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Carving: deep and low - Page 12

post #331 of 338
Jacques with that technique you ROM is limited and creates numerous imbalance issues. Your feet are now too close together so all you can do is smear with your ski bases.That's why you get tossed with terrain change and have difficulty turning at low speeds. Take a lesson this season and be open to change.
post #332 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCski View Post
 

To all of the instructors giving MA, suggestion, instruction, etc:  could you post video (or link to other threads where you've posted video) of yourself carving "deep and low" so that those of us who are here to learn have a visual to correspond with your descriptions of movements used?  It certainly would be helpful for me and, I imagine, the many others who come here to learn.

 

Thanks!

 

(Razie and TDK, thanks again for the videos you've posted here!)

 

Thank you for that NCski. Cant remember if I posted this video here already or not. Probably did because it has some views. Anyway, the video is sporting footage from the original video and I have chosen two transitions to try to demo the challenge of staying "low" at edge change and "lower" at apex. First of all, when you ski like this you have to do it out of a squatted position out of which you extend into the turns. Not the other way around. Same goes for skiing bumps. And, you can only stay low at transition if you are rhythmically making turns to allow you to float during edge change. On the moon the turns would look different. In real time just like a very slow slow-motion. It has to do with gravity. Here on earth it quickly pulls us down while on the moon it pulls us slower giving us more floating time. When skiing fluffy deep powder we do venture into moon territory since friction between snow and lower body slows us down at the same time the snow also gives us lift to prolong the float in and out of transition. My favourite terrain is powder on bumps. Bumps giving me extra lift to float my transitions while still getting all that friction to slow me down and keep my speed under control in the fall line even on a very steep pitched slope.

 

Anyway, as you can see from the real time clip my speed is quite fast and the transition happens quickly. Not much time. Any delay in the turn phase that causes smaller edge angles and or bigger turn radius than anticipated causes delays in the transition which in turn causes back weight. Which in turn makes things worse since you have a problem weighting your ski tips at turn entry and your turn radius increases radically. What you need to do in such cases is being prepared to lift your CoM higher during transition. Let the turn forces bleed upwards instead of down-unweighting most of it by deep flexing through the transition. Lets take a look at it step by step:

 

 

1) At transition I'm in a position where my hips are up and above my kneecaps. However, I still released the turn by OLF. My inside left leg did extend a little but that was a passive extension to keep my ski on the snow and let the hips rice and not a push off. Note that my hips are a bit aft but it doesn't matter because I'm in a semi float where everything is more or less in balance.

 

2) I'm leaning into the next turn. Extending my new outside leg and flexing the new inside leg. This is what we call and "upside down" position where I lean downhill and my outside uphill ski is in fact my so called "downhill" ski. I'm remaining quite passive here as I incline into the turn. This is because I started out from a ferly high position at apex. And I'm in no rush.

 

3) Approaching apex you can see how I dropped my hips and really lean against my outside ski. My inside hand is quite close to the snow even if my shoulder line is almost horizontal and my hips not even close to the snow. This is because I'm really leaning forwards with my upper body. This is crucial because I will need to be able to extend some of my mass upwards while my skis are still on high edge angles and don't give me much upward push.

 

4) Here I'm in the belly of the turn. I often hear that coaches and instructors say that the turn should be made before apex and not afterwards but I'm not really prone to agree with that statement. I think the most important part of the turn is as you come past apex as you still have 50% of your turning to do and gravity swings around and starts pulling you in the opposite direction of where you want to go. You need to be able to use this to your advantage and not be pulled off your edges as most often is the case. You step on your inside ski in the hopes of making a clean OLF type transition but instead you step onto your inside ski and loose grip on your outside ski. Coming into this frame I kept my weight out over the outside ski and lifted my arms and unfolded at the waist. I also kept my upper body facing downhill and skied into counter. My folded upper body and skiing into counter helped me keep my outside ski pressure through the belly of the turn and I'm getting ready to release the turn by flexing my outside leg to stay low through the transition.

 

5) I released the previous turn by OLF to match the outside leg bend to the bend held on the inside leg. If you look at my old right inside leg in the segment coming into this frame you can see that it held onto its flex, it just untipped and vaulted up in vertical position. This was not the case in previous transition. In comparison to the previous transition I'm much lower with my hips at the same height as my knee caps. This is a very low position but typically how WC SL racers transition. It looks like they extend into transition but that is only because they had their hips scraping the snow surface at apex.

 

You need to have that momentum going. You need pressure, momentum and float. For that you need rhythm. Once you start to go as low as hips closer to the snow than the vertical distance from your kneecaps to the snow at apex you can start remaining low at edge change. As low as femurs parallel to the snow. And this is not something you do all day. This is something you do as a part of race or high performance ski training or racing.

 

Hope this helps.

post #333 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

 

I think the terms "horizontal separation" and "vertical separation" are hugely misleading, because they use a changing reference point. The terms are used to explain separation in relation to the rest of the body, but the body is moving constantly during a turn. So during transition and turn initiation, your separation is horizontal. But as you angulate, it suddenly becomes vertical? Let's cut away the confusion, and talk about a simple concept of separation. How far separated are the tracks you are making in the snow? If you have only "vertical" separation, and not "horizontal", then that distance is going to vary wildly as you go through the phases of a turn. If you have "horizontal" separation from transition to initiation, and "vertical" separation from apex to shaping, then guess what? Your stance width is going to stay far more consistent. 

 

Lets look at someone who is a better carver than I am, Mikaela Schiffrin:

 

Here, as she starts to go for her edge change, you can see she has a decent amount of what you would call "horizontal" separation:

 

Even further into the transition here, as the CoM comes over the skis, loads of "horizontal" separation:

 

But just past the apex, we see what you would call "vertical" separation:

 

Fully into the shaping phase of the turn, we see Mikaela has loads of "vertical" separation, and is practically sitting on the snow:

 

Then, putting it all  together, so you can see all phases: 

 

 

 

 

So in short, the terminology about "horizontal" and "vertical" separation is just fluff. Let's talk about the separation that really matters. And that's the separation between your skis as you go through the turn. In order to maintain separation that is needed to get low, hip-to-snow carves, you need to initiate the turn with a wider stance, because you're going to need that stance width as you angulate and get lower. Yes, your inside ski is going to end up closer to your outside leg in the turn, but you're still maintaining the necessary separation in your skis. That's what's important. 

 

Great discussion on horizontal and vertical separation following this posting. Yes its confusing since vertical is not always vertical and horizontal not always horizontal. You need not to have the horizon as a reference point. The reference point is the ski bases or the lower legs.

 

There are many good reasons for a small horizontal separation at apex when carving. For instance if you are skiing SL gates you can pass closer to the gate with your outside ski if your horizontal separation is more narrow. It also makes it easier to balance over your outside ski. If your stance is too wide then you are prone to weight your inside ski causing your outside ski to loose grip. Also, since both skis have the same turn radius, the closer you have your skis in a horizontal plane at turn initiation the easier it is to match their turn radius and keep them both carving.

 

As someone noted, if you have minimum horizontal separation at edge change (feet together) but maximum vertical separation at apex your skis are going to track narrow at edge change but wide at apex. Nothing wrong with that except if you want to lay down perfectly even tracks. Also, a wider stance, read bigger horizontal separation, will give you a more stable stance. That's why DH and SG skiers typically have a wider stance. Check this video of me carving with minimal horizontal separation from 2004 :)

 

 

 

Note how extended I am. The opposite of carving deep and low. Still OLF.

post #334 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by mowmow View Post

Jacques with that technique you ROM is limited and creates numerous imbalance issues. Your feet are now too close together so all you can do is smear with your ski bases.That's why you get tossed with terrain change and have difficulty turning at low speeds. Take a lesson this season and be open to change.


Thanks mowmow.  I can only take free lessons!  Hard to find those!

post #335 of 338
Beers Jacques
post #336 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

 

I think the terms "horizontal separation" and "vertical separation" are hugely misleading, because they use a changing reference point. The terms are used to explain separation in relation to the rest of the body, but the body is moving constantly during a turn. So during transition and turn initiation, your separation is horizontal. But as you angulate, it suddenly becomes vertical? Let's cut away the confusion, and talk about a simple concept of separation. How far separated are the tracks you are making in the snow? If you have only "vertical" separation, and not "horizontal", then that distance is going to vary wildly as you go through the phases of a turn. If you have "horizontal" separation from transition to initiation, and "vertical" separation from apex to shaping, then guess what? Your stance width is going to stay far more consistent. 

 

 

So in short, the terminology about "horizontal" and "vertical" separation is just fluff. Let's talk about the separation that really matters. And that's the separation between your skis as you go through the turn. In order to maintain separation that is needed to get low, hip-to-snow carves, you need to initiate the turn with a wider stance, because you're going to need that stance width as you angulate and get lower. Yes, your inside ski is going to end up closer to your outside leg in the turn, but you're still maintaining the necessary separation in your skis. That's what's important. 

 

Sorry to put you on the spot but I believe it is your description of horizontal vs vertical separation that is misleading and fluffy.

 

These two types of separations share significant distinction from each other:

 

Horizontal separation is simply the stance width one chooses to ski with that is based mostly on individual skier mechanics (primarily leg length) and then big speed differences and snow density which are all "small" horizontal stance width adjustments. Discussion of abduction and adduction is very insignificant because they are not represented by a significantly athletic, dynamic or functional motor pattern. We don't teach or coach stance width changes within the turn and only for regular stance, narrower for moguls and soft snow or a little width for big fast turns for a touch of added stability. Slalom racers use it as a tactic to increase lateral mobility in reaching their feet around highly off-set gates. Horizontal separation is more associated as output from intent.

 

Vertical separation, something completely different, is ski separation derived from lifting the inside foot/knee up the vertical axis of the body as the turn develops in order to create high angle tipping. This vertical separation is an athletic movement that is a key factor to the high angle tipping of advanced modern technical freeskiers. Like all motor patterns, it increases, peaks then decreases with the building and dissipation of turn forces. We typically only see a lot of it with racers, especially SL, and technically contemporary athletic advanced skiers. Vertical separation is more associated as input as intent.

post #337 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by mowmow View Post

Jacques with that technique you ROM is limited and creates numerous imbalance issues. Your feet are now too close together so all you can do is smear with your ski bases.That's why you get tossed with terrain change and have difficulty turning at low speeds. Take a lesson this season and be open to change.


BTW, I need to ask what is ROM.  Read Only Memory?  All the acronyms you guys use are very confusing to people like me who are trying to read these threads and learn anything.

After a while of searching I found it.  Range Of Motion.   Yes, smearing was what I was doing.  Hard to watch that old cell phone shaky video.   Be good now.

post #338 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

If you look at my old right inside leg in the segment coming into this frame you can see that it held onto its flex, it just untipped and vaulted up in vertical position. This was not the case in previous transition. In comparison to the previous transition I'm much lower with my hips at the same height as my knee caps. This is a very low position but typically how WC SL racers transition. It looks like they extend into transition but that is only because they had their hips scraping the snow surface at apex.

 

This is a very fine piece of explaining... Cheers. :beercheer:

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