow-look, he's getting the hip low the wrong way.  
He's cheating.
It shows, to those who are used to watching for these things.  Getting the hip low this dysfunctional way is common; it has a name.
It's called "hip dump."
NCski, lose the hip dump.  The knee wag is next.  You're not ready yet for the hip-to-snow turn.
There seems to be an obsession by some members here with attaining a certain "look". I assure you that I am not trying to put my hip someplace in space with respect to the snow. My pelvis arrives at a height relative to the snow as a result of other movements that are happening. To prevent my inside hip from dropping, I am articulating the acetabulofemoral joints in a way to level the pelvis as much as possible until I run out of acetabulofemoral ROM.
Quote:
This is an internet ski forum.  NCski, the knowledgeable people who have commented
in this thread are giving their time freely to you and to eveyone else who is quietly reading this thread.
I have yet to see much demonstrated knowledge of the movements of the human body. I do not come here claiming to be an expert of skiing, but movement is movement. Our joints can only be articulated in certain ways through internal means (muscles) and external means (outside forces acting upon our bodies).
Quote:
You are not paying the people who are giving their time.  They are all telling you the same thing, in
different ways.
But you are interviewing them as if you, as a student, are a prize job to be won.  
This is not good internet etiquette, sir.
I am aware that I am not paying the people that are giving their time. I never was under the impression that I was, and I appreciate whenever I receive free instruction from a knowledgeable person. However, I do not blindly assume that someone on an internet forum is an expert until s/he demonstrates her/his expertise. I have read through other threads here and have seen some knowledgeable members, but they do not seem to be very active on the forums anynore.
Is it good internet etiquette to just assume that other posters who are offering instruction know what they are talking about with respect to human movement when most of them have not yet demonstrated that they have an understanding of basic human movements? It isn't a chore for someone who is an expert in movement analysis to demonstrate their expertise. It doesn't involve a test, quiz, or questionnaire. Their analysis demonstrates their expertise. If they don't want to volunteer their time, they don't. Most of the responses thus far have demonstrated that the poster isn't seeing nor identifying the movements being made. There seems to have been a focus on shapes, poses, or forms, and most attempts at identifying movements have not been correct.
Quote:
==================================================================
I suggest you go here:  http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/index.ph
Post your video here:  http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=40b04e5c4ae8adfb81b177b2ce00f7b3

You'll be told to buy this guy's three books, work your way through his exercises, then to post video again.
You'll be told to learn the fundamentals first, and the people giving MA will tell you what you are doing using their special terminology.
They won't talk about anatomy, however.  You'll be told to learn and use his technical terms, found in his books and in that forum.  
You'll be told to work on one single most important move at a time.  You'll be told you've found the right place to learn.  
You'll be told to stay away from here, that we are the enemy.  And you'll be told to sign up for his camps.  
Given your attitude, you might feel more at home there.

If you stay here, you need to learn how to work with the people here.
Thank you for the links. Contrary to what you suggest, a quick search of that site produced many results with anatomical explanations and a demonstration of kinesiological understanding. The first hit of the first search I tried yielded a discussion of the gluteus medius, adductors of the femur, etc.

If working with the people here means blindly following instruction when the instructions are based on an incorrect assessment of the movements presently being made, then I feel sorry for those who have become blind followers by "learning to work with people here." Aside from Razie's advice, I have been given what amounts to a throwing-dull-tipped-darts-while-blindfolded prescription for my skiing.

I will reiterate that I am not an expert skier, and I have not claimed to be one. In case anyone missed it, I presently label myself as an intermediate. Regardless of my skiing level, I will question others' instructions when it seems that there is not a sound basis of understanding from the instructor.
Edited by NCski - 11/6/16 at 10:09am
post #142 of 210
That's fine, @NCski. I see you've found your forum. Thanks for stopping by here.
post #143 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCski View Post


My feet aren't under me because I am following the instruction given to me to let my knee and acetabulofemoral joints extend to allow the skis to follow their path and maintain contact with the snow.

 

  Then you haven't been receiving the proper instruction apparently :D. I could go on about bimechanics all day, and you can search through threads I have posted in to verify this. The fact that you don't mention foot-level activation here is telling :-)

 

  zenny

post #144 of 210
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post

That's fine, @NCski. I see you've found your forum. Thanks for stopping by here.
That is not my forum,ROTF.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

  Then you haven't been receiving the proper instruction apparently biggrin.gif . I could go on about bimechanics all day, and you can search through threads I have posted in to verify this. The fact that you don't mention foot-level activation here is telling :-)

  zenny
I guess you haven't read my posts. I have mentioned inversion of the foot, it is instruction that has been given to me, and I have mentioned that I can see how it is beneficial. I need to practice it more with ski boots on. Though, I don't think I've mentioned dorsiflexion/plantarflexion.
post #145 of 210

And what happens when you invert the foot? Also, is that an open or closed chain activity? What about pronation/eversion?

 

  zenny

post #146 of 210

 What are the musculoskelatal benefits of being able to pronate the foot?

 

 zenny

post #147 of 210
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

And what happens when you invert the foot? Also, is that an open or closed chain activity? What about pronation/eversion?

  zenny
Open chain foot inversion, since the knee and acetabulofemoral joints of that leg flex enough to remove the body mass from being supported by that foot so that ones weight is on the other foot.
post #148 of 210

 Ahhh. I see :rolleyes

 

  zenny

post #149 of 210
Thread Starter 
So you prove that you know how to discuss movements. What movements am I making to transfer balance to my old inside ski?
post #150 of 210

Ha! I'm done now :-)

 

  zenny

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