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# Help With Counter ? - Page 3

My first (stupid) question here:  What is the "apex" of the turn?  Dictionary defines apex as "highest point, vertex."  Which in a ski turn on a slope would be the most uphill/highest point on slope (where skis are kinda more perpendicular to fall line) i.e., 12 o'clock in ski turn?

Compare this where apex is defined as more like 9/3 o'clock in ski turn?

"To start, I should describe what I mean by apex. The apex is

the outer most point of the arc, where your skis are pointed

directly down the fall line."

See:

http://www.epicski.com/a/apex-to-apex-drill

The words "outer most point of the arc"  have no meaning to me, because all points on a circle are the same distance from the center.  On the other hand I am good enough of a skier to know in a ski "arc where your skis are pointed directly down the fall line."  And that definition of apex (seems like 9/3 o'clock) is definitely not the "highest point, vertex" (12 o'clock)

Compare Bob Barnes "Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing" where the term "apex" appears once and is not defined.

See:

http://www.epicski.com/a/the-complete-encyclopedia-of-skiing-epicski-skiing-glossary

Checking for understanding:  Where is this apex of turn you are talking about?

[Maybe its because I never took physics (but I did do well in geometry) so don't come here with the proper background, but without defined terms, these high level discussions which, in particular, the posters in this thread engage in (your posts are greatly appreciated BTW) are confusing to me.]

Edited by Tim Hodgson - 8/20/16 at 7:52am

Good point. The normal definition of "apex" does apply in the sense that it is the "highest" point in the line/arc shape itself, the "peak" of the arc - we have to look at it as the "apex of the turn"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_line#Apex

In skiing is generally when the skis are pointing down the slope, i.e. the fall line, but especially in racing, in some situations, the apex may be slightly before or after the skis are pointing down the hill, but around there though.

These variations though are only interesting on the margin, when discussing what's the fastest line here or there (comma vs arc) or when dealing with the course - you can see that in the first GS photo, the previous red gate must have had the apex before the fall line, as the exit is in the fall line - and at the blue gate, the apex is just above the gate, after the fall line. This is classic when moving the skier across the hill with the course set.

https://my.ussa.org/sites/default/files/documents/athletics/education/2012-13/documents/Turn.pdf

Initiation - The skier initiates the turn close to the

first gate (brush)

· Turning – Apex is between 2 brushes/gates, skier

executes one smooth, continuous arc (no double turns)

· Completion – Turn shape should be finished at or

shortly after the 2nd gate/brush, with no "hook" or extra

edging after gate pair.

· Crossover point / transition: should be between two

apexes, skier pointing at top brush/gate of next turn."

Racing aside, I wonder if words describing "turn shape" miss the point and, thus, are not as useful to a free skier compared to words describing the "centripetal forces/snow condition/contact, etc. which the skier actually feels" while turning  Turn shape is not part of B/ERP? *

In other words, from what I am learning from reading you guys' discussions:   Isn't countering just an Anatomical technique designed to manage centripetal forces caused by Edge, Rotation, and Pressure of a carved ski?   Countering is not directly related to turn shape.  Rather, it is directly related to forces which are created in various degrees by various turn shapes.

And if so, then why couldn't what the skier feels i.e., "the point of greatest centripetal (er, "lateral") force" be substituted for the circle/turn term "apex" which the third-party observer sees and, thus, be more useful in B/ERP terms for the skier him/herself to use? **

I hate words.  Because they make me think.  And I am over over-thinking my skiing.  And instead I want to "do" skiing.  So, I wonder if those words which more help me "feel" skiing will better help me vicariously do B/ERP while reading your guys' posts.

Thanks all you guys for posting here.  I am learning a lot.  I think...

* B/ERP is skier-centric.  Not turn-centric.

** B/ERP words seem particularly more relevant to me than turn words when in discussing the 3D turns such as in bumps (which I am trying to learn to ski).

Edited by Tim Hodgson - 8/20/16 at 8:45am

Internal cues like pressure, contact, force vs external cues fall line, edges, where are the skis pointed, line

I am not a PSIA, I'm a CSCF, I don't use BERP. I'm actually quite opinionated on this, prefer to focus on specific movements and outcomes, rather than skills, but that's a whole different discussion.

Anyways, line is important for rec skiers too, especially in relation to speed control and roundness of the arc and also, where in this line things happen, i.e. the DIRT behind the BERP as it were. It is interesting to look at elements of the turn/line in terms of top of turn, apex, end of turn. Also release, float, engage.

You're right about the words and over-thinking though - it's a good idea to find a simple system of thought about skiing, something you can think about and focus on while skiing. Here's an example: edging.

I cannot think edging or focus on edging. there are many ways to edge the skis: throw my body, drop my hips, angulate, turn my femurs while flexed, push the inside ski forward, tip at the end and let the body cross and drag the skis, deep flexing of the inside leg or tipping the feet or tipping the inside foot. Most of those are wrong, anyways, but stuff you do when push comes to shove thus part of the "edging" skills. Instead, I focus on a very specific tipping movement, "the good one" which will result in edging the skis and that's what I do in 99% of all turns. I can work on it, drill it, explain it in a sentence and direct my FOCUS on it as opposed to being distracted by the other possibilities...

cheers

Edited by razie - 8/20/16 at 9:55am

10-4!  Holy crap, if and when you get time, please direct me to a thread where you discuss your edging movement (and any other various "movements" which are analyzed and drilled), so that I may consider drilling them this coming Winter.

From your description of movements (which is a completely new concept to me) must be a level above and, thus, the dynamic implementation of the B/REP skills, which I agree, even while skiing, are in their purest form, static.  But B/ERP static skills still underlie your movements, Eh?

If you don't have time or it is too much effort to provide links I will search for movements drills.  Off now to help a buddy.  Thanks.

Apex of the turn is where you have the highest, meaning greatest, amount of turn.   For the mathematically inclined, that would correspond with the greatest acceleration, also known as the greatest rate of change of direction (2nd derivitive).   If you dig geometry, it is the point of greatest curvature of the path.  From physics this lines up with the point of greatest accelerating force.  It all comes together nicely.

Ski instructors often talk about skiing as if we are always skiing so that our general direction of travel is straight down the slope.  For racers this is also generally true, and in order to achieve enough sideways motion around the gates without slowing down too much, apexes are usually when skis are pointing down the course at 9 and 3 o'clock.  Some of us like to mix it up a little, and our apexes can be any which way we damn well please.  Some courses require adjustment of apex position as well, but the definition in the first paragraph always applies as far as anything I've come across.

Hope that helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350

10-4!  Holy crap, if and when you get time, please direct me to a thread where you discuss your edging movement (and any other various "movements" which are analyzed and drilled), so that I may consider drilling them this coming Winter.

From your description of movements (which is a completely new concept to me) must be a level above and, thus, the dynamic implementation of the B/REP skills, which I agree, even while skiing, are in their purest form, static.  But B/ERP static skills still underlie your movements, Eh?

If you don't have time or it is too much effort to provide links I will search for movements drills.  Off now to help a buddy.  Thanks.

with an international participation here, you'll find some heated debates on these subjects  and of course "mine" is always better

Here are some detailed thoughts on the matter and a more detailed comparison of a few points of view: Skiing - a philosophy of movement.

cheers

E350, Do not assume the turn shape is a constant arc and the term apex becomes easier to identify. It comes down to lines and a high round constant radius line is often called the slow line because of the greater distance the skis will travel. A more direct line can thus be considered a bit of a short cut where the skis will travel a little straighter through the short cut and turn a little more sharply during the strong shaping phase.  A variable radius thus becomes a big part of the more direct line sometimes called the fast line. As a general visual clue look for the highest edge angles and deepest bend in the skis due to the higher pressure at some point in the turn. As Razie pointed out that strong shaping phase varies with gate placement and this means the strongest shaping phase can occur in any of the three phases of a turn.

In that first montage it is pretty much a constant arc but even then the highest edge angle occurs just above the gate and from there the inside shoulder is moved towards the outside knee to avoid hitting the gate. So shoulder wise that means the spine articulated without changing where the pelvis is facing and the shoulder become most countered at that point. By the next frame you will notice the inside hand drops and the whole arm abducts as the shoulder returns to a less countered position.

In the second montage Ted turns his shoulder but lets his pelvis follow the skis a bit longer, This produces the chair stance but the shoulder are much more countered than the pelvis at that point. Interestingly enough the shoulders turn into the turn prior to the blue gates as he reaches with his outside arm and hand to cross block the upcoming gate. Again purpose dictates this move which is the opposite of what we saw in the first montage where clearing the gate was the intent..

In the third Bennie skis much squarer than either of the other skiers. Like Ted he does rotate his shoulder into the turn to cross block the upcoming gates and he is squarest about at the one third point of the turns as the feet turn to match where his shoulders and pelvis are facing.

That SkiA trainer looks like a truly terrible device.  Look at the videos, well shown in the Lorenz vid.  His feet remain very close to side-by-side, not the inside foot way forward as the trainer puts you.

Why stop the counter with the belly button aimed at the outside ski tip?  More counter works better, more counter sooner, and as mentioned above, hold that counter all the way through the turn.  Also, counter facilitates angulation.  Angulation helps the skis grip the snow better than inclination of the body.

Trying to steer skis without counter is a violation of the law.  Newton's Third Law of Motion.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.  If you're going to rotate your skis to the right, there will always be a rotating force of the body to the left.  Either you anchor that force (which can't be done on skis) or you let the body rotate left when you steer the skis right.

Try this the next time you're on the snow.  Hold both feet side by side (actually continuously pull the inside foot back) but push the inside hip/shoulder/arm forward as far as they'll go and hold it all the way through the turn.  Angulate.  You'll ski better.  Ain't doctrine, but it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

He who shall not be named teaches early counter.  PSIA teaches ski-into-counter.

These are rather different.

I believe what he teaches is that counter begins early, that does not imply that the counter acting is most developed early.  Just that the counter develops as the turn develops.  It is also coached in some circles that the counter builds through the release.  YM

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

Internal cues like pressure, contact, force vs external cues fall line, edges, where are the skis pointed, line

I am not a PSIA, I'm a CSCF, I don't use BERP. I'm actually quite opinionated on this, prefer to focus on specific movements and outcomes, rather than skills, but that's a whole different discussion.

Anyways, line is important for rec skiers too, especially in relation to speed control and roundness of the arc and also, where in this line things happen, i.e. the DIRT behind the BERP as it were. It is interesting to look at elements of the turn/line in terms of top of turn, apex, end of turn. Also release, float, engage.

You're right about the words and over-thinking though - it's a good idea to find a simple system of thought about skiing, something you can think about and focus on while skiing. Here's an example: edging.

I cannot think edging or focus on edging. there are many ways to edge the skis: throw my body, drop my hips, angulate, turn my femurs while flexed, push the inside ski forward, tip at the end and let the body cross and drag the skis, deep flexing of the inside leg or tipping the feet or tipping the inside foot. Most of those are wrong, anyways, but stuff you do when push comes to shove thus part of the "edging" skills. Instead, I focus on a very specific tipping movement, "the good one" which will result in edging the skis and that's what I do in 99% of all turns. I can work on it, drill it, explain it in a sentence and direct my FOCUS on it as opposed to being distracted by the other possibilities...

cheers

Whether it's out comes or skills it still ends up the same, regardless of what the various organizations say. All it is is verbiage.

What it comes down to is the actions required to make the skis carve/turn or whatever.
Quote:

I cannot think edging or focus on edging! There are many ways to put the skis on edge, i.e. "edging": throw my body into the new turn, drop my hips, angulate, turn my femurs while flexed, push the inside ski forward, flex at the end of the turn and let the body cross and drag the skis, deep flexing of the inside leg, or tipping the feet or tipping the inside foot. Most of those are wrong, anyways, but stuff you do when push comes to shove thus part of the "edging" skills.

Instead, I focus on a very specific tipping movement, "the good one" which will result in edging the skis and that's what I do in 99% of all turns. I can work on it, drill it, explain it in a sentence and direct my focus on it as opposed to being distracted by the other possibilities...

Focusing on skill development through variation and different solutions to desired outcomes is how we develop elite athletes.  Focusing on one "right" or "correct" movement or technique is how you develop one dimensional athletes that have no future.That is why skill development and a focus on outcomes rather than the "technique du jour" will always produce more successful athletes. It is the ability to change and modify outcomes based on the ever changing demands of your sport that defines elite athletes not the ability to reproduce specific techniques regardless of changing demands.  I(t is an important thing to remember in your athletes development as well as your own.  We are training these athletes for the future, not for today's demands of the sport; unless you are coaching athletes on the world cup as we speak. We don't know what the future holds for the sport, the only thing we can be sure of is that it will change.  The only way to prepare for that is to develop a strong skill set that allows the athletes, or your self to adapt your movements to the outcomes rather than trying to make your "correct technique" work as things change.

Just my thoughts on the difference between skill development and technique mastery.

Adaptabilty requires a wider view where constants are concerned. As a coach it is easy to throw out rigid rules for youngsters but as I mentioned before, at some point a talented kid will transcend those sort of rules. Bode on k2-4s, Guc skiers dominating the ski world, Ted figuring out the new skis a year before most of his peers, Marcel raising that to even higher levels. All of these skiers helped change the sport. Some youngster will do it again and an even younger skier will do it after him / her. Technique evolves and thanks to computers it changes faster than ever. FIS attemps to regulate equipment changes with things like sidecut specs and such but the skiers find workarounds that force FIS to change regulations again. Staying up to date is possible but innovation is organic and surprisingly unpredictable. As it has been for a long, long time. We can adapt to change, or watch it make us as antiquated as straight skis and soft leather boots.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 8/21/16 at 3:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

I cannot think edging or focus on edging. there are many ways to edge the skis: throw my body, drop my hips, angulate, turn my femurs while flexed, push the inside ski forward, tip at the end and let the body cross and drag the skis, deep flexing of the inside leg or tipping the feet or tipping the inside foot. Most of those are wrong, anyways, but stuff you do when push comes to shove thus part of the "edging" skills. Instead, I focus on a very specific tipping movement, "the good one" which will result in edging the skis and that's what I do in 99% of all turns. I can work on it, drill it, explain it in a sentence and direct my FOCUS on it as opposed to being distracted by the other possibilities...

The "ways to edge skis" is a bit of a red herring though. I've never had a successful class by showing up and saying "OK class, today we're going to work on edging" and then running through a tutorial on edging. (To be fair to myself, I would never do that to begin with.)

I see the skills as mostly a model to describe and analyze skiing. The skills aren't binary. They're applied differently at different parts of the turn, in different conditions, based on skier intent and depending on what's happened in the moments prior and in the moments to come.

I would be limited if I only thought in terms of "he's balanced" or "he's out of balance". Rather, at a given point of the turn, on their chosen terrain and at the speed they're moving, how balanced is the skier in each plane (fore-aft, lateral, vertical, rotational)? Have the skier's actions set themselves up to be in balance in the next phase of the turn? And when you figure out the skier isn't in balance in one or more planes, what is the root cause? (It may be their stance; maybe their pressure control; maybe their edging or lack thereof; maybe their timing & coordination of movement.)

In short, the skills model helps me to sort out what's happening and to figure out my teaching strategy. But because of both the open nature of skiing and the complex relationship between symptoms versus root cause, it's not as straightforward for me as "he's not edging, therefore we use an edging drill".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_

"I've never had a successful class by showing up and saying "OK class, today we're going to work on edging" and then running through a tutorial on edging. (To be fair to myself, I would never do that to begin with.)".

Oops.  I will refine my approach to teaching edging.  Thanks.

After reading and thinking and watching what you guys respectively variously suggest.  It seems to me that "Help With Counter" would be something like this?  Hip/Upper Body Counter could be an action (i.e., something intended), or a result (something which results from the snow-ski interface and the centripetal forces exerted in a turn or turns).  Or a combination of both.

As a crappy skier, trying to get better, what I have been doing is intentionally putting hips downhill in all radius turns, long, medium and short.  I now realize from this thread that that is stupid.  It is a hip/upper body movement which adds nothing to my turns in long and medium turns, and likely even detracts from the turn and even if it does not detract it is at least inefficient.

But in quick cadence short radius "steered" or "carved" turns, counter results from quick feet turning under the body/mass.

Turning the telescope around for contrast's sake, I wonder if I could actually make quick cadence left to right to left short radius turns with my hips square to my skis?  If I could, my guess is that I would be horribly out of balance by having to throw my CoM from side to side so quickly.

So, with respect to MGA's "Help With Counter" original post:

1.  WHERE;

2.  WHAT;

3.  HOW;  and

4.  WHY COUNTER

In:

A.  Long Radius steered or carved turns;

B.  Medium Radius steered or carved turns;

C.  Short Radius steered or carved turns.

BTW, I am usually clueless, often because I am "literal."  So that  PSIA phrase "Steer into counter." means nothing to me except for maybe skiing into counter as a result of quick cadence short radius turns.  Does skiing into counter also apply to long and medium radius turns?

*Ok guys and gals I know this is baby cakes stuff to you good skiers and good instructors.  Here's my deal.  I am here to learn. To ask questions.  I intentionally expose my ignorance here to learn from you.  In fact, if I read this site info correctly I have to have 45 posts to become a Passholder.   So, if you see me posting here allot for a while it is not out of ego, but necessity so I can gain access to the Private Instructor to Instructor forum so that I can really expose my ignorance -- but in private.  A little about me, PSIA Alpine Level II, 18 Seasons part-time, "I teach skiing as a hobby..."  which I only say out of deference to full-time instructors.

Edited by Tim Hodgson - 8/21/16 at 9:57am
Quote:

Originally Posted by E350

As a crappy skier, trying to get better, what I have been doing is intentionally putting hips downhill in all radius turns, long, medium and short.  I now realize from this thread that that is stupid.  It is a hip/upper body movement which adds nothing to my turns in long and medium turns, and likely even detracts from the turn and even if it does not detract it is at least inefficient.

Not neccessarily that bad of an idea, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater... some counter is good in all sized turns. It is harder to maintain "excessive counter" in longer turns, but equally important to stack up at the apex and create coiling through end of turn. This is GS, slowed down for you - pay attention to countering through the turn, at gate, at transition etc:

In GS in fact the upper body movement is more deliberate, especially at the gate... but it's also a matter of the performance you're looking for, gate offset, snow conditions etc.

Skiing completely square, i.e. rotating the upper body to stay square to the skis is never really a good idea, just like completely banking into turns. We've put separation on a pedestal for a reason! Less of a problem in larger turns and higher speeds, but still not a great idea.

cheers

p.s. reminds me... shouldn't separation be a skill?

No, seperation is the result of internal oppositional muscle actions. Much like how a cat will always land on it's feet, it is less about external forces driving the movements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

Not neccessarily that bad of an idea, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater... some counter is good in all sized turns. It is harder to maintain "excessive counter" in longer turns, but equally important to stack up at the apex and create coiling through end of turn. This is GS, slowed down for you - pay attention to countering through the turn, at gate, at transition etc:

In GS in fact the upper body movement is more deliberate, especially at the gate... but it's also a matter of the performance you're looking for, gate offset, snow conditions etc.

Skiing completely square, i.e. rotating the upper body to stay square to the skis is never really a good idea, just like completely banking into turns. We've put separation on a pedestal for a reason! Less of a problem in larger turns and higher speeds, but still not a great idea.

cheers

p.s. reminds me... shouldn't separation be a skill?

As I focus on the numbers on her bib I see very change in the direction that her chest or back faces.  One of my buddies  in the coaching world uses the words, "put your back on the gate" as an idea or trigger to help teach/coach racers to maintain a strong countered position under the gate.    YM

I've just scanned through this thread... only thing I wld add that is counter to what alot of posters have said is that... The more you internalize that ski technique is kinda the same regardless of radius, tempo, snow type and see the similarities, the easier this game will become. There was a point in time where I really struggled in slalom bc I was reaching in to cross block gates, the more I skied like mini GS the better... then wait, lets go make a super G turn, its pretty much just a drawn out GS turn... wait how about a mogul turn, sure you absorb the bump, but same core concepts apply (shoulders down the hill, balanced over the turning point of the ski), wait wait, how about a pow turn... same basic deal but be very, very light on your edges... Even if you want to alternate btwn big arcs and huge slaver/slides... its really all the same with the change with how you are using your edges not the core mechanics.

A great example of this is watch a WC slalom skiier coming from a wider, rythm section, into a flush, and then into another section. You will notice that their tempo changes but their core mechanics dont...

Sure when you are doing a 35M turn your shoulders will track with your skis a bit more right before the transition... but its more or less the same thing...

The other big one, which really requires some thinking is: "when you ski a run you dont do 65+ individual turns... you ski one consistent line"

There is a great vid of Sage Cattabriga-Alosa (sp?) crashing on this gnarly spine and his comment is something to the tune of: fundementals never change, I got lazy, started lowering my hands and rotating, and lost it about 10 turns later, got to remember what I learned racing in 7th grade (I'm messing up the quote, can be found on his insta)

LiquidFeet said:

"PSIA teaches ski into counter."

I haven't been able to get that phrase out of my mind.  I had forgotten it or previously never heard it before.  But I am pretty sure I get it.

"The correct combination of pressure, edging and rotary skills leads to balance."  *

Questions:  To continue, at least in free/rec skiing shorter carved turns, and especially in bump turns when the torso remains relatively upright and doesn't incline as much as in a GS or Slalom race turn, don't we also:

"Ski into angulation."

and

"Ski into edge release."

In other words aren't we holding the round carved turn so long that our bodies anatomically must release and redirect the edges and the pressure?

So aren't we actually passively maintaining our CoM Balance by:

"Skiing into Balance."

???

Tim Hodgson
Sacramento Delta, CA
PSIA Alpine Level II
18 Seasons part-time
(1/2 the experience; 1/4 the knowledge; 1/8 the ability)

Originally Posted by E350

LiquidFeet said:

"PSIA teaches ski into counter."

I haven't been able to get that phrase out of my mind.  I had forgotten it or previously never heard it before.  But I am pretty sure I get it.

"The correct combination of pressure, edging and rotary skills leads to balance."  *

Questions:  To continue, at least in free/rec skiing shorter carved turns, and especially in bump turns when the torso remains relatively upright and doesn't incline as much as in a GS or Slalom race turn, don't we also:

"Ski into angulation."

and

"Ski into edge release."

In other words aren't we holding the round carved turn so long that our bodies anatomically must release and redirect the edges and the pressure?

So aren't we actually passively maintaining our CoM Balance by:

"Skiing into Balance."

???

Tim Hodgson
Sacramento Delta, CA
PSIA Alpine Level II
18 Seasons part-time
(1/2 the experience; 1/4 the knowledge; 1/8 the ability)

Interesting.  However, it sounds to me like you are saying round, carved, shorter turns, and bump turns, are all the same.

I'd be more comfortable dividing those descriptors into three different kinds of turns, then talking about your idea of "skiing into balance" one turn type at a time:

--carved, round (completed?), short radius (arc-to-arc) turns, done on slalom skis with a short turn radius built into them

--shorter radius round (completed?) turns, made shorter than the above with some intentional extra-credit manual turning of the skis by the skier (thus not arc-to-arc carved, but "steered")

--bump turns (there are different types of bump turns, most of which are not arc-to-arc carved), which may be done with skis pretty flat on the bump surfaces, and that means they are nowhere near carved, plus they may be even nowhere near as round as the two above.

LiquidFeet:  I am over my head here, but this is what I plan to practice this coming season:

"carved, round, short radius (arc-to-arc) turns, done on slalom skis with a short turn radius built into them"

(as well as bump turns of all edge-flavors)

So I may have to get back to you guys after I try skiing again.

But I know it is all made up talk crap until I experiment with this stuff again this Winter.

And I agree with Rich666, too much thinking WHILE DOING SKIING will spoil the recipe.  But MA before and after a run, may refine the recipe?

I think the concept of "skiing into" counter, angulation, balance and edge release is very important at my level, as a lot of my mistakes come from trying to force the turn rather than let it develop. Perhaps patience should be a fundamental?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy

I think the concept of "skiing into" counter, angulation, balance and edge release is very important at my level, as a lot of my mistakes come from trying to force the turn rather than let it develop. Perhaps patience should be a fundamental?

It might help if you think of having already skied into those things while completing the previous turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350

LiquidFeet:  I am over my head here, but this is what I plan to practice this coming season:

"carved, round, short radius (arc-to-arc) turns, done on slalom skis with a short turn radius built into them"

(as well as bump turns of all edge-flavors)

So I may have to get back to you guys after I try skiing again.

But I know it is all made up talk crap until I experiment with this stuff again this Winter.

And I agree with Rich666, too much thinking WHILE DOING SKIING will spoil the recipe.  But MA before and after a run, may refine the recipe?

All of that above is accurate, except the blue.

If you are working on releasing your CoM before releasing your skis, as PIerre describes above (as opposed to retraction turns), you shorten the outside leg to release the CoM, but keep the two skis on their uphill edges as you do this.  Keeping those skis on their old edges as you shorten that downhill (outside) leg takes some conscious effort.  Your upper body (well, actually all of you) will topple downhill, sideways, when that downhill leg is shortened.  YOU will cross over (topple over) your skis as they continue heading for the trees.  You'll be "upside down" on the hill, body downhill of feet.  Wheeeee!!

The thing that's wrong with the blue above is that YOU, your CoM, will not move "forward" in any way, assuming that "forward" means towards the tips of your skis.  YOU move downhill of your skis.  YOU (CoM) cross over your skis.  Sideways.  You said above that you are talking about arc-to-arc carved turns.  Just to confirm, since these are arc-to-arc carved turns on slalom skis, you aren't going to be facing straight downhill as you do any of this.  You will be facing more or less in the direction your skis are pointing, towards the trees, in order to keep those skis carving (tails following tips).  And yes, when your body topples sideways over the skis, this action tips the skis onto their new edges at some point after the body starts toppling.  There's a bit of lag time.

That lag time is a big deal.  Enjoy it.  Actually, don't just enjoy it, take advantage of it.  Your upper body is toppling downhill of your skis, while you consciously (that's what it takes because this is not intuitive in any way) keep your inside ski tipped up on its little toe edge (LTE) (focus on the inside ski usually makes the outside ski do the same thing, without you having to focus on it).   Keep shortening that inside leg, and keep ankle-tipping that foot onto its LTE as you shorten the outside leg.  This combination of non-intuitive movements gives your turn a real top.  Despite your efforts, your skis will flatten and eventually (in several nano-seconds) tip onto their new edges.  The toppling body makes it happen.  But before they tip onto new edges, you have that short but valuable lag time which constitutes your turn's top half.

That several-nano-second-long turn top can be played with.  You can send your two feet out towards the trees to extend the length of this top-of-turn, to make it rounder, and to take up more time traveling across the trail.  In other words, sending those feet forward towards the trees as your body topples sideways lengthens/stretches/extends the top of the turn.  It takes up time, and slows your progress down the hill.  If you are skiing with buddies, they will beat you to the chair.  This is not a race to the bottom activity; it's a versatility-increasing activity.  Also, it feels really good, for whatever that's worth (I ski for sensations that can't be gotten doing anything else).

The only way you can do this whole extend-the-top-of-the-turn-thing is if you are doing two other things that I haven't yet mentioned.  Here they are.  Your uphill leg needs to be short, and its foot needs to be back under you not out in front.  Your downhill leg needs to be shortening, and it also needs to be back under you, not out in front.  If both feet are back under you when you shorten that downhill leg to release your CoM, you can one-half-nano-second-later shoot both feet out toward the trees by lengthening them.  You will be "upside down" when you do this.  The feeling you get is pure bliss.

Some people call these "reaching short radius turns."

Edited by LiquidFeet - 8/25/16 at 4:21pm

LiquidFeet:  Now that there was worth the price of admission!!!!  I will print, read and study that description.  I had always heard the term "reaching short turns" but did not understand it.

I am accumulating "turns" to practice this season on my old but still good Salomon Equipe 10 3V Race 155cm (I know they are women's length! -- not that there's anything wrong with that...) slalom skis and your described turn will be one of them.   I usually prefer narrated videos but in the case of your post, my MA would nowhere compare with your written description. Thanks Sister Instructor for taking the time and effort to write a very vivid and understandable description!

Edited appropriately.

Edited by Tim Hodgson - 8/26/16 at 11:25am

E350, LiquidFeet is definitely one of the most helpful people here on epic.  She's spent a lot of time learning and understanding, and learning how to explain.

Now, what's a female version of "buddy"?  "Sister" perhaps?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

Just to confirm, since these are arc-to-arc carved turns on slalom skis, you aren't going to be facing straight downhill as you do any of this.  You will be facing more or less in the direction your skis are pointing, towards the trees, in order to keep those skis carving (tails following tips).  And yes, when your body topples sideways over the skis, this action tips the skis onto their new edges at some point after the body starts toppling.  There's a bit of lag time.

Do you mean as in "no counter" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

Do you mean as in "no counter" ?

No, probably as "square to the skis"

clarification:

If the skier has a ton of counter at the end the turn, as in facing downhill, while femurs are turned in the hip sockets as the skis point across the fall line (completed turn), the release will encourage a pivot of the skis as they flatten, because the body will unwind and the skis will have no grip.

If the goal is arc-to-arc carving, the skier can purge the likeliness of pivoting by keeping the amount of counter to only what's necessary.   What's necessary is defined, sorta, by that whole "wall" "parallel position" thing.

Agree?  Disagree?

Edited by LiquidFeet - 8/26/16 at 2:14pm
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