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Knock kneed? Bow legged? Canting and alignment examples

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

Hi all, 

 

Wondering if anyone can share some examples of what an alignment change looks like on snow. I'd like to see some before and after video/pictures of different alignment issues and their fixes. Appreciate any help. 

post #2 of 15

I agree, pictures, maybe accompanied with video, would be very informative.

 

Diagnosis comes first!

Instructors also need to know how to recognize when a skier needs alignment work, and when that skier simply needs to move differently with no boot work.   Photos (and maybe video) along with verbal descriptions of how to diagnose this would be very helpful.  I'm shocked, shocked, that such information is not available from PSIA and shared commonly amongst national teaching organizations.  

 

If this knowledge were common and easily available, bootfitters would benefit from this knowledge as well as skiers and instructors.

 

This is a PhD dissertation opportunity that would actually make a difference.

post #3 of 15

"undercanted" knock kneed


Correctly aligned with the center of the knee plumb with the center of the foot.

 

What the boot makers label as cant adjustments on the boot cuffs are not canting.  They are cuff alignment.  The cuff needs to be aligned with the lower leg, but this is not alignment where the knee is brought over the foot by wedges, either installed on the boot sole, or under the bindings, or the boot sole ground to the correct angle.  The wedge is placed under the side of the boot to bring the knee over the foot, the wide edge of the cant under the inside of the knock kneed skier, and vice versa for the bow legged skier.  It is not to keep the misalignment while getting the boot flat on the floor.

 

Posted footbeds are different.  These align the ankle.  The ankle that rolls inward pronates.  This can be seen often by a person standing with their feet splayed out at an angle when they are set so the knees flex downward but maintain the space between the knees.  If the feet are set parallel and the legs flexed, the knees come together.  Posting the footbeds (raised on the inside) aligns the ankles so the feet can be parallel and the knees flex parallel.  Supination is the opposite.  Note that intentionally rolling the ankle to the inside is eversion, and to the outside is inversion.  These are intentional movements; pronation and supination are body structure.

post #4 of 15

 

Some technical work with this one, of course, but major boot fixes. Boots much stiffer, one size smaller, aligned and canted significantly... guess which is "after" sic! I think the shots are maybe 2-3 weekends apart.

 

Too much hassle to find&upload before vid, here's an "after" on boilerplate/injected - I don't think this thing can even be carved with anything but perfect alignment:

 

 

post #5 of 15
The ski instructing body that shall not be named has an alignment manual that I actually got yesterday, haven't had a chance to get through all of it but it looks good so far. 
post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post
 
The ski instructing body that shall not be named has an alignment manual that I actually got yesterday, haven't had a chance to get through all of it but it looks good so far. 

 

Thumbs Up

 

Is that in HH's first book or a separate manual?

 

there's also lots of info in Warren W's books.

post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post
 
The ski instructing body that shall not be named has an alignment manual that I actually got yesterday, haven't had a chance to get through all of it but it looks good so far. 


Link?

post #8 of 15

in my medium radius thread you can see what a 2mm toe lift and cuff alignment adjustment did.

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/133377/medium-radius-turns-ma

 

It's not drastic but I did make some "boot changes"

post #9 of 15
No link exists. Take that company's alignment technician training course to get the manual. Much of the content is presented during the course itself rather than in the manual. Case studies are done with hours and hours of recent video of skiers undergoing alignment and with on snow experiments; they are not included in the manual.

It's not clear what value the manual's content would have for those who include rotary or wedging in their bag of tricks since its entire focus is to enhance balance over a brushing or arcing ski edge.
post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

No link exists. Take that company's alignment technician training course to get the manual. Much of the content is presented during the course itself rather than in the manual. Case studies are done with hours and hours of recent video of skiers undergoing alignment and with on snow experiments; they are not included in the manual.

It's not clear what value the manual's content would have for those who include rotary or wedging in their bag of tricks since its entire focus is to enhance balance over a brushing or arcing ski edge.

Well, I just got it from the link below, I'd be interested in the course, but it's expensive and whilst a friend who skied with HH the other day said he's actually a nice guy in person. I fear that condescending and unfriendly attitudes like yours might be present.
[URL=http://harbskisystems.com/collections/books/products/alignment-technician-course-manual
[/URL]
post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

Thumbs Up

 

Is that in HH's first book or a separate manual?

 

there's also lots of info in Warren W's books.

Separate found on their website.  YM

post #12 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

No link exists. Take that company's alignment technician training course to get the manual. Much of the content is presented during the course itself rather than in the manual. Case studies are done with hours and hours of recent video of skiers undergoing alignment and with on snow experiments; they are not included in the manual.

It's not clear what value the manual's content would have for those who include rotary or wedging in their bag of tricks since its entire focus is to enhance balance over a brushing or arcing ski edge.


Wait.  Are you saying that a skier who eclectically arcs, brushes, wedges, and rotarizes, using each of those when they choose, would somehow erase the value of their boots being aligned properly?

How might that work?  Cooties transmitted to the boot sole wedges?

 

I get it that the manal is only avaliable to people who take the course.  The course conductor has every right to limit availability.  But what you say up there is unnecessarily patronizing.  
 

post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

No link exists. Take that company's alignment technician training course to get the manual. Much of the content is presented during the course itself rather than in the manual. Case studies are done with hours and hours of recent video of skiers undergoing alignment and with on snow experiments; they are not included in the manual.

It's not clear what value the manual's content would have for those who include rotary or wedging in their bag of tricks since its entire focus is to enhance balance over a brushing or arcing ski edge.

Let me get this straight.

 

You took this alignment course, and the owner of that company showed before-and-after videos of skiers who benefitted from getting their boots aligned.  I get that; those skiers must have been brushing and arcing their skis by the company's rules.  But you got the message in this camp that the alignment wouldn't help skiers who are not yet brushing and arcing their skis.  Did the owner of that company show you before-and-after videos of those skiers, and point out that the alignent didn't do them any good?  Is that where you got this idea?

 

I know for a fact that skiers who take this company's camps who have not shed their upper body rotary, who are popping up and pivoting, who are extending off the new outside ski and displaying a stem entry for all their turns, are aligned at these camps.  The alignment evals start the weekend before the camps, when the skiing hasn't even been seen.  That alignment is encouraged very strongly.  

 

But by your assessment, those people will not benefit from having their boots aligned, and so they are being sold something worthless to them at their level of development.  Does that company's owner know you are implying this on Epic?

post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

No link exists. Take that company's alignment technician training course to get the manual. Much of the content is presented during the course itself rather than in the manual. Case studies are done with hours and hours of recent video of skiers undergoing alignment and with on snow experiments; they are not included in the manual.

It's not clear what value the manual's content would have for those who include rotary or wedging in their bag of tricks since its entire focus is to enhance balance over a brushing or arcing ski edge.

Let me get this straight.

 

You took this alignment course, and the owner of that company showed before-and-after videos of skiers who benefitted from getting their boots aligned.  I get that; those skiers must have been brushing and arcing their skis by the company's rules.  But you got the message in this camp that the alignment wouldn't help skiers who are not yet brushing and arcing their skis.  Did the owner of that company show you before-and-after videos of those skiers, and point out that the alignent didn't do them any good?  Is that where you got this idea?

 

I know for a fact that skiers who take this company's camps who have not shed their upper body rotary, who are popping up and pivoting, who are extending off the new outside ski and displaying a stem entry for all their turns, are aligned at these camps.  The alignment evals start the weekend before the camps, when the skiing hasn't even been seen.  That alignment is encouraged very strongly.  

 

But by your assessment, those people will not benefit from having their boots aligned, and so they are being sold something worthless to them at their level of development.  Does that company's owner know you are implying this on Epic?

 

Not trying to speak for some other posters, but I think I hear that is not clear what benefits one gets if one's going to use wedges (which require contorsions and no alignment unless I'm mistaken) and rotary which means rather the opposite of balancing on an edge. It is very clear on the other hand the benefits one gets when one wants to carve on a stable edge/platform... balancing on an edge.

 

That's what I read there... 

 

It is kind'a the same message WW was sending back in 1970s, so I don't see any :eek in that there statement...

 

:dunno

 

I know that good alignment is usually considered a prerequisite to learning proper skiing, as it simplifies or brings within reach balance on an edge... so I guess that would be the value one would get... if one was indeed interested in pursuing proper skiing :p as you can see from my example posted above - i don't have the before videos uploaded, but they included every possible contortion known to man and then some, to get those skis on edge quickly with really poor alignment... not because he wanted to but rather had to...

 

cheers


Edited by razie - 4/15/16 at 5:29am
post #15 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

Not trying to speak for some other posters, but I think I hear that is not clear what benefits one gets if one's going to use wedges (which require brute force and no alignment unless I'm mistaken) and rotary which means rather the opposite of balancing on an edge. It is very clear on the other hand the benefits one gets when one wants to carve on a stable edge/platform... balancing on an edge.

 

A few points:

 

It sounds like you're describing snowplow turns, rather than wedge turns. The actual biomechanics of a wedge are the same as in a parallel turn. In my mind, the only effects of the wedge are to (possibly) introduce a tiny bit of extra friction, and to shorten the turn (since your new outside ski tends to be pointing almost down the fall line, depending on how big of a wedge you're using).  Skiers who don't balance on the outside ski during a wedge turn, or who use brute force to muscle the ski around aren't doing very effective wedge turns. 

 

Instructors freeski in parallel, even though they might use wedge turns with some students. 

 

If we can improve the "look" of a knock-kneed instructor, it helps their students. (I shudder at the thought of new skiers imitating a knock-kneed instructor.)

 

Skiers who are out of alignment can only flatten their skis by going through some contortions. Turning the lower joints adds additional contortion. So the out-of-alignment skier is working with multiple layers of contortion. Surely that's not an optimal situation. 

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