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# Feathering at different points in the turn - Page 3

Given its possible origin, maybe we shouldn't abandon the use of the term "skid":

"5. an instance of sliding, esp sideways

[C17: perhaps of Scandinavian origin; compare ski]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014"

(And great video!   Personal goal for this season is moguls...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

It is too simplistic to say that the skis are skidding sideways, it is a spectrum. Did you see the picture I posted in post #5 (also below)?

IMO you way of reasoning is too static, it is not like I'm brushing around and then suddently realize that I need to increase the edge angle in order to carve, it is one continuous movement, where the initial steering angle makes the ski skid more initially. Likely this initial angle is from anticipation in the last turn. Through the first half of the turn the edge angle increase, both by more inclination and more hip angulation (some knee also initially), the vertical reaction force is also increasing due to the dynamics of the turn (CoM is moving downwards but accelerating upwards). You are also increasing the distance between the CoM and the edge. All these factors makes the ski grip more and it will progress towards the carving spectrum in the following figure

What I would call a pure carved turn is a turn where the ski is in the carving spectrum throughout the turn. This is not what I see in the videos above.

Here are some of the best skiers in the world doing carved turns with brushed entries in slow motion. Clearly they go through the stages described above, but in real time the turn would look pretty pure.

Sorry @Metaphor_ if this is too far off topic.

Nice video. What I see in it are air born skiers for the top part of the turns with an abrupt engagement. That kind of surface is particularly difficult to ski as the edges don't grip if not on very high edge angles. To me it looks like there is a big difference between the pivoted part and the carved. Also, their up-and-down movement is huge. I really would like to see some more videos of this kind of brushed engaged/carved turn.

@ Jamt - would that not be the amount of reverse pivoting the ski would have to do in order to hook up into edge locked carving? I think that's pretty much exactly what I have been saying. Its the "transition" phase that is the challenge. I know that from my own demos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350

Given its possible origin, maybe we shouldn't abandon the use of the term "skid":

"5. an instance of sliding, esp sideways

[C17: perhaps of Scandinavian origin; compare ski]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014"

(And great video!   Personal goal for this season is moguls...)

This is pretty good:

3. To move sideways in a turn because of insufficient banking. Used of an airplane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

@ Jamt - would that not be the amount of reverse pivoting the ski would have to do in order to hook up into edge locked carving? I think that's pretty much exactly what I have been saying. Its the "transition" phase that is the challenge. I know that from my own demos.

I think I see what you mean, but when I read the term "de-pivot" you used I was thinking more of a super-stivot type of turn, not brushed entry. The picture to the right above has a huge attack angle, it is primarily intended to show the different spectrums, not a brushed turn. Anyway, if you look at the ski boot rather than the tip there is not much de-pivoting going on and if the initial angle is small that is mainly due to the ski locking into the groove, not de-pivoting by the skier. Since you have a high angle here, it is more important what happens fore-aft than rotary.

Agree though that the transition is the tricky part, especially when the initial attack angle is large.

Here are some turns with de-pivoting. Different than brushing. This is a skill that very few have.

A coach once told me that there were three types of turns.

Carved

Skidded

Checked

Any turn in my mind can combined aspects of all three.

"Checked" was his term for things like a hockey stop, or other braking motions.  Hop turns are checked turns.

I too feel that the word "skid" is not a bad word.

Kind of like "manipulate" which has such a negative tone to it, but it is what an artist does with clay to create a sculpture.  It is what a conductor does with an orchestra.  It is not an inherently bad concept.  It can be abused of course.  Manipulation can be an evil trait.

Skidding can be abused too, but it is a useful concept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz

A coach once told me that there were three types of turns.

Carved

Skidded

Checked

Any turn in my mind can combined aspects of all three.

"Checked" was his term for things like a hockey stop, or other braking motions.  Hop turns are checked turns.

I too feel that the word "skid" is not a bad word.

Kind of like "manipulate" which has such a negative tone to it, but it is what an artist does with clay to create a sculpture.  It is what a conductor does with an orchestra.  It is not an inherently bad concept.  It can be abused of course.  Manipulation can be an evil trait.

Skidding can be abused too, but it is a useful concept.

For me its not a big problem to dump the word skidding and replace it with brushing or feathering. Still I feel the context of the situation rules wether its good or bad. A couple of examples:

- The racer skidded most of his turns, no wonder he was 10 sec slower than the winner (bad)

- The racer skidded in places where he could not carve cleanly and won the competition (good)

- The instructor thought us today how to make medium radius skidded parallel turns (good)

Anyway, I like the carved/skidded/checked concept. This is why:

Carved

Turn radius depending on ski radius. Slow Line Fast concept. Skis locked onto their edges. Turning by tipping. No brakes. Think of ski racing or experts skiing on groomers. Racer must.

Skidded

Turn radius can be vastly adjusted depending on intent. Skis are brushing over the snow at an attack angle instead of edge locked carving. Turning by initiating the attack angle at the transition by unweighting and/or pivoting the skis. Beginner to expert level. Wedging to open parallel skiing in all kind of conditions. Good speed control. Ski instructor must.

Checked

Checked turns are a short turn version of skidded turns where the edges are checked at the end of the turn for better rebound and effortless transition. Short Line Slow concept. Think bump skiing. Good to expert level. Upper level skiing must.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz

A coach once told me that there were three types of turns.

Carved

Skidded

Checked

Any turn in my mind can combined aspects of all three.

"Checked" was his term for things like a hockey stop, or other braking motions.  Hop turns are checked turns.

I too feel that the word "skid" is not a bad word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6

Quote:

...

- The instructor taught us today how to make medium radius skidded parallel turns (good)

...

Anyway, I like the carved/skidded/checked concept. This is why:

...

Skidded

Turn radius can be vastly adjusted depending on intent. Skis are brushing over the snow at an attack angle instead of edge locked carving. Turning by initiating the attack angle at the transition by unweighting and/or pivoting the skis. Beginner to expert level. Wedging to open parallel skiing in all kind of conditions. Good speed control. Ski instructor must.

Metaphor_:  This is a great thread!

SkiMangoJazz/tdk6:  For the intermediate level of students, I introduce carving.  But I like the carved/skidded/checked concept.  And I think I am emphasizing carving too much in my intermediate lessons.  And in my personal skiing, I think I have emphasized carving too much.  I think I must respect and refine my skidded turns this season.  And I think my students will benefit from the carved/skidded/checked continuum.  Is it really a continuum?  I think if it is said in this order it becomes a useful Edging Skill Continuum:

skidded/carved/checked.

When I joined this forum, I said I was over over-thinking skiing and want to teach doing, and only after having the student do, querying and explaining the experience by thinking.  I still believe and will do that.

However, even if I never can ski at Level III, I really need to start thinking like a Level III, which focuses on BLENDING skills.  The SkiMangoJazz/tdk6 skidded/carved/checked Edging Continuum is a great introduction to the concept of Blended skiing.

True it focuses on one skill only, Edging, but it is a great introduction to the Blending concept which is easily introduced to one skill then having additional skills added (i.e., "blended in") such as Rotary/pivot and Pressure ski-to-ski and fore to aft.

There is a very high level of discussion on this forum.  Although, the racing stuff is over my head, when you guys and gals start focusing on instruction, I find that thinking about what you guys and gals show (videos) and say about instruction well worth thinking about.

Thank you.

Edited by Tim Hodgson - 9/7/16 at 8:06am

edited to acknowledge acknowledgment

Edited by SkiMangoJazz - 9/7/16 at 9:00am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Here are some turns with de-pivoting. Different than brushing. This is a skill that very few have.

Darn.  This is what I get.  Who's SME?

Me too.

Great thread topic.  Things are getting complicated here and we aren't even on page 4 yet.  Here's how I organize all this stuff in my mind.  Others may divide it up differently, if at all.

There are at least four ways to skid the top of a turn.  I wouldn't call all of them "feathering."

1.  DRIFTED top of turn:  In this version, the skier is moving somewhat slowly down the hill; these are not "dynamic" turns.  As skis travel across the hill at the end of the old turn, skier holds onto the old counter, facing more down the hill than the skis.  Skier flattens the skis in a release, and waits.  With the skis flat, they are free to turn across the surface of the snow, to point downhill.  This happens as the skier's body unwinds.  The ski tips "seek the fall line," skidding across the snow.  They turn seemingly on their own.  Pivot point should be under arch.  Legs turn under a stable upper body (femurs rotate in hip sockets), but this is not the result of active muscle action.  The stretch reflex is at work.

2.  STEERED top of turn:  In this version, the skier takes a more active role in turning the flattened skis across the surface of the snow.  As in #1, the skier ends the turn while holding onto old counter, flattens skis in a release, but does not wait.  Instead, the skier actively enhances the natural tendency of the flattish skis to turn as the body unwinds.  With the addition of some manual, muscular turning of the skis, the distance and time it takes for the skis to point down the fall line is shortened.  Pivot point needs to be under the arch and the rotation needs to be subtle and progressive in order to avoid losing grip at the bottom of the turn.  Legs turn under a stable upper body (femurs rotate in hip sockets).  With skill these can be very round turns.  The goal of a well-done steered turn is a shortened radius and some friction, both of which add some speed control.     **One "terminal intermediate" turn mechanism is a perversion of a steered turn.  The skier quickly and forcefully rotates the skis with muscular action all the way past the fall line; the pivot point is often in front of the boots; the action can feel like a heel-thrust.  The braking action is strong, rather than subtle.  The roundness of the turn is lost because the manual rotation of the skis is not progressive; the whole thing is overdone.  The bottom of the turn suffers from lack of grip and the skis slip downhill diagonally.  This turn is commonly seen in recreational skiers used to skiing on hard snow.  The desire to control speed exclusively by braking (instead of by turn shape) dominates these turns, but on especially hard snow or steep groomers this approach fails at offering the wanted control.  These are Z-shaped turns.

3.  BRUSHED-CARVE top of turn:  These are the dynamic turns that we often lust over in videos linked here on EpicSki.  The skier is capable of carving arc-to-arc turns at speed, but chooses to shorten the top of the turn beyond what the ski is capable of doing when tails follow tips in that top half.  The result is shorter radius turns in a narrower corridor, thus slower downhill-travel.  To get that extra turning to happen, the skier does not manually rotate flattened skis across the surface of the snow as in #1 and 2 above.  Instead, at the end of the old turn, the skier releases and tips the skis onto new edges while they are still pointing across the hill, and the skier's body moves downhill over the skis.  The skier times things and weights the skis such that the shovels grip the snow but the tails slip out.  This tail slippage is progressively managed to keep the top half of the turn round, and everything is timed so that the skis begin to grip at or just after the fall line.  This whole process is similar to "oversteering" a car or bike.  The skis are edged as this happens, not flattened as in #1 and 2 above.  Legs turn under a stable upper body (femurs rotate in hip sockets).

4.  STIVOT top of turn:  This is a high-end race tactic.  Skier releases, tips skis onto new edges with precise control of that edging, quickly and actively pivots skis to do something like a sideways hockey-slide at the top of the turn.  Skis skid sideways across the hill.  Skier then does some high-end magic to engage the skis in an arc-to-arc carve, tails following tips, at the precise point needed to get around the gate with the least amount of lost time.  The goal is to shorten the radius while maintaining as much speed as possible.  Legs turn under a stable upper body (femurs rotate in hip sockets).

Edited by LiquidFeet - 9/8/16 at 12:17pm

LiquidFeet:

3.  BRUSHED-CARVE top of turn:  Thank you.  I never understood this.  So in addition to fore/aft Pressure.  We have fore/aft Edging in a brushed-carved turn.  Never knew, never tried to do this.  Now I have additional homework for this Season from you.

4.  STIVOT top of turn:  Thank you.  I never knew this existed.  Since I (only recently) learned about CoM release (although I think I do it, just never knew it) which do you mean when you say "Skier releases"...?  Is that CoM release or Edge release?

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350

LiquidFeet:

3.  BRUSHED-CARVE top of turn:  Thank you.  I never understood this.  So in addition to fore/aft Pressure.  We have fore/aft Edging in a brushed-carved turn.  Never knew, never tried to do this.  Now I have additional homework for this Season from you.

4.  STIVOT top of turn:  Thank you.  I never knew this existed.  Since I (only recently) learned about CoM release (although I think I do it, just never knew it) which do you mean when you say "Skier releases"...?  Is that CoM release or Edge release?  Having never done a stivot, I kept my description brief, hoping not to put foot in mouth.  Answer to your question to 4 is probably either/or, depending, since race turns are all so different and the skill-set of racers is so high.

Jamt just linked a slo-mo video (post 66 above) of Marcel Hirscher engaging the skis after doing a stivot, but I can't see it.  There are other slo-mo videos of stivots out there.

Here's one.  The stivots are in the second half of the video.  These are waay beyond the reach of recreational skiers who have some problems on ice.  This is not "feathering" the top of the turn.

Edited by LiquidFeet - 9/7/16 at 9:36am

Ha Ha!  Ok Metaphor_ and LiquidFeet:  Why isn't at 1:10 that the feathering at the top of the turn that Metaphor_ started this thread about?  Maybe a form of almost violently athletic/aggressive "feathering," but feathering nonetheless?

Maybe I need a precise definition of the term "feathering."  I like the "ski, skid, skied" Scandinavian terminology myself, but whatever.  What is "feathering"?

That is certainly "skidding" to me.  Intentional skidding (i.e., Hawaiian shaved ice making intentional rotational/steering/pivoting edging) but skidding nonetheless.  No?

Also, there you go with SkiMangoJazz/tdk6 continuum of skid/carve/check.  Stivot, to a checked edge set, then carve to the gate. No?

Friggin' awesome video!

What does the word feather bring to mind?  Feathers are things that tickle.  They are in pillows, and jackets.  The don't weigh much.

Feathers are soft and light-weight, gentle torture tools for kids who want to be tickled on the bottoms of their feet.

"Feathering," when I've heard the term applied to skiing, has implied a softy done, delicately handled, gentle bit of skidding added to the top of the turn.

My list of 4 was actually 4 ways of skidding the top of a turn, not 4 ways to feather it.  My bad.  I'll go edit it right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

"Feathering," when I've heard the term applied to skiing, has implied a softy done, delicately handled, gentle bit of skidding added to the top of the turn.

That's my impression as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

Feathers are soft and light-weight, gentle torture tools for kids who want to be tickled on the bottoms of their feet.

Hmmm.... not sure if its a gentle torture tool for kids by itself. would say its a torture tool for adults as well.

When you "Feather" the prop on an airplane you rotate the angle of the prop to take less bite out of the air.

To finish a turn correctly, it must be started correctly.

The turn must be correctly started in the top 1/3rd of the turn.  The turn has to be set before the fall line is reached.  The turn radius set in the upper 1/3rd of the turn sets the radius for the rest of the turn.  Your choice--lock the edges in or don't, let them scrub speed.  The movement looks about the same.  The skier needs to be over on the new inside edges, angulating and countering, before the fall line is reached.  This may be upside down skiing where the skier shows the bases of his skis to people uphill from him if in fact the new inside edges are engaged.  It works the same regardless of snow condition--the radius needs to be tighter and/or more scrubbing if speeds will be higher on hard snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

So you need to initiate a pivot at the start of the turn and then later on un-pivot back to edge locked carving. This is why I think that brushing the turn all the way through is a better option than transitioning from brushing into carving mid turn. Can be done as I showed in the video but I find it more practical to brush through the whole turn as the transition from brushing into carving is not very fluid and carving generates a lot of speed.

In my head it makes more sense to feather the top of the turn and return to carving the bottom, than to brush trough the whole turn with a consistent steering angle. That is if the intent is to reduce the turn radius and use the reduced turn radius to control speed.

Developing steering angle by whatever means, from passive oversteering to active muscular redirection,  makes the ski point in a different direction than the COM and the ski for that matter is traveling.That makes the skis rotate but it does not necessarily provide the turning forces that turn the skier. The turning forces are created when the skis are engaged by putting them on edge, aligning forces and increasing pressure. Engaging the skis kills the steering angle and makes the ski gradually point more in the direction the ski and COM is traveling. And engaging the skis is what turns the skier. The turn radius is probably at the smallest at some level of steering angle and engaging, but the large steering angle is short lived since engaging kills the steering angle. No need for "unpivoting" to reduce the steering angle. And like @Jamt says I don't think the transition to carving has to be abrupt.

When you say unpivot I think more of the fase in the "stivot" used by racers where the skis are often redirected too far before they are pointed in the desired direction, reducing the steering angle a bit. This unpivoting happens just before the skis are engaged while the skis are still free to be redirected. The other type
of reducing the then happens as the skis are engaded.

Some interesting unpivoting going on by CSIA Sebastien Michel in this video at around 1:25:

I remember that I have seen a better/longer video of the same move by a canadian (Seb?) but now I can't find it. Anyone?

Can't explain why, but I would love to be able to do that unpivoting move as well as Sebastien Michel in the video. I think the trick to be able to unpivot midturn is to pivot the skis from the center, using leg rotation under a stable core. If the tail is displaced much more than the tip then it will be hard to reverse the direction of the pivoting quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Here are some turns with de-pivoting. Different than brushing. This is a skill that very few have.

Darn.  This is what I get.  Who's SME?

What you missed was the skier setting his skis with an aggressive steering angle (skis pointing in a different direction from their (and the skier's) direction of travel) and edge angle (skis tipped strongly on edge) and the skier maintains those angles patiently while the skis are skidding until the skis dig in and begin to carve.   The initial set is too much to have the direction of travel change all at once to begin the carve, but the carve eventually takes hold.  I wouldn't call it feathering, more like hammering.  But the opposite of a "check" turn.

Ghost: Not feathering but still a form of skidding.  No?

I assumed that the racer's move was a stivot to a check edge set.  But that was only an assumption, because I have never even considered the stivot move until today.

So what is a "check" turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smear

In my head it makes more sense to feather the top of the turn and return to carving the bottom, than to brush trough the whole turn with a consistent steering angle. That is if the intent is to reduce the turn radius and use the reduced turn radius to control speed.

Developing steering angle by whatever means, from passive oversteering to active muscular redirection,  makes the ski point in a different direction than the COM and the ski for that matter is traveling.That makes the skis rotate but it does not necessarily provide the turning forces that turn the skier. The turning forces are created when the skis are engaged by putting them on edge, aligning forces and increasing pressure. Engaging the skis kills the steering angle and makes the ski gradually point more in the direction the ski and COM is traveling. And engaging the skis is what turns the skier. The turn radius is probably at the smallest at some level of steering angle and engaging, but the large steering angle is short lived since engaging kills the steering angle. No need for "unpivoting" to reduce the steering angle. And like @Jamt says I don't think the transition to carving has to be abrupt.

When you say unpivot I think more of the fase in the "stivot" used by racers where the skis are often redirected too far before they are pointed in the desired direction, reducing the steering angle a bit. This unpivoting happens just before the skis are engaged while the skis are still free to be redirected. The other type
of reducing the then happens as the skis are engaded.

Some interesting unpivoting going on by CSIA Sebastien Michel in this video at around 1:25:

I remember that I have seen a better/longer video of the same move by a canadian (Seb?) but now I can't find it. Anyone?

Can't explain why, but I would love to be able to do that unpivoting move as well as Sebastien Michel in the video. I think the trick to be able to unpivot midturn is to pivot the skis from the center, using leg rotation under a stable core. If the tail is displaced much more than the tip then it will be hard to reverse the direction of the pivoting quickly.

One of my favorite videos and you zeroed in on one of my favorite parts.

The way I look at what is happening is the transition from a state of the skier turning the skis (rotary skills) to a state where the skis are turning the skier (edging skills)

I love how he gets there by shortening his inside leg to rapidly create edge and how he presses into the boots to get those shovels bending.

A check turn, as I understand the term, is where a lot of pressure is applied to a greatly tipped ski at the very end of the turn.  Usually, but not necessarily the skis are skidding before the edge set and carve during and after it.  Also usually the skier pushes off the edge set to get his momentum going the other way, and start the new turn with the skis drifting the other way shortly after the edge set as the skier transfers some rotational inertia down to the ski.  Repeat mirror image ad nauseum going down the hill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350

Ghost: Not feathering but still a form of skidding.  No?

I assumed that the racer's move was a stivot to a check edge set.  But that was only an assumption, because I have never even considered the stivot move until today.

So what is a "check" turn?

Yes, the skis are sliding sideways until they have enough traction to finish the direction change in a carve, the direction change being started in a skid.  Important thing to note is that the skier just hangs on and waits for the skis to dig in once the initial edge angle and steering angle is set.  He typically does not and does not need to re-adjust anything (although an expert skier may choose to change anything anytime).  Once the skis are carving the turn shape can is changed without recourse to skidding.

10-4.  Dang, yet another example of the result being an intended but indirect outcome rather than being the result of a direct and immediate action?

So, sliding to a terrain-based Edge "catch."  A "tactic?"

Rather, than "setting" an Edge like in a hockey stop with an abrupt physical downward pressure movement?  A "movement?"

I am going to have to develop an additional or different way of looking at the deployment (Blending?) of Skills in this sport.

Thanks, Ghost.

It's a lot like drifting a corner on a bike and doing a bit of a power slide at turn exit; eventually, if you start it right, the bike hooks up nicely without having to adjust the throttle from WFO.   Of course if you start it wrong, you're in the weeds.

@ Jamt -

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz

A coach once told me that there were three types of turns.

Carved

Skidded

Checked

Any turn in my mind can combined aspects of all three.

"Checked" was his term for things like a hockey stop, or other braking motions.  Hop turns are checked turns.

I too feel that the word "skid" is not a bad word.

Kind of like "manipulate" which has such a negative tone to it, but it is what an artist does with clay to create a sculpture.  It is what a conductor does with an orchestra.  It is not an inherently bad concept.  It can be abused of course.  Manipulation can be an evil trait.

Skidding can be abused too, but it is a useful concept.

For me its not a big problem to dump the word skidding and replace it with brushing or feathering. Still I feel the context of the situation rules wether its good or bad. A couple of examples:

- The racer skidded most of his turns, no wonder he was 10 sec slower than the winner (bad)

- The racer skidded in places where he could not carve cleanly and won the competition (good)

- The instructor thought us today how to make medium radius skidded parallel turns (good)

Anyway, I like the carved/skidded/checked concept. This is why:

Carved

Turn radius depending on ski radius. Slow Line Fast concept. Skis locked onto their edges. Turning by tipping. No brakes. Think of ski racing or experts skiing on groomers. Racer must.

Skidded

Turn radius can be vastly adjusted depending on intent. Skis are brushing over the snow at an attack angle instead of edge locked carving. Turning by initiating the attack angle at the transition by unweighting and/or pivoting the skis. Beginner to expert level. Wedging to open parallel skiing in all kind of conditions. Good speed control. Ski instructor must.

Checked

Checked turns are a short turn version of skidded turns where the edges are checked at the end of the turn for better rebound and effortless transition. Short Line Slow concept. Think bump skiing. Good to expert level. Upper level skiing must.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smear

In my head it makes more sense to feather the top of the turn and return to carving the bottom, than to brush trough the whole turn with a consistent steering angle. That is if the intent is to reduce the turn radius and use the reduced turn radius to control speed.

Developing steering angle by whatever means, from passive oversteering to active muscular redirection,  makes the ski point in a different direction than the COM and the ski for that matter is traveling.That makes the skis rotate but it does not necessarily provide the turning forces that turn the skier. The turning forces are created when the skis are engaged by putting them on edge, aligning forces and increasing pressure. Engaging the skis kills the steering angle and makes the ski gradually point more in the direction the ski and COM is traveling. And engaging the skis is what turns the skier. The turn radius is probably at the smallest at some level of steering angle and engaging, but the large steering angle is short lived since engaging kills the steering angle. No need for "unpivoting" to reduce the steering angle. And like @Jamt says I don't think the transition to carving has to be abrupt.

When you say unpivot I think more of the fase in the "stivot" used by racers where the skis are often redirected too far before they are pointed in the desired direction, reducing the steering angle a bit. This unpivoting happens just before the skis are engaged while the skis are still free to be redirected. The other type
of reducing the then happens as the skis are engaded.

Some interesting unpivoting going on by CSIA Sebastien Michel in this video at around 1:25:

I remember that I have seen a better/longer video of the same move by a canadian (Seb?) but now I can't find it. Anyone?

Can't explain why, but I would love to be able to do that unpivoting move as well as Sebastien Michel in the video. I think the trick to be able to unpivot midturn is to pivot the skis from the center, using leg rotation under a stable core. If the tail is displaced much more than the tip then it will be hard to reverse the direction of the pivoting quickly.

That is the same drill I was trying to demo in my clip earlier. That's what I meant by un-pivoting. There is a huge difference between the skid/stivot than carving. No gentle transition. Its because we want to skid and then we want to carve. We are not aiming for a fluid transition. We skid and when mission accomplished we carve. Mission accomplished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

Jamt just linked a slo-mo video (post 66 above) of Marcel Hirscher engaging the skis after doing a stivot, but I can't see it.  There are other slo-mo videos of stivots out there.

Here's one.  The stivots are in the second half of the video.  These are waay beyond the reach of recreational skiers who have some problems on ice.  This is not "feathering" the top of the turn.

This is a much better video than the one Jamt linked. Here they are separated from each other and we can clearly see what is going on.

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