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Help With Counter ? - Page 9

post #241 of 252

If that is true, then we should see more counter when more angulation is required.

 

It seems to me that more angulation is required when there is insufficient centrifugal force such that inclination will hold the body above the snow.

 

(Clearly inclination is a stronger skeletal arrangement than inclination plus angulation.)

 

Aren't the G-forces generated in short turns less than the G-forces generated in GS turns?

 

If so, we should see more counter in short turns than in GS turns.

post #242 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by E350 View Post
 

If that is true, then we should see more counter when more angulation is required.

 

It seems to me that more angulation is required when there is insufficient centrifugal force such that inclination will hold the body above the snow.

 

(Clearly inclination is a stronger skeletal arrangement than inclination plus angulation.)

 

Aren't the G-forces generated in short turns less than the G-forces generated in GS turns?

 

If so, we should see more counter in short turns than in GS turns.

 

and we do... Ligety in a GS run has much less separation than Shiffrin on a slalom run. 

 

Ligety (hips pointing in direction of travel)

 

Shiffrin (hips pointing more towards outside of turn)

 

Speed, turn shape, conditions, equipment and tune affect both the amount of angulation and separation required.

post #243 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post


That's the same definition.

before or after the edge change is the difference.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Are you sure about this? That the tip would track wider than the tails.... hmmmmm :nono:

I never said wider, the tip is bent more so it is the opposite of wider.

post #244 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

before or after the edge change is the difference.

 

Before edge change: counter

During edge change: counter/anticipation

After edge change: anticipation

post #245 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Before edge change: counter

During edge change: counter/anticipation

After edge change: anticipation

What I don't understand is how you interpret Bob Barnes definition to be after edge change. Here it is for convenience:

 

Quote:
 Bob Barnes:
 
countered, “wound-up” arrangement of the upper and lower body prior to a turn; creates tension in the muscles that, when released, helps initiate the turn

In the picture he has to illustrate the release of the tensions is clearly in transition with skis unweighted and not on their new edges.

 

Also, counter is a verb. So when you say counter during edge change, I don't know if you mean twisting the upper body opposite the new turn, or opposite the old turn? Or do you mean countered?

post #246 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

What I don't understand is how you interpret Bob Barnes definition to be after edge change. Here it is for convenience:

 

In the picture he has to illustrate the release of the tensions is clearly in transition with skis unweighted and not on their new edges.

 

Also, counter is a verb. So when you say counter during edge change, I don't know if you mean twisting the upper body opposite the new turn, or opposite the old turn? Or do you mean countered?

 

Bob is describing a situation where as soon as the edge's are released his skis swing around due to the tension build up in the muscles and the un-would effect. This is typical for bump skiing, powder or just short turns on a groomer. Kind of like the old definition where you had an edge check to end your turn. However, in a2a carving its a bit different because we don't "un-wound" at edge change. So if we don't square up, "anticipation" bleeds over into the new turn. Now it becomes a bit confusing because counter=anticipation. To solve that matter you call it counter before and anticipation after the edge change.

 

Counter is a verb. Some talk about Counter Action. To make sure its not a static countered stance. Not a big deal but there will always be some smart guy in the crowd pointing this out to you. Its also important to understand that if you start countering from an anticipated position after edge change you will have double amount of counter compared to if you are square. This will bring more dynamics into your skiing.

 

post #247 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Bob is describing a situation where as soon as the edge's are released his skis swing around due to the tension build up in the muscles and the un-would effect. This is typical for bump skiing, powder or just short turns on a groomer. Kind of like the old definition where you had an edge check to end your turn. However, in a2a carving its a bit different because we don't "un-wound" at edge change. So if we don't square up, "anticipation" bleeds over into the new turn. Now it becomes a bit confusing because counter=anticipation. To solve that matter you call it counter before and anticipation after the edge change.

 

Counter is a verb. Some talk about Counter Action. To make sure its not a static countered stance. Not a big deal but there will always be some smart guy in the crowd pointing this out to you. Its also important to understand that if you start countering from an anticipated position after edge change you will have double amount of counter compared to if you are square. This will bring more dynamics into your skiing.

 

Thanks, now I understand what you meant. And to make things worse, the term "holding on to counter" is usually the term used to describe what you say, but counter is a verb... :-)

post #248 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

No, as I pointed out a countered stance facilitates more lateral body shaping (angulation) than a square stance can. In that way including them in this thread adds intent and purpose to the discussion.

 

Yes, and the concept is demonstrable even off-snow. 

 

In an athletic stance, angulate just standing square to your feet. You'll probably feel blocked by the inside half of your upper body. Then try creating some separation (point your groin towards your outside foot), then angulate. I feel an immediate difference--less strain along my back muscles and a greater range of travel. 

 

 

Not a human, but you can see the increasing 'edge angle' at the foot as angulation increases.  The robot is balancing on one foot.

 

 

post #249 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Thanks, now I understand what you meant. And to make things worse, the term "holding on to counter" is usually the term used to describe what you say, but counter is a verb... :-)

 

I always thought of counter as a movement that is ongoing. Continually turning your chest towards the outside of the turn. Be it from an anticipated or a square stance. However, as we use less counter these days with carving skis this movement easily turns into a countered position that we hold on to. Now when I think of it.... do we make small rotary adjustments back and forth at the waist or is it always just "holding onto what we've got" or increase?

 

Also, if countered turns into anticipation at transition, does also angulation turn into inclination?

post #250 of 252
Balancing on a moving platform is a great subject and perhaps behind all of this. Although flexing and extending to find balance is only half the battle on skis. We also must find ways to create unbalanced states and stances to guide the skis where we want them to go. There in lies the dual purposes of our movements. Within a relatively narrow range an inclined stance works but the inside half of the body quickly gets in the way of the outside half. That is where countered stances come into the picture. They move the inside half out of the way. But to be of use some flexing in the medial as well as lateral planes is almost always added. In that way angulation allows greater edge angles to happen, partially to find balance but more importantly to create even more unbalanced stances that will fulfill the want for even more guiding and steering so necessary in skiing. Skidding or carving is thus less relevent in directing where the skis go than creating the amount of change in direction in the first place.
Hopefully understanding the mechanical advantages and dis-advantages more clearly will help us understand why a variable application is in order. Obviously many books have sections devoted to explaining this even further and we all have a favorite author. Perhaps sharing the titles of thise books might be a good way to end this thread.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 9/12/16 at 1:21pm
post #251 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

I always thought of counter as a movement that is ongoing. Continually turning your chest towards the outside of the turn. Be it from an anticipated or a square stance. However, as we use less counter these days with carving skis this movement easily turns into a countered position that we hold on to. Now when I think of it.... do we make small rotary adjustments back and forth at the waist or is it always just "holding onto what we've got" or increase?

 

Also, if countered turns into anticipation at transition, does also angulation turn into inclination?

Boy, I'm not sure if everybody agrees that we use less counter nowadays.       As far as holding onto positions...not sure you want to do that either.    YM 

post #252 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

Boy, I'm not sure if everybody agrees that we use less counter nowadays.       As far as holding onto positions...not sure you want to do that either.    YM 

 

I'm not saying that is right or wrong. Just saying that compared to lets say the 70's we use less counter. And when we use less counter we are also more prone to holding on to positions than continuously moving. However, we also ski differently today with our new carving skis so part of this is certainly justified. In particular modern gliding wedge demos are done totally square with no visual movements such as counter or angulation.

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