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Help me understand this inside ski - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

In addition to the outside stuff, IMO you need more patience. A GS turns takes roughly twice the time of an SL turn and in order to be constantly moving your body parts you need to slow things down, otherwise you end of in a partial park-and-ride. Now you are kind o static from the fall line and a bit forward, exactly where you need be be dynamic in order to keep the grip on ice. If you do it right it should feel like the ski edge is firmly planted into the ice, with no tendency to let go. On ice you need more dynamic skiing, but the natural tendency is to freeze up and become too static.

 

Jamt, can you give a physics-type explanation for why "being dynamic" helps one "keep the grip on ice" as opposed to park-n-ride?

I'm not looking for formulas or numbers.  I am wondering why I always feel more control if I keep moving instead of parking.  It's not just because my muscles are primed to respond better to changes.  There's something else going on, and it has to do with the ski-snow interaction.

 

I'm wondering if you can break that down and explain it.

post #32 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Jamt, can you give a physics-type explanation for why "being dynamic" helps one "keep the grip on ice" as opposed to park-n-ride?

I'm not looking for formulas or numbers.  I am wondering why I always feel more control if I keep moving instead of parking.  It's not just because my muscles are primed to respond better to changes.  There's something else going on, and it has to do with the ski-snow interaction.

 

I'm wondering if you can break that down and explain it.

When you are static you are pushing the skis down into the snow with approximately your weight. If you are dynamic you can push them down with a lot more force. Timing is very important.

post #33 of 59
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

When you are static you are pushing the skis down into the snow with approximately your weight. If you are dynamic you can push them down with a lot more force. Timing is very important.

 

For every time in a turn when there's extra downward pressure there must be another time when the pressure lightens.

 

When I read your response, at first it sounded to me like you were saying that equalizing the ski-snow downward pressure throughout the turn would cause the skis to loosen their grip somewhere along in the turn, and that moving in such a way as to make the pressure alternate from heavy to light will keep the skis gripping - when that alternation is timed well.  

 

But as I write this I don't think that's what you mean.

 

I think that you know the pressure isn't going to be equalizable throughout a whole turn, if the turn has any speed.  So managing the timing and (and intensity) of the inevitable pressure changes will enable the skier to maintain that grip, if skillfully done.  Thus a non-static skier, whose movements are targeting grip through pressure manipulation, is likely to feel more in control on hard snow than a static one who is allowing pressures to build and decline on their own.  

 

In other words, any "parking" is a bad idea because there will be un-managed pressure changes that can loosen the skis.    

 

Yes?  No?  

post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 
 

 

For every time in a turn when there's extra downward pressure there must be another time when the pressure lightens.

 

When I read your response, at first it sounded to me like you were saying that equalizing the ski-snow downward pressure throughout the turn would cause the skis to loosen their grip somewhere along in the turn, and that moving in such a way as to make the pressure alternate from heavy to light will keep the skis gripping - when that alternation is timed well.  

 

But as I write this I don't think that's what you mean.

 

I think that you know the pressure isn't going to be equalizable throughout a whole turn, if the turn has any speed.  So managing the timing and (and intensity) of the inevitable pressure changes will enable the skier to maintain that grip, if skillfully done.  Thus a non-static skier, whose movements are targeting grip through pressure manipulation, is likely to feel more in control on hard snow than a static one who is allowing pressures to build and decline on their own.  

 

In other words, any "parking" is a bad idea because there will be un-managed pressure changes that can loosen the skis.    

 

Yes?  No?  

 

Equalizing is a great term. Meeting the naturally building forces of a turn with an equal and opposite force is what provides a good skier with a stable moving platform from which to mindlessly exact our minute instinctual adjustments. Riding just ahead of the forces of a turn with the right line and rhythmically timed mix of flexion, extension, angulation and rotation and staying out in front of them, like the porpoise riding the head of a ship's wake, you are paralleling the graphed lines of the final directional force from the snow surface to the skis with an equal and opposite final directional force from our feet to our skis. Our ability to parallel these lines within the facets of a full body set of concurrent progressively dynamically progressive, cyclic, rhythmic, motor patterns can be a quick measurement of technical ability.

post #35 of 59
Thread Starter 
@E350 You requested a video with shorter skis. Here's a shot with my Bandit B1 skis. It's probably difficult to see anything due to the angle, but it's all I've got right now.
Yes, I seem to mess up the first left turn. Just rub it in. wink.gif

post #36 of 59

Carl:  Thanks for posting that video.  However, I am losing confidence in my MA abilities (after my whole waist steering thing with razie and I still don't see it the way he sees it.  You can rub that in!).  But here goes.  Take it for what it is worth (although I do owe you beers...):

 

You are likely an intuitive/doer snowboarder. And at this point still a thinking skier.

 

I see the same movement pattern in your short ski long radius turns that I saw in your long ski long radius turns.

 

You are banking to the inside, leaning on your (albeit flexed) uphill ski.  Look at your downhill hand up in the air, etc.

 

And I am not just talking about your first left turn when you fall to the inside and your right hand goes up.  I even see it at 0.06 on your first turn to the right.  I tell my students to make the letter "C" from their downhill boot to their downhill shoulder to get the pressure and edge on the downhill ski.  In fact, for intermediates, I have them do "airplane turns" * touching their boot with their downhill hand and raising their uphill shoulder and hand to be parallel to the slope.  This causes the joints to go from a rectangle (with parallel sides looked at from front) to a parallelogram and puts both the upper and lower ski on corresponding (as opposed to opposing) edges and places the pressure on the downhill ski.  I am sorry that I have to focus primarily on your hands, but since the video is made from a distance it is the telltale sign which is most visable to me.

 

I think your video will be helpful.  Let's see what others see.

 

* Don't practice these types of turns in your airplane.  An actual airplane turns the exact opposite direction to this drill.


Edited by Tim Hodgson - 9/1/16 at 3:46pm
post #37 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

When you are static you are pushing the skis down into the snow with approximately your weight. If you are dynamic you can push them down with a lot more force. Timing is very important.

 

For every time in a turn when there's extra downward pressure there must be another time when the pressure lightens.

 

When I read your response, at first it sounded to me like you were saying that equalizing the ski-snow downward pressure throughout the turn would cause the skis to loosen their grip somewhere along in the turn, and that moving in such a way as to make the pressure alternate from heavy to light will keep the skis gripping - when that alternation is timed well.  

 

But as I write this I don't think that's what you mean.

 

I think that you know the pressure isn't going to be equalizable throughout a whole turn, if the turn has any speed.  So managing the timing and (and intensity) of the inevitable pressure changes will enable the skier to maintain that grip, if skillfully done.  Thus a non-static skier, whose movements are targeting grip through pressure manipulation, is likely to feel more in control on hard snow than a static one who is allowing pressures to build and decline on their own.  

 

In other words, any "parking" is a bad idea because there will be un-managed pressure changes that can loosen the skis.    

 

Yes?  No?  


Averaged over time, your downwards force will be your weight.  You could ski with little variation in your downwards force, keeping it more or less equal to your weight, and if traction requirements to prevent the turn from going sideways on you weren't too high (hero snow or not too demanding a turn), you would be fine.  However if traction demands are greater, e.g. sharp high speed turn on boiler plate, you need to have more downward force pressing that edge into the snow, but you don't need it at transition (no turn force required); you need it at the apex.  So let gravity accelerate you downwards (stop or slow rising, start or increase descending) around the transition and accelerate yourself upwards with extra down force around the apex.  Vary the pressing into the snow with time so it occurs when you need it.  Bank it during transition, spend it at the apex.


Edited by Ghost - 9/2/16 at 2:37pm
post #38 of 59

Edit:  My first stupid question asked again:  Where is the "apex" in this drawing from Bob Barnes' Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing:

 

 

http://www.epicski.com/a/the-complete-encyclopedia-of-skiing-epicski-skiing-glossary

 

(And don't forget to MA Carl's video in post #35, above!)


Edited by Tim Hodgson - 9/1/16 at 4:37pm
post #39 of 59

At the "i" in "carving"

post #40 of 59
post #41 of 59

Thank you Ghost and mowmow!

 

Don't forget to MA thread starter Carl R's video in post #35, above!

post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by E350 View Post
 

Thank you Ghost and mowmow!

 

Don't forget to MA thread starter Carl R's video in post #35, above!


I'm no instructor, but since you ask, I do see too much load put on the inside ski.   I don't see a lot of forward pressure on the tips, especially the tip of the outside ski (say the amount of pressure you would need to make a FIS 35 m ski tip bend into a turn  with reference to above 35 m carving posts), but it is a Bandit B2!  If you did put pressure on that tip it would fold up.  It is a relaxed forgiving cruizing ski.  It encourages a central stance in the fore-aft plain. 

post #43 of 59
Here it is. From your first turn it starts out badly. Heading straight down the fall line before your on the edges. Then after the late edge set leaning into the hill. That puts your weight on the inside ski. One other detail. Work on your upper/lower seperation. Your upper body faces across the hill instead of down the hill. Anyway that's what I have.
post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


Averaged over time, your downwards force will be your weight.  

If you don't use your force dynamically you will eat snow sooner or later, and that will change your weight :duck:

post #45 of 59
Hate to say it you Bum Steer. Even though you are carving you are pulling the ski around. Don't do this.

Look up Ligety videos and compare them with what you do. While he is the extreme of what happens it gives a good visual of what you should strive for,. BTW, if you think you final look like him, you likely have the right position, but you definitely won't have those extreme angles (or even be close, we all dream). I like his earlier videos from '12, '13 and earlier Sochi.

In comparison you are inside the edge, were as he is over the edge. Your body position and lack of rotation in the upper body controls this, Hence, Bum Steer.

The longer the skis the less overall pressure on the edge, the more you have to apply it.
post #46 of 59
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

 

If you don't use your force dynamically you will eat snow sooner or later, and that will change your weight :duck:


there's some physics we can't refute !

 

 :rotflmao: 

post #47 of 59

Carl, all these brainyaks, have gone onto esoteric stuff way over my head. 

 

But I suggest that you do the following to improve your skiing and specifically the foot to foot pressure/weight allocation. 

 

Get on the tightest radius slalom skis in your quiver and make the tightest carved turns you can with a rhythmic one-two-one-two cadence. 

 

For you to sequentially make tight carved turns with a one-two-one-two cadence and not have your body fall into the inside of the turn, or to do an unintentional 360, or to skid out laterally, your Center of Mass will necessarily have to find its Base of Support primarily on your outside, downhill ski's edge.   

 

I will go find a video.  Be right back.  Here you go:

 

This is the lateral foot to foot Pressure move exaggerated (I teach by exaggeration so you get the feeling first, then we can dial it back to refine it) ignore the fact that Jonny is teaching on mogul terrain.  You need to learn it on flat terrain.  Pause it at 1:42 and look for the letter "C" his body makes:

 

 

Here is the same move refined on flat terrain with Edge added to the Pressure.  Can you see the same letter "C" here (i.e., lateral "angulation")?:

 

 

At first these two videos may not seem related, but they are the same lateral foot to new downhill/outside foot Pressure allocation move -- just with more refinement and with Edge in the second video.  In the second video, in some of the PSIA Level III's who are skiing the foot to foot Pressure move is so refined (i.e., dynamic constant movement) so as not to be apparent -- but they are doing it.  Watch the racer use that same up and then down onto new downhill ski Edge set and Pressure SNAP movement at 0:44 in the second video.  It is the same extreme foot to downhill foot ski Pressure move (but with Edge set) that Jonny is showing and exaggerating (statically) in the first video.


Edited by Tim Hodgson - 9/2/16 at 4:20pm
post #48 of 59

It looks to me like you're inside knee needs to turn into the hill earlier. Focus on keeping space between your knees and turning all your joints at the same time. Try lining things up going slower then speed up and see if it feels different.

post #49 of 59
Something looks completely off to me. The most interesting turns were when you stopped. I agree with everyone else who said you are out of balance. I can't tell if it is ramp angle or cant that is off, or both. You can get away with a lot being off on slaloms, but GS skis, especially 35s. Until you get the geometry worked out, you are having to use technique to find balance rather than drive the skis.
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Jamt, can you give a physics-type explanation for why "being dynamic" helps one "keep the grip on ice" as opposed to park-n-ride?

I'm not looking for formulas or numbers.  I am wondering why I always feel more control if I keep moving instead of parking.  It's not just because my muscles are primed to respond better to changes.  There's something else going on, and it has to do with the ski-snow interaction.

 

I'm wondering if you can break that down and explain it.

 

Firstly, skiing is a dynamic action.  Dynamic, gradual, continuous, action applied to motion provide more control. 

 

Let's relate it to something we all do - mostly without thinking - driving a car.   When I steer into a turn, I swivel the steering wheel slowly a little bit at a time until reaching the apex, at which point I "un-swivel" it back to center when exiting the turn.  This dynamic action - in steering - allows more control to direction and attitude, depending upon speed and surface condition.   I am "controlling" the physical forces of a turn with the steering wheel.  The more I control the dynamics of steering, turning the wheel, timing the turning, the better I control the forces affecting direction and position through a turn.  The dynamic action is best applied throughout the turn, spread out over time, because that gives more control over the motions of the car in pitch, roll, or yaw.  The more sudden or abrupt the wheel turns, the more likely the forces applied to the cars motion will overcome it's position on the road and lead to a slide, or spin.  The smoother and more gradual the application of the steering wheel the easier it is to balance and control the car's direction.

 

This is most like using the foot to control the dynamic tilting of the ski as we move through a turn.  A little bit at the top, the most at the apex, and reducing tilt through the transition.  Gradually.  

post #51 of 59

@doski, my current thinking on this is that my actions, whatever they are, need to happen before (in time) momentum and other forces get a chance to do their thing unhindered.

They should not be allowed to act unhindered, unshaped, unguided.

 

In other words, I need to stay ahead of the forces that are in play.  

If I were a politician, I'd say I need to control the message.  Same thing.

 

 

 

 

PS:  How come you don't want to do MA in that other thread?  Slopes aren't open.  Do it.

post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

@doski, my current thinking on this is that my actions, whatever they are, need to happen before (in time) momentum and other forces get a chance to do their thing unhindered.

They should not be allowed to act unhindered, unshaped, unguided.

 

In other words, I need to stay ahead of the forces that are in play.  

If I were a politician, I'd say I need to control the message.  Same thing.

 

 

 

 

PS:  How come you don't want to do MA in that other thread?  Slopes aren't open.  Do it.

 

 

Yep - that's pretty cool.   So, if we are dynamic - a rheostat instead of a switch - then the "before" part is timed with a minimal dynamic action, right? 

 

It's not that it isn't happening or that there are times when there is no dynamic action.  it is, as you describe, "in time" with the needs of the skiers motion.  The cool thing about dynamics is the advantage of starting the action - within a complete turn, a sequence of turns, or during a whole run - is that it anticipates.  Dynamic anticipation, some have called it.  It not only prepares the skier for what is to happen, it puts the skier in a place, to control what may happen.  Not just staying ahead of forces, but creating and managing the forces we want.  

 

I did provide some opinion in that other thread - a focus on balance in a centered stance, independent leg action, and a kinetic chain that starts with the feet.   

 

 

post #53 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by doski View Post
 

 

 

Yep - that's pretty cool.   So, if we are dynamic - a rheostat instead of a switch - then the "before" part is timed with a minimal dynamic action, right? 

 

It's not that it isn't happening or that there are times when there is no dynamic action.  it is, as you describe, "in time" with the needs of the skiers motion.  The cool thing about dynamics is the advantage of starting the action - within a complete turn, a sequence of turns, or during a whole run - is that it anticipates.  Dynamic anticipation, some have called it.  It not only prepares the skier for what is to happen, it puts the skier in a place, to control what may happen.  Not just staying ahead of forces, but creating and managing the forces we want.  

 

I did provide some opinion in that other thread - a focus on balance in a centered stance, independent leg action, and a kinetic chain that starts with the feet.   

 

 

I admire and support your espoused views and I would like (in addition) for you to consider the dynamics of creating circular travel from inertial travel.  Gravity is always pulling us and we have no choice but to deal with it in either dynamic or abrupt ways.  Our skis however, are designed to build circles and the centripetal force that goes with it. There is no abruptness... only dynamic development.  I think this fits in with your approach. 

post #54 of 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Jamt, can you give a physics-type explanation for why "being dynamic" helps one "keep the grip on ice" as opposed to park-n-ride?

I'm not looking for formulas or numbers.  I am wondering why I always feel more control if I keep moving instead of parking.  It's not just because my muscles are primed to respond better to changes.  There's something else going on, and it has to do with the ski-snow interaction.

 

I'm wondering if you can break that down and explain it.

 

For me, gripping well on ice is a matter of separation but not at the waist where the concept is usually applied. So that the body can perform the core motor functions it needs to in order to "ride" the ankle without disturbing what is occurring under the ankle, a fine tuned level of control that provides a "dampening service" to between the ankle and ski is what is needed. That dampening is emanating from our muscles ability to remain "marginally" loose and "spongy" within the RoM confines and contractual restrictions of the large muscular contractions required to sustain the high centripetal and gravitational forces of the turn. Keeping that edge down and cutting is a proactive venture. Using smooth, round and concentric movements as stated above is part of the plan but more so as dynamically combined with a concentration of edge pressure that smoothly and progressively migrates from the shovel to somewhere behind the foot. One can think of carving in two different ways that happen concurrently. The first is the "full body" ski carve that is initiated by gross movements from a centered standpoint. Thanks to modern skis, from this standpoint alone, one can do all their carving if they wish. Unless there is lots of ice. On top of this centered moving-carving platform we can then initiate a fine fore to aft pressure migration movement only initiated from the knee down (undisturbing to the platform base) that utilizes a reverse "whittling" carving action. When we whittle a stick with a knife we use a similar dual dynamic of pushing the blade into the wood with our strong forearms while running the blade from its base to its tip with our wrists. It is the combination of these two movements that is typically required for cutting, slicing and carving anything from plastic to roast beef to injected snow. In the case of skiing the forearm is our legs, our wrist is our ankle and the pressure migration is reversed.

post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Jamt, can you give a physics-type explanation for why "being dynamic" helps one "keep the grip on ice" as opposed to park-n-ride?

I'm not looking for formulas or numbers.  I am wondering why I always feel more control if I keep moving instead of parking.  It's not just because my muscles are primed to respond better to changes.  There's something else going on, and it has to do with the ski-snow interaction.

 

I'm wondering if you can break that down and explain it.

I'll try this analogy.   Slicing the ice is a little like slicing bread with a knife.   The ski needs to be worked tip to tail.   Pressing with a knife isn't how we cut bread, we draw the knife across the bread.   The ski needs to be encouraged or allowed,  to slice.  As we draw the knife across the bread the focus of our pressure against the bread changes.  The same thing needs to occur with a ski.    The longitudinal balance point on the ski changes throughout the turn.  There needs to be movement to allow for and encourage the ski to slice.    Parking and riding doesn't encourage slicing.  One of my coaching buddies will press down on a racers shoulders as the racer compresses  to demonstrate how the skis will slide forward with this input.     YM

post #56 of 59
Rich, that's good, but don't forget *up/down pressure management. There has to be an "on" and an "off" ie flexion/extension...

zenny
post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Jamt, can you give a physics-type explanation for why "being dynamic" helps one "keep the grip on ice" as opposed to park-n-ride?

I'm not looking for formulas or numbers.  I am wondering why I always feel more control if I keep moving instead of parking.  It's not just because my muscles are primed to respond better to changes.  There's something else going on, and it has to do with the ski-snow interaction.

 

I'm wondering if you can break that down and explain it.

 

For me, gripping well on ice is a matter of separation but not at the waist where the concept is usually applied. So that the body can perform the core motor functions it needs to in order to "ride" the ankle without disturbing what is occurring under the ankle, a fine tuned level of control that provides a "dampening service" to between the ankle and ski is what is needed. That dampening is emanating from our muscles ability to remain "marginally" loose and "spongy" within the RoM confines and contractual restrictions of the large muscular contractions required to sustain the high centripetal and gravitational forces of the turn. Keeping that edge down and cutting is a proactive venture. Using smooth, round and concentric movements as stated above is part of the plan but more so as dynamically combined with a concentration of edge pressure that smoothly and progressively migrates from the shovel to somewhere behind the foot. One can think of carving in two different ways that happen concurrently. The first is the "full body" ski carve that is initiated by gross movements from a centered standpoint. Thanks to modern skis, from this standpoint alone, one can do all their carving if they wish. Unless there is lots of ice. On top of this centered moving-carving platform we can then initiate a fine fore to aft pressure migration movement only initiated from the knee down (undisturbing to the platform base) that utilizes a reverse "whittling" carving action. When we whittle a stick with a knife we use a similar dual dynamic of pushing the blade into the wood with our strong forearms while running the blade from its base to its tip with our wrists. It is the combination of these two movements that is typically required for cutting, slicing and carving anything from plastic to roast beef to injected snow. In the case of skiing the forearm is our legs, our wrist is our ankle and the pressure migration is reversed.


I'm not sure which is harder, actually doing it or explaining it but I like YOUR attempt at explaining it.  YM

post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Rich, that's good, but don't forget *up/down pressure management. There has to be an "on" and an "off" ie flexion/extension...

zenny

 

Of course! How could I forget? Thank you Zen. The eccentric progressivity and timing of vertical forces application and/or removal (ext/flex) as well as tipping is also key. Ski technique is highly systemic and it can be difficult to cordon off a discussion to a singular or a specific set of factors.

 

Another helpful key for ice is the pole plant. The pole plant is a superior option due to its tactical flexibility that can also situationally influence technique. We often talk about how the pole plant can help us with the steeps (plant out front) the bumps (plant with rhythm) but how about the ice? When skiing ice, try isolating your slight elbow and wrist flexion to only 75% of the wrist movement and you will see how the rest of the upper body follows suit with a calmness that will enhance the dampness that is focused on the ankles. 

 

Want to find an epiphany? Look for it in the ice.

post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

I admire and support your espoused views and I would like (in addition) for you to consider the dynamics of creating circular travel from inertial travel.  Gravity is always pulling us and we have no choice but to deal with it in either dynamic or abrupt ways.  Our skis however, are designed to build circles and the centripetal force that goes with it. There is no abruptness... only dynamic development.  I think this fits in with your approach. 

 

Well, thanks!  I'll try by expanding on the car analogy.   I'm not really that good at the technicalities of physics - allow for some elementary school understanding of physics.

 

The gradual turning of a steering wheel allows us to load the outside wheels while simultaneously managing both weight shift and inertial (straight line to curved) direction change across the chassis.  Loading the outside wheels is like standing on the "soon to be" outside ski in transition between turns. This puts the chassis (the skier) in a stance (extended legs - or uncompressed suspension) that will absorb the anticipated load. That load will be the combined force of inertial direction change, skier mass, and gravity (our old friend).  Once the inertial direction change is started, we can increase or descrease steering wheel input (like the tilt on a weighted ski) to manage the arc through the curve.  We manage this with the friction between the tires contact patch and the road while driving.  And we do the same with the base and edges of our ski's. 

 

As the cars outside suspension compresses while the arc begins and tightens (a more tilted ski can has more room to bend and tighten the arc) the shift in inertial direction stabilizes around its new direction; in this example, the skiers load and inertial direction is now balanced on a curved platform.  The directional force transitions from straight to curved.  The centripetal forces created by the loads rotating around the skiers mass are being managed by the ski position and direction in relation to the center of mass.

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