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Respected Industry Persons (RIPs) and Ski Advice - Page 4

post #91 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Apologies then.. I thought he was.refering to beyond. I dont think you can be reasonably accused of being vague. smile.gif


No problem.

post #92 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
 

No, they do not. See post #75 above. Nothing being discussed in this thread has anything to do with anything that was actually said. The idea of 'RIP's' and 'BGP's' is absolutely silly, this entire thread is a Strawman, it is essentially worthless mental masturbation. Sorry if I got a little off track, I sometimes do when I am flogging the bishop.


I kinda agree again. When I was living back in Europe I never knew such an animal exist (RIP) I only found out here on Epic.

post #93 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Well i guess that's a "no", otherwise you would have said something like "of course that's ok."

So, maybe a vid of anyone that shows "good skiing skills"? Feel free to include yourself since you've offered pages of advice.


I don't know why you want to discuss names here. I'm not willing to denigrate people that put time and money here to write ski reviews and  give recommendations. Whether I will follow their recommendations or not I like reading what they write. In earlier posts I only tried to attract the advice seeker's attention to some professional(commercial) biases when reading reviews and spending money nothing more (and this is normal and logical) . As for my preferences I try to look for an advise from a more '' neutral '' (not commercially engaged place) , from a good skier who is able to detect subtle differences in  ski behavior. I also demo tons of ski each season myself.

Just trying to get a sense of who is qualified in your eyes. In regards to skiing, as intelligence usually doesn't show up on video.
So how about this random reviewer?
Qualified in the skiing department or not?
Got to 3:10
post #94 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Just trying to get a sense of who is qualified in your eyes. In regards to skiing, as intelligence usually doesn't show up on video.
So how about this random reviewer?
Qualified in the skiing department or not?
Got to 3:10


You don't seem to have followed this thread ( from before it was transfered here until now) and I risk to repet myself, but anyways the question is not about who is qualified who is not . At the beginning of the thread 4 usernames were thrown here and I asked what exactly makes their opinions more valid then anyone else's opinion . See the answers from markojp - it is not my way of thinking anyways. I still think you should be a good skier with the ability to put your onsnow  feelings into words and recommendations, but again I can read your recommendations with the same curiosity and interest  even if you don't fall into this category.

post #95 of 112

Philippe Juneau ( the guy from the video above)  is a Quebec's ski tester engaged by the ski shops chain Oberson that has ski

shops near Montreal ( in Laval and cartier dix 30 Brossard) He exclusively reviews and recommends skis that are being sold by Oberson. It is up to you to decide how neutral and objective his presentations are , but for me personally it is always a pleasure watching them.English versions are available as well .

post #96 of 112
Glad you enjoyed Phillipe.
You still didn't answer the question on his skiing. You created a statement on standards, so let's judt have a yeah or neah. Nonneed to "denigrate" anyone. Judt does this perfon meet the standard or not?
I really don't care about the other thread. There's nothing I'm missing you laid it dll out here.
Quote:
You don't seem to have followed this thread ( from before it was transfered here until now) and I risk to repet myself, but anyways the question is not about who is qualified who is not . At the beginning of the thread 4 usernames were thrown here and I asked what exactly makes their opinions more valid then anyone else's opinion . See the answers from markojp - it is not my way of thinking anyways. I still think you should be a good skier with the ability to put your onsnow feelings into words and recommendations, but again I can read your recommendations with the same curiosity and interest even if you don't fall into this category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post

 
 please allow us to rely on indisputable authorities
What does this mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post

 
What does this mean?


Person who :

-- skis beautifully
-- teaches effectively
-- his background is well known
-- when you listen to him you achieve great results
-- etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post

If you denigrate you should be at least a good skier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post

markojp , I would be very cautious when taking recommendations coming from retailers.( for obvious reasons) . Yes they may have opinions, interesting and valuable opinions. However I wouldn't use them as a solid foundation to build my ski quiver. I can read anyone else's opinion with the same degree of interest and passion. In regards to my real choices however I may prefer to listen to an undisputed and proven skiing autority. The question here is - are you able to identify one ? I am.

I'm just trying to establish your baseline on the skiing part.
post #97 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


it's also a fallacy that one needs to ski every ski to have an idea what it's like. Here's where "extrapolate" should be added to the list. If you ski say a race carver type ski near 180cm with 15m sidecut, decide that that much sidecut is too much, do you really have to ski every ski just like it? Sure, maybe another one with different flex is different, and that's where you'd ask questions of someone who'd skied it and compare. Same with tail rocker, tip rocker, tip shape, width, etc.
 

The four main things that determine how a ski will perform are length, width, sidecut, and flex. The first 3 are easy to find out. The 4th is tough without skiing the ski yourself or talking to someone who has skied it AND a ski you have skied and compared the two. Objective information about flex is tough to come by. The other thing that is impossible to predict is how the 4 factors will interact to produce a ski that is just right for a given skier. Maybe you can predict how you'll like a ski from the stats. I can't. I need reviews or demoing or both--the stats just narrow the field to a manageable number of options.

 

The hot skis in a given year--like the Bonafide, which I have--are not  best skis for a particular type of skier or type of skiing. They are usually one ski quivers--suitable for a wide range of conditions and skier ability. That should be obvious--the more people in more places who can use the ski the more potential buyers there are. People who sell skis like to sell popular skis because most customers are going to be satisfied, no matter how badly they've overestimated their ability or how often they ski powder. Most people who have Bonafides like them. You're not going to find a race ski or powder ski as the ski everyone has to have. (One way to tell a great ski, in retrospect, is when you see a lot of them in low tide conditions, when people bring out their old skis--the ones they still like to ski. Around here one of those seems to be the Apache Recon--I see tons of those still. It's the only ski I've ever saved for a rock ski that I actually use--all the other old skis have been no fun compared to my new ones, so I throw them out after the first time I use them for rocks.)

 

I like Blister reviews--of the skis I've bought based on their reviews I've pretty much agreed with their assessment.

post #98 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Glad you enjoyed Phillipe.
You still didn't answer the question on his skiing. You created a statement on standards, so let's judt have a yeah or neah. Nonneed to "denigrate" anyone. Judt does this perfon meet the standard or not?
I really don't care about the other thread. There's nothing I'm missing you laid it dll out here.




I'm just trying to establish your baseline on the skiing part.


Again I wouldn't go with exact names ,( knowing the usual practices here ) this may create unnecessary confrontation ,  opposing one RIP(if this notion ever exist)  to another  or trying to MA persons who know this sport pretty well, this will lead us nowhere.I know what I'm talking about and I'm pretty sure that most of the regular posters here know their '' indisputable authorities '' pretty well too. It is better to discuss principles , not individuals (in their absence from the discussion) But since Philippe Juneau was already exposed for a discussion here let me satisfy (may be partially) your curiosity. Yes, I think he is a decent skier and a reliable ski tester. However I have 2 small problems with his presentations. First , he will never say anything negative about a ski that one can find for sale in Oberson ski shops and second , the way he presents the skis makes them all kinda quite similar -- whether  he demos a  frontside carver like Rossi Hero ST for example or a powderish ski like the Soul 7 they all ski the same when you watch his videos. Other then that it is always a pleasure  watching him  and particularly his video trip reports from all over Europe and NA - this guy travels a lot.

post #99 of 112
Hmm...seems like he was dropping his arms and allowing them to drag after a pole plant, thus pulling his shoulder back and leaving him prone to being in the back seat on the outside half, at the beginning of each turn. His shoulders are never squared facing down the fall line. Also he's extending the outside leg but doesn't seem to flex in the second half of the turn.

Maybe he was simply trying to be more visible to the camera. And maybe he is absolutely awesome at recommending skis. But not because of superior skiing skills.

I apologize if this is exactly the sort of post you were hoping to avoid.
post #100 of 112

Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post

 

Again I wouldn't go with exact names ,( knowing the usual practices here ) this may create unnecessary confrontation ,  opposing one RIP(if this notion ever exist)  to another  or trying to MA persons who know this sport pretty well, this will lead us nowhere.I know what I'm talking about and I'm pretty sure that most of the regular posters here know their '' indisputable authorities '' pretty well too.
Yes, I think he is a decent skier and a reliable ski tester. However ...

Thanks for finally answering!

It was a straightforward question - only about the skiing part.

 

The next post shows why it's a yes/no question. There's no need to ma Phllippe.

post #101 of 112
Quote:

 There's no need to ma Phllippe.

 

 Specific skis suit specific styles of skiing, Whist a detailed MA may not be in order, it is pertinent to now if the tester has the skills to put the equipment through it's full range.

post #102 of 112

What does being an excellent skier have to do with recommending skis for the general public? I would probably stay away from a ski that Ted Ligety recommended. I'm sure it would eat me up. A ski reviewer should certainly be a competent skier--Phillipe certainly is based on the little we see. More important is having skied a very large number of skis in a critical manner and having enough practice at reviewing skis and skiing skill to evaluate things like stiffness, how a ski likes to be handled, whether the mounting point is right, etc. In other words, it's a job. That's why I like 

Blister reviews, because reviewing is what they do. Although I'm sure the reviewers are much better skiers than I am they are able to evaluate a ski in a way that a weaker and less skilled skier can find useful. The two skis I've bought on their recommendation have been exactly as expected. 

I don't speak French but Phillipe's video is what I would call a sales demo, not a review.

I think Philpug does excellent reviews--particularly since his reviews compare a lot of skis in the same class so if you ski one you can get a good idea of how you might like the others.

post #103 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

 

 Specific skis suit specific styles of skiing, Whist a detailed MA may not be in order, it is pertinent to now if the tester has the skills to put the equipment through it's full range.


And how exactly you will evaluate if '' the tester has the skills to put the equipment through it's full range '' What will be your criteria ? And btw how the 4 names mentioned by markojp  at the beginning of this thread match your criteria ?

post #104 of 112
In the example, the poster would not buy a ski recommended by Ted Ligety, because it would "eat him up". He only knows this because of seeing Ted ski and knowing he excels at a specific type of skiing.

Edited to add, is Phillipe capable of recommending a ski to Ted?
post #105 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post

In the example, the poster would not buy a ski recommended by Ted Ligety, because it would "eat him up". He only knows this because of seeing Ted ski and knowing he excels at a specific type of skiing.

 

 

And that's fine - as far as @beyond's post #7 went, he forgot to do a bullet point on audience bias.    Breaking through listener/reader bias is possibly (depending on the reader :D ) a justifying rationale for the authoritarian aspects of ski recommendation.    It remains to be decided whether

 

1) It is easier for the RIP/gearpro to actively break out of their bias box than it is for the reader to be passively broken out of theirs.   

 

2) In an activity where enjoyment is the goal, can we really break someone out of their preconceptions and still have them enjoy themselves at a level to justify the breaking?

post #106 of 112
Authortarian ski recommendations? Is there such a thing evidenced by industry people who post here? I'd say the authortarianism comes more from the 'buy what I like and ski on' people who don't work in the industry.
post #107 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Authortarian ski recommendations? Is there such a thing evidenced by industry people who post here? I'd say the authortarianism comes more from the 'buy what I like and ski on' people who don't work in the industry.

 

Does explicit evidencing matter?   If there's no authority behind a post, why bother posting at all?

In my idiom, what you're noticing is the difference between implicit, understood, or acknowledged authority   and self-asserted authority.     Sure, self assertion gets old fast.   


To my mind a more interesting question is: Assuming pros are less biased how is it that they train to overcome bias?

post #108 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post

And btw how the 4 names mentioned by markojp  at the beginning of this thread match your criteria ?

I'm "buy it and try it" when it comes to ski gear purchases, so having an opinion on the four horsemen is of little relevance for me.
post #109 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post

And btw how the 4 names mentioned by markojp  at the beginning of this thread match your criteria ?

I'm "buy it and try it" when it comes to ski gear purchases, so having an opinion on the four horsemen is of little relevance for me.

 

How do you pick what to buy then try?

post #110 of 112

Darts. :D

post #111 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

 

To my mind a more interesting question is: Assuming pros are less biased how is it that they train to overcome bias?

 

Any shop that employees people with a lot of strong biases doesn't have a very good business model. That said, in my experience, the training a shop offers new hires, which includes participating in pre season rep talks and demos ( Reps are very good about answering 'Who is this ski for?"), and an in house session with the hard goods buyer to understand what is ordered, why, and for whom. This also includes time with experienced sales staff, both formally and informally. So what does less biased mean? To repeat myself, it means that when a customer comes into the shop, you ask a bunch of questions to understand THEIR narrative for enjoyment, and how they participate in the sport (racer? tech? off piste? touring?... etc..), then you find or suggest products that will meet their needs. Many shops and manufactures also have performance guarantees. If the product doesn't meet the customer's needs, then it can be returned for credit within a reasonable amount of time (4-5 ski days), and exchanged for a new ski. If there's a difference in cost (more), the customer covers it. If less, then the shop reimburses. Money is where the mouth is. It doesn't get any more clear than that. 

 

The only thing I have a very strong opinion about are people who go into a shop looking for an inflateable avy bag with no experience, training, other basic avy tool essentials (shovel/probe/beacon) and knowledge/practice of their use, and think that bag's the ticket to their health and well being in the back country. I won't sell them a bag without the other tools and giving them pamplets/links etc... to local avy training information, courses, and training schedules. That's where I draw my line. My employer can deal with it... doesn't do us a bit of good getting customers killed by their ignorance/hubris. 

post #112 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

How do you pick what to buy then try?

My main concern is to get a ski who's specifications match my height and weight and the terrain I mainly ski. Obviously budget also comes into play. That usually narrows the search down enough to make a short list. I will look through some of the objective reviews, but I've learned from experience that the only way to know if I will enjoy a ski, is to ski it. So yes, from there some of it is darts, and some of it is graphics. No shame in picking a ski you like the look of. I'm not good enough to notice finite differences in ski design, so generally speaking, most skis are adequate for me and some turn out great. I'm an evolving skier, so at some point I may benefit from a higher level of subjective input, but for now, I'm as happy as a pig in snow.
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