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Feeling a bit overwhelmed with ski maintenance - help! - Page 3

post #61 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECski50 View Post

OP here. On the edge tuning front, I've gone ahead and bought a gummi stone and two diamond stones.

However, I'd like to change my side edge to 3 degrees instead of the factory 1. I have picked out a fixed angle file guide for this purpose. Three questions:

1) I never realized there were so many different types of files. Do I need multiple files or will one do? If one, which one?

2) Do I need to buy a sidewall planer if I plan on changing my side edge angle? It's another expensive thing to add to the list and I don't want to buy it unless I need to. Any advice?

3) Do I need to buy a lubricant for the diamond stones? Which one is recommended?


If you're changing the angle from 1, a rougher file would be better. It can also help with the sidewall. After that though, you will only need a smooth file. You can use a smooth file and just work a little more when changing the angle if it's not too many pairs.

 

Alternatively you can use a "second cut" file all the time, like the ICECUT second cut. Probably the better choice. I do a lot of skis and I use the smooth file a lot (for racing, diamonds are not enough) and a rough file sometimes, before the diamonds.

 

2. for sidewall planning. eh tricky. Yes, sidewalk planners are nice tools. Highly recommended but also a bit weird the first time you use them. Not used often on the same pair. Used quite often when you have 10 pairs to do per weekend. You can make do with a file and a 6 degree edge guide if you have one. You could also add a spacer to the 3 degree and have the file at 6 degrees or more (a thin plastic spacer under the file).

 

The tricky bit is that normally you want  a very aggressive panzer file for sidewall - it can clog a smooth file quickly and it's annoying.

 

That's why I was thinking it's best to have a shop set the 3 degree initially and then you just maintain it. It's not expensive and they should rip the sidewall for you as well.

 

3. mix 50/50 water and alcohol and spray on the diamond every couple passes. you can buy a small container with medicinal alcohol at any drug store. Dry the stone after use and wipe the edge with paper.

 

If you still plan to do it yourself initially, which is not in all honesty a big deal, I would:

- get a second cut file

- use the marker and get the edge to 3 degrees (mark the edge every 2-3 inches and file until marker rubbed off equally).

- jig the 3 degree edge to 6 degree with a small spacer under the file

- file some of the sidewall just under 3 degrees, just so the diamonds don't glide on it

- diamond the edge

- diamond the base lightly to deburr 

 

have fun.

 

The most important thing to do is to pay attention when you use the file, so your file doesn't slide off and scar the edge.

post #62 of 83
Personally, at first, I'd have the new side angle set by the shop. Yes, it's not hard to do, but he's just getting started and baby steps aren't as stressful at this joint. Once you start running, you'll be adding to your tool set every year. I love summer sales at Racewax and Slidewright.
post #63 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECski50 View Post

OP here. On the edge tuning front, I've gone ahead and bought a gummi stone and two diamond stones.

However, I'd like to change my side edge to 3 degrees instead of the factory 1. I have picked out a fixed angle file guide for this purpose. Three questions:

1) I never realized there were so many different types of files. Do I need multiple files or will one do? If one, which one?

2) Do I need to buy a sidewall planer if I plan on changing my side edge angle? It's another expensive thing to add to the list and I don't want to buy it unless I need to. Any advice?

3) Do I need to buy a lubricant for the diamond stones? Which one is recommended?


You need a sidewall planer.    Here: http://www.the-raceplace.com/Plane-BEAST-p/3014z.htm

 

If you just get one file get one that is considered medium. Here: scroll down to see.  http://www.the-raceplace.com/BEAST-Files-p/3048z.htm  Before you file that edge be sure to go over it well with a coarse diamond stone first at the current angle.  Or you can use sandpaper wrapped around a file as well.

 

Use a mixture of 50-50 water and denatured alcohol.  You can get denatured alcohol at a hardware store.

post #64 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 You can get denatured alcohol at a hardware store.

yeah.. but that's not natural... :eek

 

:rotflmao:

post #65 of 83
Dude, keep it simple. Use straight water for the diamond stones. Use an old tooth brush to scrub the metal off.

Use a colored (cause it's pretty) Sharpie on the edge before filing. That way it's easier to see when you've fon

See, this is were you have to modify people's advice. Like scraping and brushing wax in a small NYC apartment- that's not such a good idea. One time doing it and you'll know why.

There's no reason to introduce alcohol. Just use water. Let people argue about it.

Yes, you need a sidewall planer.
Here's one for $40 I've used for years. Not the easiest to use but once you adjust it and get the hang of it not bad.


http://www.fktools-us.com/Product-Details.asp?Part-Number=3132

File for general use- 6 inch, around 13-14 teeth/cm. Chrome will have it rust less while it sits around stored.
post #66 of 83
Thread Starter 

OP here again. So I tried tuning my skis today. No idea what I'm really doing, to be honest. I will describe what I did and hopefully you guys can tell me if I am barking up the right tree. There was way too much material out there, I'd say what I most closely followed was this video for simplicity. I did not file the edges or set a new angle - I just used the stones to sharpen them before I wax for summer storage.

 

  1. I wiped down my ski base with a wet paper towel, tip to tail.
  2. I brushed my ski base with a brass brush, tip to tail, always tip to tail so I'll stop typing it now.
  3. I dragged a towel over the edges to see where it snagged and also inspected for burrs (there was one), rust spots (several), and other spots (black spots on the metal).
  4. I dragged the 100 diamond stone against the base edge, a few times down the ski. Then repeated the same thing for the 400 diamond stone. In between each run down the base edge, I would wet the diamond stone in water to get the metal shavings off of it and keep it lubricated. I struggled to determine whether or not any part of the stone was actually making contact with the base of the ski as opposed to just the base edge metal. Not sure how to figure that out. Basically just kept it flush and tried to apply more pressure where the metal was than on the base. *shrugs*
  5. I then ran a gummy stone along the base edge. I don't know if this accomplished anything whatsoever.
  6. I repeated steps #4 and #5 for the side edge. It was a bit harder to make sure I was "perfectly flush" than with the base edge, but I think I got it. Sometimes it made a scraping metallic noise and sometimes it made no noise. I imagine this depends on if the angle I am dragging it along is perfectly flush or slightly off. 

 

In the end, the burrs are gone and the rust is 95% removed. I guess that is good. That said, I have no idea if I accomplished anything or ruined my skis, etc. It's weird doing this because I am following instructions from the web but have no idea what is really happening (like - what is the purpose of the gummy stone, does it really do anything except detune, etc.)

 

Next up, waxing...

post #67 of 83
So.. No guides. I'm sure the ski isn't ruined yet, but stop hitting the base edge without a guide or it'll be over-beveled in no time.
post #68 of 83
that's not sharpening the edges it's removing burrs.
Stop with these crappy videos.
You want detailed vids from people who know what they're doing. Then eliminate stuff not relevant or over precise for your needs. Look for separating method of working from work being done. Vids like Doug Coombs quik and painless tune posted above is not good for you as it teaches nothing.

Use a guide on the sides, stop with the base. If there's a burr on the base ok, but you are just getting rid of the Burr. Gummi stone is fairly pointless really. -what are you trying to accomplish with it?

In general, start asking why you're doing things and what's it doing.
post #69 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECski50 View Post
 

OP here again. So I tried tuning my skis today. No idea what I'm really doing, to be honest. I will describe what I did and hopefully you guys can tell me if I am barking up the right tree. There was way too much material out there, I'd say what I most closely followed was this video for simplicity. I did not file the edges or set a new angle - I just used the stones to sharpen them before I wax for summer storage.

 

  1. I wiped down my ski base with a wet paper towel, tip to tail.
  2. I brushed my ski base with a brass brush, tip to tail, always tip to tail so I'll stop typing it now.
    great - always start with that
  3. I dragged a towel over the edges to see where it snagged and also inspected for burrs (there was one), rust spots (several), and other spots (black spots on the metal).
  4. I dragged the 100 diamond stone against the base edge, a few times down the ski. Then repeated the same thing for the 400 diamond stone. In between each run down the base edge, I would wet the diamond stone in water to get the metal shavings off of it and keep it lubricated. I struggled to determine whether or not any part of the stone was actually making contact with the base of the ski as opposed to just the base edge metal. Not sure how to figure that out. Basically just kept it flush and tried to apply more pressure where the metal was than on the base. *shrugs*
  5. I then ran a gummy stone along the base edge. I don't know if this accomplished anything whatsoever.
  6. I repeated steps #4 and #5 for the side edge. It was a bit harder to make sure I was "perfectly flush" than with the base edge, but I think I got it. Sometimes it made a scraping metallic noise and sometimes it made no noise. I imagine this depends on if the angle I am dragging it along is perfectly flush or slightly off. 

 

In the end, the burrs are gone and the rust is 95% removed. I guess that is good. That said, I have no idea if I accomplished anything or ruined my skis, etc. It's weird doing this because I am following instructions from the web but have no idea what is really happening (like - what is the purpose of the gummy stone, does it really do anything except detune, etc.)

 

Next up, waxing...

Always use a guide. You can do the base without a guide after a while...

 

The issue with using a file and/or 100 stone on the base is that every time, the base bevel gets slightly bigger and the ski will feel mushier over time. Only do that if there's a big ding in the edge or something weird (hardened steel etc).

 

To see if you got the entire surface, use a marker first. Mark the entire edge, about 1 inch every 2-3 inches. That is an instant indication you got the entire edge.

 

Gummy on the base edge - no. These are the steps:

1. side file

2. side diamond

3. base diamond 400 for deburring

4. glide the gummy along eh edge at 45 degrees for final deburring.

 

Before 1, you could use the 100 on either base or side, if there's big burrs or hardened steel.

post #70 of 83

Sorry I'm so late to the game,

http://www.tognar.com/

 

Start with their catalog, that's one of the things I did back in the late 1990's. You need a good set of ski vises and edge guides, also  something like the ski visions base flattener tools. Without flat bases to run the guides on your angles will be off.

 

You need to invest some money to save money in the long run.

 

Do you have a good work table and decent lighting ? I have my table bolted to the floor post/beam so it doesn't move while I'm working.

post #71 of 83
If I recall, he's in an apartment, so there won't be any bolting going on.
post #72 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

If I recall, he's in an apartment, so there won't be any bolting going on.


Oh dear...I guess he's laying a sheet down and working on the kitchen floor.

 

 

 

Here's another great site without standing customer service.

 

http://www.slidewright.com/clientlogin.php

 

OP you might want to start off by having your skis done by a shop one last time. That should give you a good bases to start from. I touch up my edges with a 200 grit moonflex stone after every ski day. I use a 93* steel edge guide. I make sure my bases are flat and the edges sharp before I wax them after 3 or 4 ski day's. I have skis that have never been tuned by a shop since I bought them.

 

It doesn't take a lot of work if you keep up with them. My daily touch up takes me 5 minutes or less, but my set up is ready to go.

post #73 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post

 

Here's another great site without standing customer service.

 

http://www.slidewright.com/clientlogin.php

All customers must be sitting or will not be served. Though riding a bike is ok. Even a motorcycle or car. Just not standing.

post #74 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Dude, keep it simple. Use straight water for the diamond stones. Use an old tooth brush to scrub the metal off.

Use a colored (cause it's pretty) Sharpie on the edge before filing. That way it's easier to see when you've fon

See, this is were you have to modify people's advice. Like scraping and brushing wax in a small NYC apartment- that's not such a good idea. One time doing it and you'll know why.

There's no reason to introduce alcohol. Just use water. Let people argue about it.

Yes, you need a sidewall planer.
Here's one for $40 I've used for years. Not the easiest to use but once you adjust it and get the hang of it not bad.


http://www.fktools-us.com/Product-Details.asp?Part-Number=3132

File for general use- 6 inch, around 13-14 teeth/cm. Chrome will have it rust less while it sits around stored.

Okay, I'll argue you need to break the surface tension of the water to keep the stones clear of particles.   It make a big difference!
This video will show you the difference of only a bit of alcohol added.  Tuning fluid should be a 50-50 mix. 

post #75 of 83

Water-alcohol also dries faster than water alone. But sure, if no alcohol on hand water alone is certainly better than nothing.

post #76 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor D View Post
 

Water-alcohol also dries faster than water alone. But sure, if no alcohol on hand water alone is certainly better than nothing.


Agreed.  Dry is a huge no no.  Also, although in the tuning phase you should not have any oil or grease on your skis,  the alcohol and water mix will cut oil and grease.  It won't cut wax though.  Often times people place their oily hands on the ski base.  When that happens it can aid in the wax job not adhering as well.

 

The Doctor knows best.

post #77 of 83
Drop of soap can also be used (I do mean ONE drop dish soap with no skin softeners), just to relieve the surface tension and improve wetting. Can also be used with alcohol (which is likely what is in the specialized solutions).
post #78 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

Drop of soap can also be used (I do mean ONE drop dish soap with no skin softeners), just to relieve the surface tension and improve wetting. Can also be used with alcohol (which is likely what is in the specialized solutions).


I agree, but for the sake of others, one drop to how much water?  

post #79 of 83
1 drop per 250ml (personally I like Palmolive, the green stuff).

It's not to make it soapy, just to improve the wetting action. Improve not pollute.
post #80 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

1 drop per 250ml (personally I like Palmolive, the green stuff).

It's not to make it soapy, just to improve the wetting action. Improve not pollute.


Nice info.  Gotta' love it!   I think the surfactants in Dawn may be even better though!

post #81 of 83

Dawn over Palmolive!  Sorry, i can't help myself!

post #82 of 83

Interesting. sidecut.com sells these interesting round diamonds and recommends light oil as lubricant - seen a few parents do that. I didn't like the fact that it could get into the base and mess with wax absorption, right along the edge...

post #83 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Interesting. sidecut.com sells these interesting round diamonds and recommends light oil as lubricant - seen a few parents do that. I didn't like the fact that it could get into the base and mess with wax absorption, right along the edge...


Cutting oil is great for drilling holes and using taps and dies, but oil in my ski shop is a no no!   Although some of those are water soluble oils, I still won't use them.

 

4FVD9_AS01?$zmmain$

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