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Short turns drill name? - Page 6

post #151 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Ummmmmmm..... running downhill can injure the knees ... if you brace/brake with each foot plant.  

If you slam into the ground in front of you with each foot plant, the repeated slamming will do damage.

 

To avoid knee injury from repeated slams, you need to plant each foot behind your CoM enough to avoid the braking effect.

It's got to be much like skiing the fall line in moguls, I suspect (not yet being able to bump fall-line skiing myself).

 

I do have the running downhill thing going, though, so am speaking from experience in that domain.

 

post #152 of 174

^^^  Moseley using a plyometrics eccentric exercise to strengthen his legs, the cool things are he added two proprioception components by landing on his spots with out looking down and because the platform he is landing on is non uniformed, he has to "feel" to soften his landings. 

 

Plyometric is still consider a very useful exercise for skiers. Below is a vid of UConn's ski team/club, every now and then they qualify to compete in the nationals. Go to 1:40 to see their plyometric circuit. . 

 

 

post #153 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post


Bump skiing is more or less the same since the 80s. No carving skis back then and also no need for carving skiis in the zipperline today either. Also no need for sharp egdes because you pivot, skid sideways and then slam into the rut. If you dont ski the technical line like me with more rounded turns. Still no need for sidecut thou....

Here's me skiing a zipperline at Mary Jane on a 24 m turning radius ski.  There's no sideways skidding, no slamming into the rut, not a whole lot of skidding of any kind.

 

post #154 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post


Bump skiing is more or less the same since the 80s. No carving skis back then and also no need for carving skiis in the zipperline today either. Also no need for sharp egdes because you pivot, skid sideways and then slam into the rut. If you dont ski the technical line like me with more rounded turns. Still no need for sidecut thou....

Here's me skiing a zipperline at Mary Jane on a 24 m turning radius ski.  There's no sideways skidding, no slamming into the rut, not a whole lot of skidding of any kind.

 

 

That's some smooth turning TE. Not that it necessarily makes a difference in the bumps but, have you noticed the tip lead on the right side only and sometimes for both right and left turns? I've never seen that before.

 

One of the main reasons bump skis do not need sidecuts is because the ski is bent by the terrain. On flat terrain, the side cut is needed to bend the ski. Whatever you do, make sure your ski bends.


Edited by Rich666 - 9/29/16 at 12:55pm
post #155 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

 

Not that it necessarily makes a difference in the bumps but, have you noticed the tip lead on the right side only? I've never seen that before.

 

Good eye!  Yes, it's a known dominant leg problem.  I'm not shifting my weight enough on one side.  Also causes me to separate my knees sometimes.

post #156 of 174

Very cool!

post #157 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
 

..... it's a known dominant leg problem.  ....

 

I had dominant leg problem with my left leg. Turns out my one leg balance was weaker on that leg as well. To fix this, some of us mortals still put on our pant one leg at a time, I started to mix it up, left leg first or right leg first. Been doing one legged balance exercises as well. 

post #158 of 174

Michael Rogan recently wrote on the PSIA forum for us to write down our goals for this coming season:

 

"What are you doing to improve?  What is your plan? Who will you ask for help?   Will you recognize when your plan goes sideways?  Will you take responsibility for your effort and progress? "

 

TE, I encourage you to start a bumps thread with your Mary Jane video and your bumps learning progression.

Bumps are my focus for this season and I (and no doubt others) would really appreciate your (and others) help.

post #159 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

I had dominant leg problem with my left leg. Turns out my one leg balance was weaker on that leg as well. To fix this, some of us mortals still put on our pant one leg at a time, I started to mix it up, left leg first or right leg first. Been doing one legged balance exercises as well. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one. A top level mogul coach had me doing javelin turns with the opposite hand pointing down the hill to fix this. Helps with the weight shift and being forward, because if you're not forward with those straight skis you take off in an uncomfortable position with your skis crossed.

Tim, I tried starting a mogul thread before. It didn't go so well. I'm pubic enemy number one now that ctkook's been banned. I have an agenda. It's to dispel commonly held myths about mogul skiing. TDK is an absolutely reasonable fellow with great skill and knowledge, but I'm still going after some mogul statements in near banned person style which ultimately leads to thread meltdown and lock. If I can get some third person video that I feel I can stand behind, I might try starting another thread with the purpose of seeing if I can do it without getting into a fight that leads to moderator intervention.
post #160 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
 

Good eye!  Yes, it's a known dominant leg problem.  I'm not shifting my weight enough on one side.  Also causes me to separate my knees sometimes.

 

I have a dominant leg problem too. Just neither the right or the left. Anyway, if you think it is based on a mental imbalance rather than that of physical/biomechanical imbalance, you might consider some advice I have heard (prob here). Habitualizing starting the two most dominant turns of every run, the first and the last, with the less dominant leg may make a difference over time. The first turn of every run tends to be an intellectually dominant turn as we use it to make decisions for the following run and the last turn tends to be a physically dominant turn as we are also using it to stop or slow down.

 

While cleanliness and consistency of technique stem from foundational elements of our skiing, they also highly influence the aesthetics of the final product. For skiing, form IS function where it is found that the best technique is also the most aesthetically pleasing to watch (for those with a developed eye). Expert skiers that have not had the benefit of a "clean and consistent" path of development, such as a career racer or any competitive racer with adolescent beginnings tend to have, some technical issues with faulty motor patterns tend to exist. While the cleanliness aspect is more foundational than the consistency aspect, it is a more complex issue upon which I'd rather not elaborate. Consistency, on the other hand, can be influenced without meddling with the foundation of one's skiing.

 

Rhythm can be seen as a stable platform of foundational movement from which we can more easily execute other adjustments/corrections without losing flow. We all know that a loss of flow can stand out like a sore thumb and crash what would otherwise be a good set of turns. It is my opinion that establishing and consistently managing specifically chosen turn rhythms provide a "platform" of movement that carries its own momentum and a focus that tends to vacate to the intuitive process once established by intent. It is this intuitive momentum that can be relied upon for a skier to maintain flow in the face of mistakes and correction, both of which, reduce the aesthetic qualities of anyone's skiing.

 

While a non-symmetrical and excessive tip lead may be a visual indicator of underlying issues, I don't think it amounts to much of an aesthetic issue. In terms of "choosing your battles" of improvement, you may decide to leave it alone and not worry about it. However, if you were to reach the conclusion that you would like to make a go at your highest potential as a skier, this is not something that can be corrected in the bumps where this faulty motor pattern is likely supported and encouraged by a network of highly established reinforcement cues and stimuli.  

post #161 of 174

The Engineer:  You can share your knowledge without disagreement.  Witness the recent exchange between JASP and me.  He disagrees with my approach to teaching beginning parallel.  I didn't disagree with him.  What I do works for me.  What he does works for him.  Not all life is a mathematical problem with an equation sign in the middle to solve.  There is not a right answer to much of teaching in my personal opinion anyway, because most of what works for students is mostly transference. 

 

There is a lot of testosterone here and in most high level sports (including among some very tough women!)  Witness that kayak picture I posted recently of the dam run.  That is my wife.  She graciously let me go first because she had run it the weekend before without me.  

 

When the testosterone-infused are challenged to flight or fight.  We will fight.  Learning how to ski moguls like you showed in the Garmin helmet cam shows that you likely fought to learn how to do that.  That ability took courage to achieve.  Good for you.  You want to defend that achievement and the progression you took to achieve it.  But fighting is beneath you. 

 

TE you are an engineer, you are an athlete.  You simply do yourself a disservice by fighting with ANYONE here.  I advocate voting for Trump because I don't want Hillary to make the U.S. like France.  But he disgusts me when he won't let a personal insult slide.  America has bigger issues than his personal pride.  Don't share this Trumpian characteristic!  YOU have more to give back to the sport of skiing and to this forum than to just stake out and defend your point of view.  

 

Share it.  Some will get it now.  Some won't get it now, but will get it later.  Others won't get it ever.  And others will fight for whatever the current orthodoxy is that your particular heterodoxy is challenging.  So share, but be patient.  Share, but be confident in yourself, in your proven accomplishments, and in the knowledge which you have struggled to obtain and now have to share. Give back to others out of gratitude for the mental and physical gifts you have been given.  Some of your pearls of wisdom will be before swine or dullards like me.  That is my problem (and those who are dullards like me) - not yours. TAKE NO OFFENSE.  Don't rise to any fight here.  You may offend some, but you will help many others whom you will never know.

 

It is time for you to move from the mere knowledge of an accomplished student to the wisdom of a patient teacher.

post #162 of 174

Popcorn I must have popcorn

post #163 of 174
Quote:

Tim, I tried starting a mogul thread before. It didn't go so well. .....

 

 

TE and I believe in direct line mogul skiing. IMO, the train wrecks occurs as in all public debates/opinion when other passionately believes in different approaches.

 

Many years ago, I spent the time to read up on my regional PSIA criteria/standard for bump skiing and it differs from the direct line approach. The vid below shows what I believe most regional standards are today. I understand why this was chosen, I still don't agree with it but it is what it is. In order to go up the cert ladder, one has to show proficiency with this method. Again IMO, this approach takes away from techniques to ski a direct line.

 

As for my motivation, I come here to lurk and get my head thinking about how turns are made with the fatties and rockers. The main reason is they are forming turn shapes on "man made" bump trails, so I'm trying to alter my turns or tactics to adapt. Every know and then, I read some misconceptions about bump skiing and will post to counter in hopes that it may help others. 

 

 


Edited by jack97 - 9/30/16 at 9:55am
post #164 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

 

Rhythm can be seen as a stable platform of foundational movement from which we can more easily execute other adjustments/corrections without losing flow. We all know that a loss of flow can stand out like a sore thumb and crash what would otherwise be a good set of turns. It is my opinion that establishing and consistently managing specifically chosen turn rhythms provide a "platform" of movement that carries its own momentum and a focus that tends to vacate to the intuitive process once established by intent. It is this intuitive momentum that can be relied upon for a skier to maintain flow in the face of mistakes and correction, both of which, reduce the aesthetic qualities of anyone's skiing.

 

 

 

 

I agree that rhythm is a key component of good skiing.    A couple of my favorite quotes regarding this.

 

Lito Tejada-Flores

 

"Let the mountain suggest a turn to you, you can accept or reject the mountains suggestion.

Skiing is a conversation with the mountain.

At best a dance with the mountain."

 

 

A race coach I know said not to think of individual turns but to think of the entire run.

 

Focus on the flow of the run, the rhythm of the turns, not on each turn.


Edited by SkiMangoJazz - 9/30/16 at 10:17am
post #165 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Hodgson View Post
 

The Engineer:  You can share your knowledge without disagreement.  Witness the recent exchange between JASP and me.  He disagrees with my approach to teaching beginning parallel.  I didn't disagree with him.  What I do works for me.  What he does works for him.  Not all life is a mathematical problem with an equation sign in the middle to solve.  There is not a right answer to much of teaching in my personal opinion anyway, because most of what works for students is mostly transference. 

 

There is a lot of testosterone here and in most high level sports (including among some very tough women!)  Witness that kayak picture I posted recently of the dam run.  That is my wife.  She graciously let me go first because she had run it the weekend before without me.  

 

When the testosterone-infused are challenged to flight or fight.  We will fight.  Learning how to ski moguls like you showed in the Garmin helmet cam shows that you likely fought to learn how to do that.  That ability took courage to achieve.  Good for you.  You want to defend that achievement and the progression you took to achieve it.  But fighting is beneath you. 

 

TE you are an engineer, you are an athlete.  You simply do yourself a disservice by fighting with ANYONE here.  I advocate voting for Trump because I don't want Hillary to make the U.S. like France.  But he disgusts me when he won't let a personal insult slide.  America has bigger issues than his personal pride.  Don't share this Trumpian characteristic!  YOU have more to give back to the sport of skiing and to this forum than to just stake out and defend your point of view.  

 

Share it.  Some will get it now.  Some won't get it now, but will get it later.  Others won't get it ever.  And others will fight for whatever the current orthodoxy is that your particular heterodoxy is challenging.  So share, but be patient.  Share, but be confident in yourself, in your proven accomplishments, and in the knowledge which you have struggled to obtain and now have to share. Give back to others out of gratitude for the mental and physical gifts you have been given.  Some of your pearls of wisdom will be before swine or dullards like me.  That is my problem (and those who are dullards like me) - not yours. TAKE NO OFFENSE.  Don't rise to any fight here.  You may offend some, but you will help many others whom you will never know.

 

It is time for you to move from the mere knowledge of an accomplished student to the wisdom of a patient teacher.

Tim, thanks for the wise words.  On the slope, often someone will ask me for pointers in the moguls, and I am happy to share.  In this environment of instructors, I am not qualified to teach skiing.  I am qualified to teach engineering (Ph.D.), so I'm confident providing that kind of input.  My feeling is that instructional institutes have abandoned comp mogul skiing.  There are some good reasons for this.  Some parts have little application to recreational skiing.  But, in the process of defining a different approach that aligns better with recreation, I believe many instructors have also lost track of the progress and knowledge that the comp community has developed.  They've thrown away the baby with the bath water.  Often, I've seen the disconnects boil down to engineering type disagreements, and I've felt that with my expertise in engineering combined with some personal experience in the zipper line I could help bridge the gap, or at least provide some compelling arguments about the utility of many of the comp approaches.  Unfortunately, this type of input often implies that someone else's body of work over many years is invalid, so what I feel I have to offer is not what many people enjoy hearing, right or wrong.  

 

The Trump analogy holds true, I am a counter puncher.  Though, it's not really the way I typically act.  I felt like there was allot of group bullying here and that not backing down could break it up.

post #166 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

 

TE and I believe in direct line mogul skiing.  

 

Well jack97 and The Engineer you have your thread title then*:

 

"Direct Line Mogul Skiing"

 

1.  Define it.

 

2.  Show it with video.

 

3.  Explain it with words.

 

4.  Give us a Progression to try to Learn.

 

5.  Break critical moves into Drill elements (static, traverse (if applicable) and dynamic).

 

6.  And per Rich666's suggestion, give us the beat (the metronome rhythm).

 

TE, stop your whining.  Once a teacher always a teacher.  

Step up and make us happy and stronger by showing us the path you followed to achieve your success. 

 

Sleep on it you two, or three or four or more out there...

 

* Others can contribute with their own threads on "indirect" line, round bump lines, or other mogul lines.  

post #167 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Hodgson View Post

Well jack97 and The Engineer you have your thread title then*:

"Direct Line Mogul Skiing"

 

1.  Define it.

2.  Show it with video.

3.  Explain it with words.

4.  Give us a Progression to try to Learn.

5.  Break critical moves into Drill elements (static, traverse (if applicable) and dynamic).

6.  And per Rich666's suggestion, give us the beat (the metronome rhythm).

 

TE, stop your whining.  Once a teacher always a teacher.  

Step up and make us happy and stronger by showing us the path you followed to achieve your success. 

 

Sleep on it you two, or three or four or more out there...

 

* Others can contribute with their own threads on "indirect" line, round bump lines, or other mogul lines.  


"Stop your whining?"  Not good.  Can't you do that differently?  

post #168 of 174
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Hodgson View Post

 

4.  Give us a Progression to try to Learn.

 

 

This I would like to see - especially what terrain progression looks like.  Can you do this on gentle slope?  Can this be done at a slower pace?  Assuming some proficiency with the indirect approach, what are the first steps?

post #169 of 174

Hey jack97 and The Engineer: 

 

I know you two must also want that cool looking "Discussion Starter" badge I just earned.

So, when you are sleeping on it, dream of that coveted Epic Ski badge too...

post #170 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 


"Stop your whining?"  Not good.  Can't you do that differently?  

Thanks LiquidFeet.  Though, in the context, I'm ok with it.  He's basically saying get over it, which is valid.

 

 

Tim, there's lots of stuff out there by top level skiers, but TexSkier followed on with a good point that I've noticed too.  There aren't a whole lot of visual examples of how to start slowly that have been compelling.  (Jack will probably now post 20 videos all showing it nicely)   This may be what leads people to believe it can't be done slowly.  I might be able to help with this, because I have no problem skiing slowly.  I might even be able to ski slower than most.  I'll work on that this season.  I'll try to get a video of different ways that I would ski slowly and smoothly through different types of zipper lines and show the progression to faster speeds (still slow, relatively).

post #171 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
 

Thanks LiquidFeet.  Though, in the context, I'm ok with it.  He's basically saying get over it, which is valid.

 

 

Tim, there's lots of stuff out there by top level skiers, but TexSkier followed on with a good point that I've noticed too.  There aren't a whole lot of visual examples of how to start slowly that have been compelling.  (Jack will probably now post 20 videos all showing it nicely)   This may be what leads people to believe it can't be done slowly.  I might be able to help with this, because I have no problem skiing slowly.  I might even be able to ski slower than most.  I'll work on that this season.  I'll try to get a video of different ways that I would ski slowly and smoothly through different types of zipper lines and show the progression to faster speeds (still slow, relatively).

 

TE, you are the best!  I will gladly donate my coveted Discussion Starter badge to you if you will teach me how to ski bumps, or better yet direct line bumps s-l-o-w-l-y...

post #172 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

 

 

I agree that rhythm is a key component of good skiing.    A couple of my favorite quotes regarding this.

 

Lito Tejada-Flores

 

"Let the mountain suggest a turn to you, you can accept or reject the mountains suggestion.

Skiing is a conversation with the mountain.

At best a dance with the mountain."

 

 

A race coach I know said not to think of individual turns but to think of the entire run.

 

Focus on the flow of the run, the rhythm of the turns, not on each turn.

 

You raise a good point and one that has me noticing that while there is a lot of discussion around turns, turn phases, transitions, etc., there seems to be very little focus on turn sets. Yet, I think many of us would agree that a level of inconsistency that is producing even just one noticeable mistake in every ten of what otherwise would be good turns simply will not impress a good number of people. The complete focus tends to go to what the skier is doing wrong and very little to what is done correctly. That is because the skier annoyed the viewer for interrupting the flow of the viewer's aesthetic enjoyment. So that's what you get. I would also tend to think that this rate of mistakes from a relatively good skier would not pass the higher level of certs out there. Racing? Forget about it. Stated differently and in more regards to factors of development, I would appreciate a set of 9 mediocre turns more than a set of 3 good turns, 3 mediocre turns and 3 bad turns. Although they equate mathematically, the first set is more representative of getting to 9 good turns more quickly when calculating in the more tangible factor of consistency.

 

Every turn is based in the context of the turn above and the turn below. One turn is only one tone, a full set of turns is the entire song. One turn does not a body of work make.

post #173 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post One turn is only one tone, a full set of turns is the entire song. One turn does not a body of work make.

 

 

Nice.

 

To me skiing is an expressive art form, more than a craft.  There is no score keeping (unless you're racing or going for certifications.)

 

Skiing is like a jazz improvisation.  The mountain, snow conditions, weather are the form of the song, the chord changes.

 

The skier is taking a solo within those constraints.  Every turn is  a riff, every run is different.

 

Be bop!

post #174 of 174

Like good comedy, jazz improv and terrain induced rhythm changes all have one important thing in common which is the need for good timing. Otherwise, your locomotive may skip off the tracks. Just ask Kozmo.

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