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Help With Counter ? - Page 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_

Here's how I always remember the difference: during a turn, your body, if left to its own devices, would spin around with your skis. You need to counteract that spin using your core. At the same time, you've been tipping on edge to the inside of the turn. If you don't do anything, your balance is way inside. You need a counter balance (i.e. your upper body) to keep from falling inside.

Metaphor,  you really need to add context to your proclamations.   If the context of the word "turn" is a rotation of the skis then you might be correct. But if the context is carving, you couldn't be more further from the truth.

Carving is the creation of circular travel from a state of straightline travel.  We you fail to do what is necessary to develop and build circular travel you will return to straight line travel. You will not spin around.

Not providing context is one of the big flaws on this forum and I am just as guilty as others but we must make an effort else endless confusion will abound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier

270 kg is very well with in the limits,

The context was a very much bent inside leg....

Let me try and put what counter does in a very simple view.

Pole plant with soon to be inside arm which,
Starts rotation of upper body in that direction,
Legs start to follow upper body mass,
Catching up at some point through the turn,
Which slows the upper body mass rotation to a near stop as energy transfer is finished,
Repeat!

What we see is upper body appears to face down hill and skis (lower body) rotates underneath. What we see and describe, is not what is really happening. It is just the best method to convey the actions.

Counter (or whatever you want to call it) is part of energy transfer system. Stop thinking of these as individual motions, they are not! They are a very complex system of motions to achieve a desired result. Think of a crane with its counter weight, same idea except that we in skiing are more dynamic and use whatever mass we have to get the skis to come around. Be it flaying of arms, countering with upper body, moving our head in for that extra pull (not taking in to account of using the equipment correctly of course).

Before anyone says anything about the pole plant, at best it it is used as an action reference starting point, poles need not be used.
Maybe avoiding organizational jargon would make more sense. Counter is a good example of this bad habit. We all use terms to a degree but when we need to define the words we use and redefine them because we change how we use them, confusion is far more likely.
Terms are shorthand for a concept, or an idea but when we have to define the term it becomes the opposite of shorthand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

Maybe avoiding organizational jargon would make more sense. Counter is a good example of this bad habit. We all use terms to a degree but when we need to define the words we use and redefine them because we change how we use them, confusion is far more likely.
Terms are shorthand for a concept, or an idea but when we have to define the term it becomes the opposite of shorthand.

I agree that many use fuzzy terms to mean all sorts of things, but here I don't see any confusion or conflict, JASP. These terms are very specific.

counter or countered refers to the static relationship at a point in time between upper/lower.

counteraction is the action or movement that creates the countered relationship, by rotating the hips opposed to the turn

pivoting the femurs in the hip sockets is the other action or movement that creates the countered relationship, by rotating the femurs into the turn

angulation is a generic way to create body angles

counterbalance is a specific way to create body angles

etc...

As to counteraction vs pivoting the femurs in the hip sockets - it is more about philosophy and point of view as to what the skier should focus on. The femurs will always pivot in the hip sockets, for good separation, around several axis, the question is why? Is that a result or an action? If the desired result is pivoting the skis, then the focus could be on the femur pivoting while the hips still rotate to the outside etc. If the desired result is solid carving, then focus could be more on edging while counteracting the hips.

cheers

Edited by razie - 9/1/16 at 7:58am

Razie you just proved my point! Reposting your organization's definitions does little to clear up anything here. Barnes went to great effort to compile and define terms in his Encyclopedia of Skiing. (see pgs 83-85) but he uses different terms for what you call counteraction and counter balance. I'm not saying which is correct and which is not as much as suggesting terms often lead to misunderstanding when we assume we all use the same "dictionary". A better approach (IMO) is to avoid terms as much as possible and instead speak and write in simple language. It does require us to be pretty precise in our choice of words but misinterpretation and misunderstandings are minimized.

The problems with this ever increasing industry specific terms, is that you must realize that there are possibly a 100 different difinitions for each word. This makes it more confusing than less confusing.

Years ago to improve customer service, I headed up a project to help of field personnel understand laymans speak. It was easier than saying to the customer you must learn our language to tell us what is wrong with your equipment.

Same applies here.

Stop being so narrow minded in understanding as it harms more than it helps. Funny as it sounds, you are all saying the same thing for he most part. You are just getting hung up on the terminology.

So how do we find common language here? I've purposely avoided using counteraction and counterbalancing for that reason. Mostly because in the context of skiing, a counter rotated stance is a result and as such it is only a momentary snapshot of dynamic actions that produced that twisted relationship in the first place. How much and where in the turn we twist the body can be debated but ultimately we do not see the strong reverse shoulder Austrian model of the 1950s, or the big swing and check moves of the 1960-70s. At least not as a necessary ingredient of every turn we do. Certainly extreme examples exist where that large and strong twisting occurs but it needs to be pointed out judicious use of counter rotation, anticipation (upper half turning away from the turn), or independent leg steering (legs turning into the turn), and counter balancing (shoulders and head moving to the outside of a turn while the hips move to the inside the turn) is far more the norm now days. Exactly how much becomes a experimental thing and no two types of turns will require the same amount of any of those movements.

A good rule here would be to understand why you are using every movement you use and to approach all of our movements from a "use just enough" attitude.

I am hoping we all find this as palatable middle ground and we can put our organizational philosophies and definitions aside in an effort to help the OP.

are you saying it's a matter of the range and timing of motion? That can easily be settled. I thought it was a matter of which motion...

btw - nobody really uses anticipation anymore, and counter-rotation is specifically defined by both RLM and Bob as a pivoting mechanism... if we're looking to avoid confusion...

My organization uses coiling but I figured that would murky the waters even further... there's enough points of view as it is.

IMHO while the different ski organizations use terminology based on flavor of the month, those that are smart enough can adapt to whatever the student needs to hear. I'm less concerned with what words are used, but more with the results.

If it works don't knock it. I've used "counter" for years, using it only when required. I like "coiling", thanks Razie, but again only use it to get an idea across. The point is if you understand it, it only matters that your student understands it.

I have respect for both Razie and JASP as you do know what's required, Now step up to next level, and think outside the box when getting the message across or for that matter in understanding the message. The more flexable you are the better you become.
Twisting the body like a cat does when dropped is a perfect example of counter rotational movements. One part of the body moving in the opposite direction of another part of the body. No outside forces needed. Since you mentioned it Bob's book, pg 83-85 clarifies this idea. Ron takes that and adds the application where we pivot the skis around their vertical axis. Anticipated stances are the extreme example of counter rotated stances produced by counter rotation but anticipation is a bit different in that facing the torso towards the upcoming turn by either turning the torso or turning the feet away from the new turn are two ways to create anticipation.

I use the last idea much more than the active twisting of the torso towards the new turn. Ducking a gate is perhaps the only use of the turn the torso move I use now days.
So, is there a difference between "anticipation" and "countered" ?

Lito uses the concept of anticipation a lot in his books and videos, but I presumed this was just his terminology for countering and the techniques were effectively the same. In my mind it would seem that anticipating a turn may lead to a forced turning of the upper body and coiling of the lower to store energy. From this thread, I see countering as being more passive and concerned with the quality of the current turn rather than preparing for the next one.

Anticipating to me is the opposite of early counter.  In anticipation you rotate your upper body in the direction of the new turn which creates a windup/release action.

Outside of the javelin turn drills the pelvis and shoulders turning away from the new turn early means they are facing uphill. Getting them facing back downhill would mean either twisting them and adding angular momentum into the turn, or rotating the entire body as a unit through the rest of the turn, again adding angular momentum. So in my world there are very few situations where that might be technically speaking the best solution. Maybe a comma shaped turn where the apex and strong turning efforts are way early but even then it is far more likely that I would turn the feet across the hill and maybe even uphill while facing the torso at the apex of that next turn. In that way it would be more of an anticipation movement than classic counter rotation where the skis would pivot as the body turns away from the new turn. Counter or more accurately a counter rotated stance would occur but without turning the body anywhere. Independent Leg Steering (legs turning in the hip sockets) is the mechanism that would create this counter rotated stance. The Duration, Intensity, Rate and Timing of the leg steering thus becomes the important consideration and adjusting the DIRT to maintain my chosen line becomes my primary concern. Calling it "counter" seems to me a bit too unspecific since how I created the counter rotated stance is missing from the description. There in lies the problem with shorthand one word terms. But what should we replace those pesky and inexact terms with? Descriptive phrases would be my choice and in this case taking the complex idea of the feet continuing to turn across the hill while the body faces and moves towards the apex of the next turn takes a bit longer to write but leaves little room for misunderstanding my intent and my follow up demo would be judged against that expressed intent. Abbreviations that do not express that entire thought typically need further explanation just to get across that same idea.

Jargon among peers is often assumed to be understood but when multiple organizations are present, that is a bad assumption. As we see here all the time...

Angulation which  is most evident in well trained racers is a complex movement.  I have yet to see a good explanation of what movements specifically have  to occur to achieve angulation.  Angulation is a movement which has several benefits which I won't get into now.  Angulation movements occur as a result of specific movements which take place primarily and simultaneously in two planes, the transverse and the coronal planes.   Angulation can be broken down into specific movements in  each of those planes and can also be practiced separately.  He who must not be mentioned, has defined these separate movements which contribute to the complex movement we call angulation.   Because these movements occur in separate planes of motion, can be practiced separately,  require different muscular efforts and because these movements have differing effects on turning it makes sense to define these movements separately.   YM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR

Metaphor,  you really need to add context to your proclamations.   If the context of the word "turn" is a rotation of the skis then you might be correct. But if the context is carving, you couldn't be more further from the truth.

That's an interesting perspective. I observe angular motion and angular momentum in carved, pivoted, and steered turns. The laws of physics don't vanish just because a skier decides to carve.

All that said, I don't know why you're getting all crusty when I shared how *I* remember the meanings of this jargon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_

That's an interesting perspective. I observe angular motion and angular momentum in carved, pivoted, and steered turns. The laws of physics don't vanish just because a skier decides to carve.

All that said, I don't know why you're getting all crusty when I shared how *I* remember the meanings of this jargon.

Ain't getting "crusty" my friend.  Indeed, the law of physics don't vanish, it's just that some choose to ignore them.

I am puzzled at your statement: "during a turn, your body, if left to its own devices, would spin around with your skis"

Why you consider turning a spinning activity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

Twisting the body like a cat does when dropped is a perfect example of counter rotational movements. One part of the body moving in the opposite direction of another part of the body. No outside forces needed. Since you mentioned it Bob's book, pg 83-85 clarifies this idea. Ron takes that and adds the application where we pivot the skis around their vertical axis. Anticipated stances are the extreme example of counter rotated stances produced by counter rotation but anticipation is a bit different in that facing the torso towards the upcoming turn by either turning the torso or turning the feet away from the new turn are two ways to create anticipation.

I use the last idea much more than the active twisting of the torso towards the new turn. Ducking a gate is perhaps the only use of the turn the torso move I use now days.

the way I see it is that when the skis are on edge and a reasonable edge angle, turning the feet into the turn has a completely different meaning... you are not even free to rotate the lower body to create counter, since it's locked by the skis' engaged edge... and it's prisoner to turning at that precise rate that the skis are turning... all it would do to even try to rotate it any faster, it would be to dig the edges in the snow even more, leverage the snow and help the upper body counter even more: action and reaction. It is the reason we bother to build and carry said counter through transition...

when the skis are flatter on snow or you're on a barstool, I agree.  it's like a cat and you can take your pick. But when the skis are on edge, your lower body is anchored. it's as simple as that in my mind.

anyways, we don't need to argue these and like @oldschoolskier said, the truth is that we understand what the other is saying... I don't think there have been any real misunderstandings on this, on this subject at least, in this thread...? If you do want to have a discussion on any of these, it's probably a great idea for a new thread!

cheers

Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR

I am puzzled at your statement: "during a turn, your body, if left to its own devices, would spin around with your skis"

Why you consider turning a spinning activity?

spinning as in rotating around the vertical axis? i just  googled "define spin" and it's defined as turning

seriously though, if you do nothing, the body will turn with the skis, because it's not anchored in anything but it's angular momentum (or lack thereof).. when decoupled from the feet and it's anchored to the feet when there's no separation  - we just have to look at 98% of skiers out there - there's a reason we teach them counter. even with good skiers, when you're stacked on top of a long leg, you still tend to rotate because of the forces you're resisting: it's easy to squat and go "in compression" as JF would say instead of staying "in suspension".

the only real difference I see between pivoting and carving, from this point of view, is that the feet are free to turn as you want when pivoting while they're anchored and stuck to the skis when you're carving.

cheers

p.s. also the reason dancers and motorcycle racers and hockey players and other involved with certain sports get skiing very quickly. they can naturally separate and control body parts independently. I did 2 of those 3 things. not telling which

Edited by razie - 9/1/16 at 7:43pm

I see your points Raz and I totally agree with your last sentence.

But IMO there are significant differences in turns being driven by rotary action to affect directional change and those being driven by edging and pressure.

Could a "defining"  ingredient in this discussion be velocity?

Thanks raz for the clarification. In your description it becomes clearer what you meant by the term. Which was my point. Beyond that we don't need to agree on the use of counter rotation of the torso / shoulders as the primary way to create the counter rotated stance you desribed. Ski well my friend... .
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR

I see your points Raz and I totally agree with your last sentence.

But IMO there are significant differences in turns being driven by rotary action to affect directional change and those being driven by edging and pressure.

Could a "defining"  ingredient in this discussion be velocity?

For sure there's significant differences - I was just looking at the counter aspect I guess...

It is interesting that you used velocity not just speed. I am thinking about the vector of this compared to the down/forward direction. We cannot extract much lateral impulse from a pivoted turn, because there is no platform. Likewise, it means we cannot resist a larger initial lateral velocity either... you may be onto something here...

cheers

MGA:  Turning the telescope around for a moment, the discussion of "Release Point" (of CoM) here commencing at 5:23 is helping me think of "efficient counter":

In other words, if too much counter is interfering with the intended Release Point it is, well, too much counter.

I watched a bit with the sound off, but, pretty bad skiing

Uhh, it was about the words...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301

I watched a bit with the sound off, but, pretty bad skiing

You missed the music. They told me to close my eyes, smile and listen.......I thought I was in a soft porn movie. Was it really specially written for the series just to inspire us

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350

Uhh, it was about the words...

I got it. Not being fixed in your movements gives you the freedom to adapt. I have a feeling that kind of unconscious competence may be a long way off for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy

I got it. Not being fixed in your movements gives you the freedom to adapt. I have a feeling that kind of unconscious competence may be a long way off for me.

Are you there with your golf swing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson

Are you there with your golf swing?

At times.

Being able to let go of mechanics in sports is very hard as we are programmed to "try hard" and that means freeing the mind from controlling our actions. I think trying to emulate pro styles in sports creates at lot of a tension as we try to copy movement patterns sometimes beyond our personal abilities. For me, embracing my own natural golf swing enabled me to move from conscious actions to the unconscious. There are many distractions in golf, so the feeling comes and goes. Sometimes for a shot or two, sometimes for a few holes, but every now and then it will last for an entire round. That's fun.

I really experience the "zone" when I spa in martial arts. I focus on my breathing, my mind quiets and the movements flow with no conscious thought of control. It's a very relaxed feeling that produces genuine freedom of movement through instant reaction. Once you have had the feeling of truly being thoughtless in your actions, it's a place you want to get to in all your endeavors. It's very addictive. I do believe that finding the zone is a skill set that can be practiced and improved. I'm not there with my skiing yet; starting this thread shows that I'm struggling with forced movements in my counter technique. I do look forwards to the day when I can start to experience some "freedom" in my skiing.

Ok, you guys make me work.

MGA: Here are the words which I thought were brilliant and which I believe help explain counter.

After hearing those words along with watching the video demos, I believe that “Release Direction” and “Counter” are the two sides of a single coin. So, “Counter” is the position your body is in prior to, during and after, the Release Point (of your CoM).

If your must redirect your body to a different Release Direction after your Release Point you either entered the turn with too much or too little counter for the intended turn outcome.

Now let’s read the friggin’ words:

"You can use your release direction as a holistic process that influences your entire performance.

Your release direction is the direction in which you choose to let your body travel at the release point.

This will influence your edge changing process, the duration of your flat spot, the radius of the turn you make, and so the path of your skis over the snow.

So let's take a moment to explain this more clearly.

When you change edges, your body moves across your feet to create a flat spot. Though sometimes this can feel like your feet moving under your body. The point is in what direction exactly is your body moving?

If it moves forward diagonally across your feet towards the tip of your skis, the edge change process will be gradual, the flat spot will be relatively long, and the radius of the next turn is very likely to be long also.

If your body moves directly downhill across your feet, the edge change will be rapid, the flat spot relatively brief, and the radius of the next turn is likely to be short.

And of course all the variations between these limits are available to you. ... You can use your choice of release direction and your influence over it to guide your entire performance with subtlety and fluency.”

My point was that you should know when you have too much or too little counter when it makes the direction of the release of your CoM inefficient.  I.e., when the amount of counter you take into the turn is too much/too little for your intended CoM release direction out of the turn, requiring a redirection of your CoM out of the turn.

And for any internet jockey who criticizes the skiers in the video. You are not an instructor. Those are demos. That is not free skiing. My guess is those skiers free ski better than most of the readers of this forum.

Should we be having this discussion in the private Instructor to Instructor subforum?

Free the mind; don't think about counter, just think of your skis skiing along independent of your body, but under your control, following the route you choose for them, and you hovering over them with an independent, but close enough to keep an eye on them, flight path.

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