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What are you doing this summer to prepare for winter? - Page 8

post #211 of 236
Here's a little more for the dialog on the recreation skiers needs from the National Strength & Conditioning Association:

https://www.nsca.com/uploadedFiles/NSCA/Resources/PDF/Education/Articles/Assoc_Publications_PDFs/personal%20training%20for%20the%20recreational%20downhill%20skier.pdf
post #212 of 236
post #213 of 236

Words from the mouth of one of the most decorated female skier in US history. IMO,some doesn't directly apply to recreational skiers but gives insight to how she was training before she got injured. Mostly working on core and balance, revolves heavily around endurance and biking.  Very little max strength.  IRCC she was still hooked up with Hager up to 2013. 

 

 


Edited by jack97 - 8/22/16 at 4:55am
post #214 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

Words from the mouth of one of the most decorated female skier in US history. IMO,some doesn't directly apply to recreational skiers but gives insight to how she was training before she got injured. Mostly working on core and balance, revolves heavily around endurance and biking.  Very little max strength.  IRCC she was still hooked up with Hager up to 2013. 


 

This is a phenomenal post, as it knowledges that most of her training does not apply to the average or recreational skier. Here is just my take on making sense of what we're seeing in the differences of opinions:

At the level of the elites, you have individuals who are skiing 10 months plus per year and are genetically very gifted individuals. These are individuals who are also adrenaline junkies and are launching at 60+ miles an hour, enjoy plyo's and flipping Monster truck tires. They are well acquainted to maximal volitional capacity. As a coach or a conditioning specialist, the considerations have to revolve around keeping the athlete healthy and consideration towards metabolic conditioning to clear waste products and make sure that they are healthy enough to "get the work done" over the course of the year. These are your upper level college athletes and FIS / Olympic skiers. Recovery, metabolic conditioning, mindfulness and movement flow all become absolutely critical.

When this is contrasted with your average day skier or even your knowledgeable PSIA ripper, The approach is quite different. These are individuals to do a lot of low level activities to begin with, they do not have as high of a genetic potential and they are functioning closer to their metabolic ceiling. These are the individuals who would be greatly benefited by learning and feeling what a 5RM lift looks like (not a 1RM). Progressing them into plyometrics and HIIT would vastly improve there on the hill performance and enjoyment and providing them education about avoiding excessive alcohol at the end of the day and sleep hygiene while in the mountains is very appropriate.

When we are looking at the elite level athlete, even they are only recruiting 30 to 40% of muscle fibers in a maximum lift/ activity. The weekend warrior who's recruiting 4% has a much larger spectrum of potential gains. It's not that people need to train differently, there are no good or bad exercises-there's only the appropriate dosage of various exercises. Hope this sheds some light on the subject.
post #215 of 236

Also acknowledges her training (coach's) philosophy is much different than Austrian, American and other WC teams.  (which tend to do much more weight training and have also produced incredibly successful athletes as well).

 

So like anything, very much about figuring out what is best for the individual.  For Lindsey this method works (perhaps it could be better with more heavy lifting, perhaps not....we will never know for sure).

She is also unique in that she's been gifted with strength than somebody like Mikaela doesn't quite possess.  

 

Again like anything, always a good idea to break down the physiological demands (whatever you think them to be) of a sport and then using that as a basis to build a specific conditioning program to enhance those areas of strength and further develop those areas of weakness relative to sport demands. 

post #216 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post
 

Also acknowledges her training (coach's) philosophy is much different than Austrian, American and other WC teams.  (which tend to do much more weight training and have also produced incredibly successful athletes as well).

 

So like anything, very much about figuring out what is best for the individual.  For Lindsey this method works (perhaps it could be better with more heavy lifting, perhaps not....we will never know for sure).

 

She is also unique in that she's been gifted with strength than somebody like Mikaela doesn't quite possess. 

 

 

The relationship of Vonn and Martin Hager goes back to 2008 as far as I can tell. My point about this date is that the philosophy from National teams could change over a span of a season. There are interesting clips of Flanagan, the research he and his team conducted when he was hired as the High Performance Director for USST and IMO, his body of work can be seen by how well the ski teams have competed. Once a teams find success, others will copy. Getting back to Hager, he use to be an Austrian National Ski Team conditioning coach.  I assumed Vonn and her then husband actively recruited him since one does not magically come from Austria and settle down in Vail and become a trainer to elite skiers. Hager seems to tailor the program based on the groundbreaking research of Neumayr where the aerobic capacities needs to be trained (to required capacity is still TBD). What is striking to me is that Shiffrin does not squat to to max load, and trains more to the philosophy Hager was advocating in the vid clip.  


Edited by jack97 - 8/22/16 at 3:15pm
post #217 of 236
Again, I don't believe anybody is suggesting the aerobic system development should be skipped. However many do still believe strength, power, balance, and anaerobic development to be highlight points in a well balanced alpine conditioning program.

I always used to caution my students that one should not base their views on what some group, or individual does (especially when we are not privy to the entire picture of the entire training program). E.g. The Svindal clip sparked a relatively unproductive back and forth about how much he actually pushes for weight.....unproductive as again it's one clip and we (to the best of our knowledge) do not know what the rest of his program looks like. I can only assume based on what I've personally seen with elite skiers and what other peers have mentioned they do with them as well.

Reminds me of many stories I've heard about the famed Russian sprinter Val Borzov, he attributed much of his success to a specific plyometric exercise he performed religiously. While there certainly was benefit to his exercise, sport science suggests the actual exercise might not be the most effective to achieve his stated goals. Yet it worked for him so many I suppose could say that their own athletes should partake because it helped Borzov to become champion.....to my knowledge no current world class sprinter does that particular plyometic exercise anymore (for decades). In another sport Herschel Walker had ballet training at a young age and was arguably one of the best running backs to ever play in he NFL....one might suggst it's the ballet that helped him achieve that, however one can also suggest I might have hindered him and he might've been even better if he didn't. So caution is warranted when using similar examples to highlight what one should or shouldn't do. The old N of one problem.

Mikaela (again I don't know for sure as I'm not in her circle...and if I was I certainly would not advertise such on an Internet forum) and strength coaches they have working with her have said on record that given her age and more importantly relative newness to the rigours of the WC tour the challenge with her is to try and bring her up to where they think she should be physically while not overloading her and negatively effecting her racing. (A balancing act). Others like Ligety can endure differently in the off season and during season training.

The Vonn's focus of "more" aerobic type work (although again what is said and what actually happens in the program might be surprising...e.g. Michael Johnson's coach's comments vs. what the program actually presented showed). Or it might not, unless you know the entire program and how adjustments are made during the sessions. Perhaps her strength and power development was already so high they elected to focus more on other areas, perhaps (if she didn't do heavy weight...id be surprised if she didn't at all) maybe her lack of focus on the strength side of the program predisposed her to the knee injury she sustained in Austria 2013 when her leg buckled upon impact after a roller and negatively effected what is already an amazing career. Not saying it was (I have no idea what her numbers were), maybe it was a freak accident. Or maybe it was the type of accident that might not have been so detrimental with stronger legs (I know the mechanism was not one where better aerobic conditioning would've helped....given it was not long into the race smile.gif). Again, the examples used just to highlight the difficulty and challenge in using what a particular individual athlete does to provide a support framework on what is important physiologically in a particular sport.

If one believes aerobic development to be first and foremost, then express that in your training. If one believes other factors are more important than do those things more. If one looks to what many elite alpine skiers and their training staff do with he athletes they will see many similarities, already mentioned many, many times and with many examples in this thread. Choose to use the information how you wish.

I have no dog in this discussion, you aren't paying me to help you reach your potential in alpine racing. If you were it's not hard to figure out my particular perspectives. I've had notable successes working with elite athletes, but as mentioned above, that doesn't guarantee I know what I'm talking about either. smile.gif

Break down the physical requirements of the sport and determine the strategies to improve or develop those areas specific to you or your athlete. If it's just you he consequences of not being as optimal is realituvely minor, if you were like me and were employed in the area the results significantly impacted one's job security.
post #218 of 236

I know we don't like the concept of skiing to get fit, but I think we all do it to some extent. It's very hard to reproduce the chaotic movement patterns involved in many sports unless we are actually doing the sport itself. No matter how fit I am and how diversified my training regime is, I always find the first few days getting back into an activity produces some muscle soreness and seems to tire me more than expected. This is especially true with seasonal sports like skiing and summer hiking. I notice this effect the most with martial arts sparring after a lay off. There seems to be no training activities that prepare you as well for fighting, as fighting itself. Hence I often wonder if my off season training should try to replicate skiing's movements, or if I should just work more on general fitness and then use the first few days of the season to ski myself fit?

post #219 of 236
Great question!

Unless you grass ski, the actual skiing movement is so different and complex that it's near impossible to replicate outside of season (even roller blading doesn't work because the force loads are not there). I suppose you could go glacier skiing like the racers do. However it's also expensive and there is a such small window where the snow is hard enough to be useful (few hours). Although afternoon beers on a sunny day in Austria after a morning ski session doesn't sound too bad.

That being said, given the complex movement, there is going to be some "getting back into things" type adjustment when the season begins. It's inevitable.

For the most part you aren't going to go wrong working on overall fitness, balance, core stability, leg strength, quickness, etc. A lot of good exercises suggested above. If you are keen you can try to work more "ski like" movements (bosu ball tuck, hop ups to low bench, side jumps, etc. Come to mind). But do know you will still be "getting ski fit in those early season days", although with good general fitness and the above one can certainly minimize this. I find most people get the muscle soreness from not doing much eccentric loading activities, nor being used to working on a loaded leg for an entire turn duration. I know since I've started participating in the same dryland training as the racers do, my ability to "take it to the hill" has greatly improved. The ability of my body to take cliff impacts, park jumps, and crank turn after turn in the gates has also significantly improved by doing so as well. Ultimately improving both my performance and enjoyment on the hill.

Big picture, not a either or. I'd incorporate both with a focus on core stability, balance and strength work (especially being able to hold a loaded leg position for a decent amount of time...e.g. tuck hold/wall sit/etc.) in addition to whatever else you like to do.

Of course this is without knowing what your current fitness level is like and what your ultimate goals are.
post #220 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

There seems to be no training activities that prepare you as well for fighting, as fighting itself. Hence I often wonder if my off season training should try to replicate skiing's movements, or if I should just work more on general fitness and then use the first few days of the season to ski myself fit?

 

MMA fighters do alot of things to mimic fighting in the cage.From the fundamental of getting the snap of the fist when you punch to grappling. Getting these techniques along with many others set into muscle memory is only done by repetition. The elites who have the money will even fly in and contract a sparring partner that closely resemble the fighting style of  his/her coming opponent. IMO, these are prep work for the fight and there are close analogies with skiing. The only question is if constantly doing this will wear out the body and/or mind. 

post #221 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post



Unless you grass ski, the actual skiing movement is so different and complex that it's near impossible to replicate outside of season (even roller blading doesn't work because the force loads are not there). I suppose you could go glacier skiing like the racers do. However it's also expensive and there is a such small window where the snow is hard enough to be useful (few hours). Although afternoon beers on a sunny day in Austria after a morning ski session doesn't sound too bad.
 

 

The afternoon beers can't be overlooked. I know I look forward to them. We're heading to the Hintertux Glaciere in October.

post #222 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyplush View Post

Started the leg blaster training program earlier this week: http://www.backcountry.com/explore/train-eccentric-leg-strength-for-alpine-skiing

Could only muster half of the first session, and it made me so sore I've been limping since Monday.

This is the first season I've done a ski specific training program outside of basic weightlifting. Interested to see how it pays off come Winter.
I'm going to try this.
post #223 of 236
^^^
With all the back and forth on this thread, forgot to give a thumbs up on the article ....... Its funny that the author mentions heavy squats (front, back and so on) didn't correlate to lasting longer on the slope, of course the article is anecdotal, however the recent research and wc skier training trends are pointing this way.  A leg blaster last for ~ one minute and then rest for 30 sec, good eccentric movements, but one item the author forgot to mention is that this is HIIT,
post #224 of 236
I ran across that leg blaster video about this time last year, but at the time was into the iPhone app by the same facility which had done so well for me the prior year. Also, I wasn't really sure I wanted to beat myself up that badly. I'm still using the iPhone workout but have incorporated the leg blasters the past couple of weeks. Well... Truth be told: mini blaster sets...

WOWIE ZOWIE!! - pretty much every waking moment of every day my legs are telling me that there is some serious building/rebuilding going on with all those little myocytes in there. Between Rob Shaul's commentary in the video laying out the rationale and the way my legs actually feel, I can say pretty confidently that my legs will be ready for opening day like they have never been before. And I thought the shape I was in last year was the high water mark. The really cool thing is that it is so purely a HIIT workout, it's over and done with in 10 minutes or so.
post #225 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
 

I've seen other studies that find a correlation, but only if you use Squat/(body mass). In other words, it is good to be fit and strong, but not fat and strong :-)

post #226 of 236

I need to start getting ready for ski season.  Will come back to this thread.

post #227 of 236

Currently trying to decide between Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2 and Micheline X-ice III.  http://tekniikanmaailma.fi/winter-tyres-2016

 

I may have to move to an area where studs are verboten.

post #228 of 236
Getting paid to hike up 55% grades on a rock pile. Yep I'm going to be in good shape if it doesn't kill me. Feel the burn....
Edited by mowmow - 9/21/16 at 9:31pm
post #229 of 236
I got me a new bottle of Evan Williams
post #230 of 236

Got new ski goggles... Smith I/O7's with the Red SOL-X lens. Didn't come with a low light so currently debating between Smith Blue sensor and Smith Chromapop Storm.

 

gonna get my skis tuned, and thats about it. Im ready for snow!:snowfall

post #231 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbat11700 View Post
 

Got new ski goggles... Smith I/O7's with the Red SOL-X lens. Didn't come with a low light so currently debating between Smith Blue sensor and Smith Chromapop Storm.

 

gonna get my skis tuned, and thats about it. Im ready for snow!:snowfall


Thanks for reminding me.  I'm going to sharpen and wax mine, one of these days.  Hopefully before I get to go skiing.:o

post #232 of 236

We went through our kids' gear to make sure everything fits and is in place.

 

Bought my kids some hestra mittens at sierra for $40.  They seem to lose a mitten every year.

 

For whiskey I usually go with jim beam rye.


My workouts and mountainbiking are on hold until the chiropractor fixes my back some more.  Just stretching, going for walks, and using the exercise bike.  

 

Looking for snow tires on craigslist. 

post #233 of 236

This:

 

I use the slantboard for balance work on all four edges and for breaking-down and drilling movements.  In this photo I am balanced on my "downhill" edges without any help from poles nor am I holding onto anything with my hands, and I'm not leaning against anything. The only points of contact are where the edges of my boots touch the surface of the slantboard.

 

If you don't already have a slantboard, I highly recommend building one.



Oh, and one-legged squats balanced on downhill boot's little toe edge are fun.
Edited by NCski - 9/29/16 at 10:59pm
post #234 of 236
If anyone interested in building a slantboard would rather have detailed plans instead of figuring out how to make one from the picture I posted, please PM and I'll send a link to free plans online.

I like that my slantboard allows me to change the angle by inserting various width boards in the channel at the high side (my right side in the picture) of the slantboard. The plans I've seen call for a carpeted surface, but I had an extra square mat, from a set of interlocking anti-fatigue floor mats, that works perfectly.
post #235 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Postit is good to be fit and strong, but not fat and strong :-)

HEY!!

 

I know Its hard for you little guys to be this gorgeous, but watch the jealousy. Ladies like bears with furniture.

post #236 of 236

^^^^

 

IDK.... but I like them lean and mean. Maybe the thought that they can pin me or put me in a submission hold that intrigues me. 

 

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