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Skiing improvement for professionals - Page 2

post #31 of 169

Braquage to facilitate carving? Are you talking about reducing it so the skis do not pivot? If so the connection of that pivot slip to an arced turn is a bit curious Mike. If anything it develops the ability to redirect the skis using ILS prior to full engagement of the edges. After that some steering is possible to create a tighter arc but overall better drills exist to introduce arced turns. RRX and ARCED J turns come to mind.

post #32 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

As an instructor/coach and student of the sport there are several questions I am always asking myself.   What are the most important activities for me to practice in order to improve my skiing, particularly in the shortest period of time.    I certainly do not want to practice the wrong tasks and I certainly do not want to get better at skiing poorly.   (Perfect practice makes perfect)    Besides skiing and practicing tasks and skills what other activities can I incorporate in my quest for improvement?  Example, watching tapes of the of the best in the world.   Maybe we could start a discussion of what sort of specific things or exercises or tasks or activities folks practice to get better.  YM

I have a set of drills and key movements I use to help reinforce/redevelop key movements when my skiing is a little (cough) rusty. I take lessons from some high end coaches (e.g. Chris Allen - Aussie demo team last year). Those are my primary activities to get better. Ah, but you qualified "besides skiing and " tasks. It may sound silly, but I've found golf to be quite helpful. Strangely enough high level skiers tend to be very good golfers. Golf swings start from the ground up just like ski turns do. Hip movement is key to a good golf swing as well as a good ski turn. Walking 5-6 miles/day and carrying a little extra weight doesn't hurt either. Lastly, it's hard for me to undervalue the mental discipline needed for golf. I also play a little racquetball to add a little start/stop quickness to my cross training. Finally, I have an exercise routine I do at home with exercise bands, free weights and a medicine ball that works primarily on upper body strength and all body flexibility that gets augmented by a few trips to the gym. A yoga instructor once told me one of my exercises was actually yoga, but I think she was just being kind. Whatever. I've been collecting new exercises to do from my golf studies. A lot of my exercises came from PT.

post #33 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

I had the fortune of learning to inline skate with one of Canada's few skate-to-ski coaches/examiners, certified by the ICP and SkateIA, and a level 3 CSIA guy. The difference between my coach and the fellow in the video is that the guy in the video seems not to be a ski instructor, and he's a functional but not good inline skater. So yeah, the guy's going through some motions of both inline skating and skiing, but the turning effort is coming from a lot of undesirable movements. You can (and arguably should) work on things like separation, turning with the lower joints, balancing early on the outside skate, etc. But because skaters are usually on flat terrain, they tend to not face consequences of not doing so. Great post! I agree with everything here. While the skater may not have presented a "great" sample of skate carving itself, it may have been in part do to his efforts at compiling a good number of drills all of which may not have been fully adopted by the subject. These are balance drills that will improve balance and control on flatter slope angles for which a increasing slope angle will provide an excellent path for modifications of difficulty. Interestingly enough, slower falls on skates can be more injurious than falls on faster and steeper asphalt. Most importantly stated, I feel, is your mention of a potential transferability of undesirable movements which would be less likely with drills and more so with the actual carving due to its close level of relativity to skiing. Furthermore, my "stance" on alpine inline is much in regards to actually skating a steeper slope 20 to 30 degrees (just for turns and not so much drills) that is not very popular as evidenced on YouTube. Ultimately, anything that challenges balance is going to be good for one's skiing.

 

Inline skates also hold traction differently from skis. A ski has no grip until it starts tipping on its side. Just have a beginner ride a cattrack and you'll notice their skis squirreling around all over the place. A skate, on the other hand, has major grip when vertical. Unlike skis, skates do not have pointy side edges that dig into the ground, so extending too far away from the skate will cause it to slide unless you get major angulation on it. The mechanics of gripping and gliding work differently enough to warrant some lessons. Agreed, but also why inline is better than ice skating in that one can feather a carve on inline but not nearly so on ice. The application of "skid" in a downhill inline skate turn is a high level skill for which lessons would be key for many. It may be more commonly one of those things that is learned from its unintentional happenstance from which the identification of its elements for intended application can be produced. ....such as, many of the skills learned with skiing that are only possible when certain dynamics of higher level skiing are met.

 

That said, the gliding feeling is the same between skis and skates, as is the idea of balance in motion. In fact, I'd say balance in motion is probably the most important expert skill in both skiing and inline skating. It's elusive for most skiers; I don't see many level 1s and 2s who can properly skate, and even fewer can skate their way through arcs in balance. There aren't many things I do great on skis, but one of those is balancing in motion. It's mostly due to inline skating. Here, I agree emphatically. I have an inline speedskating background for which my technique has been retained much more than my athletic endurance. A long and patient balancing on the inside little toe "edge", or the "glide" phase while remaining low can provide/require a more refined sense of balance than alpine inline. 

 

Going back to the OP, the one thing that I've done as a ski professional this year to improve my skiing has been to improve my understanding of skiing. Check out the "We ski the way we think about skiing" thread that I started for some ideas on it. Some video can help, as will the eye of a masterful instructor (I was fortunate enough to have the best guy in Canada on my side), and loads of time on-snow (which is in short supply this time of year). But you could definitely work with inline skating in the off-season. I thought that was a good thread subject that I thought would have gained more traction than it did. Self visualization has been a huge factor for competitors of many sports and, perhaps, most common with skiing. When used outside of competition for learning, I agree wholeheartedly a confirmation of what is being "self visualized" such as through video or instructor observation is very key. As well, I think that the preponderance of wayward and inaccurate self visualization is a key factor for the complacency with which skiers facilitate as justification for their lack of value seen in taking lessons.

 

While there are going to be certain differences in ideal movements between skiing and skating, that is also going to be reflective of the cross-training elements that do ultimately provide cross-improvement benefits. The heightened state of balance with skating vs skiing is inevitably going to be directly representative of other differences, there indications of which, are not going to be ideal traits of transferability. 

 

 

post #34 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post


I see little kids in race programs do this all the time without a clue why, except that it's cool.  
One ski on, one ski off, and away they go.  They eventually become the best skiers on the hill.
Did that drill/task/exercise contribute?  Probably.  

It's like a "right of passage". I coach a train to race program and one of the goals is to get the kids ready to join U10s the following season or two (depending on age). The kids view skiing on one ski as "the thing" that makes them racers (just like the older kids I the U program). I use it as a reward for them. We start early season doing drills to get them ready. The video above looks like one of them. Micheala Shiffrin calls it the "Up and over" drill (at least it looks like it is the same thing). One of the obstacles for young racers is they don't commit or balance on the outside ski. If that's the only ski there to balance on, you learn pretty quick.

The up and over is such a good drill because there are key features in it and to do it, so many other things need to be right; stance, balance, pressure, edge control etc. Not everyone (adults included) can change edges with the ski across the fall line, even on two skis. When you can then do that with only one ski on, turning in each direction, that's a pretty strong skier.

But like with any drill, it isn't just the drill, but the terrain you do it on.
post #35 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

Actually, I was thinking more about specific training on skis.   For example if I religiously practice Wedge Christies and  truly master them, will that improve my skiing.  If I master  pivot slips, will that improve my skiing.   Mind you now that my standard for great skiing is Marcel Hirscher or Mikela S.    YM   


Actually PROPERLY DONE Wedge Christies use ALL the same movement patterns as an open parallel and dynamic parallel turn. Sure there is some steering/rotary but in the big picture, it's minimal and does NOT need to be "un-learned"

 

Traditional "snow plows" and "stem christies" are another conversation.

 

So in answer to your above question, YES truly master the movement patterns that produce a proper wedge christie, and pivot slip, and these will improve your skiing.

 

That being said, The one thing I found that will train you the fastest once you have begun to build some mastery of good turn mechanics IE: you can make just about any turn properly on groomed snow regardless of pitch and stay in good balance, then take those same turns and ski them in the worst crud/chopped up, frozen, mank flypaper, etc snow you can find. As horrible as it feels, don't give into straight running it out. keep working those turn mechanics. When those begin to feel manageable, find even worse conditions and keep going.. every chance you get, when all your buddies are giving up and headed to the cafe for a cup of coffee, or hot cocoa, ski a few extra runs.

 

read/watch Bob Barnes's "Crudology" and get in it!

post #36 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
 

Actually PROPERLY DONE Wedge Christies use ALL the same movement patterns as an open parallel and dynamic parallel turn. Sure there is some steering/rotary but in the big picture, it's minimal and does NOT need to be "un-learned"

 

 

 

I am not an expert in wedges, and snow plows.. but I know you're kidding because there is no way you can transfer to the outside edges of either ski, when you have to keep them on their inside edges (by inside I mean medial) !

 

How do you get a ski on the outside edge or even flat, when skiing in a wedge? How does one learn to switch from edge to edge in a wedge? How do you learn to balance on the outside ski while in a wedge? What does the wedge have to do with actual parallel skiing?

 

I submit that if you ski parallel the way you ski wedge, you're doing it wrong !

 

p.s. if you're a student, you should always ask for the "direct parallel" progressions...

post #37 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

I am not an expert in wedges, and snow plows.. but I know you're kidding because there is no way you can transfer to the outside edges of either ski, when you have to keep them on their inside edges (by inside I mean medial) !

 

How do you get a ski on the outside edge or even flat, when skiing in a wedge? How does one learn to switch from edge to edge in a wedge? How do you learn to balance on the outside ski while in a wedge? What does the wedge have to do with actual parallel skiing?

 

I submit that if you ski parallel the way you ski wedge, you're doing it wrong !

 

p.s. if you're a student, you should always ask for the "direct parallel" progressions...

 

Totally serious.

 

Think of it the otherway around. Ski your wedge like you were skiing an open parallel turn. (just with a little more guidance of the ski into a slight wedge) I would submit that If you are skiing your wedges to brake, then you are skiing your wedge and wedge christies wrong and I would agree with your premise that the wedge in this form is a dead end movement.


A narrow gliding wedge is not a wide braking wedge however it will create a little more friction. The skis are already almost flat. The stance width might be just a slight bit wider (talking very slight) than pelvis width but it will give a student, especially a new student a strong confident base of support. along with some speed control. Steering the outside ski (in a proper wedge turn) we are not trying to put that ski on edge as much as we are trying to turn that ski. Weight will move to the outside (physics) and if the student puts it on a slight edge, it will start to turn. The gentle rotary action if done from the femur in the hip socket will create (usually) just a little bit of edge angle just because that's what the joints will do. I would hope that anyone teaching in a modern ski school realizes that a wedge "does not need to be kept only on their inside edges" Nothing to "unlearn" if we are NOT teaching them to jam on both inside edges. Now not all instructors do this so YMMV

 

So if you take the premise that a gliding wedge is on an almost flat ski, and you allow some counter to develop during the shaping phase of the turn just as you would in a dynamic parallel turn, you extend using the old inside ski as it becomes the new outside ski (transition) and allow the new inside ankle/knee to flex, your CoM WILL cross over to the inside of the turn or just over the inside ski, flattening it and releasing that edge. The counter you skied into (hopefully) will assist you in beginning your new turn, wedge or parallel. You may not get a dynamic turn, due to speed, (most likely) however, gentle guiding of the new inside ski to it's little toe edge will produce a wedge christie where keeping it where it is will create a wedge turn. If you increase the speed, the weight will transfer to the new outside ski (inside edge) so you have foot to foot weight transfer.

 

Advance this to an advanced wedge christie and there should be an almost simultaneous edge release and edge change earlier in the turn. Then advance this to an open parallel and there will be earlier guiding (or tipping if you will) to create a true simultaneous edge release and edge change. If you have been skiing into appropriate counter (wedge, wedge christie and open parallel), this will also create "passive rotation" as the ski edges release and begin your new turn.

 

In that Other "system" this action of tipping the ski would create some passive rotary movement and also help start a ski turning into the new turn.

post #38 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post

All good questions.    My question, how and what do I train to get the most bang for my buck.  How should I teach/coach so my students get the most bang for their buck?  YM

What are your relative ski skill set weaknesses? Which lesson assignments cause you the most angst? Any other off season fitness/activity goals that dovetail with skiing?
post #39 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
 

 

.

 

 If you have been skiing into appropriate counter (wedge, wedge christie and open parallel), this will also create "passive rotation" as the ski edges release and begin your new turn.

 

In that Other "system" this action of tipping the ski would create some passive rotary movement and also help start a ski turning into the new turn.

When you refer to passive rotation, to what are you referring to?   What's rotating, the legs, upper body, the skis, the skier?    Also, how does one determine appropriate counter?   YM

post #40 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 
When you refer to passive rotation, to what are you referring to?   What's rotating, the legs, upper body, the skis, the skier?    Also, how does one determine appropriate counter?   YM

 

Was that a serious question?

 

At the lower levels precision is not a big deal so we use a 

 

 

 

For racing, it of course becomes more a question of strategy and sometimes tactics, so we use more precision instrumentation:

 


Of course, the trick is to find those elusive milliseconds on course by learning to figure it out, approximating with precision without using the tool in every turn !

 

This is why the USSA came up with permanent approximation rules like  "the wall":

 

 

 

:rotflmao: 

 

:beercheer: 

post #41 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

When you refer to passive rotation, to what are you referring to?   What's rotating, the legs, upper body, the skis, the skier?    Also, how does one determine appropriate counter?   YM


If you ski through the end of your turn and stay squared your skis, you will not have any upper and lower body separation. There will not be any "torsional tension" built up in your core muscles or your legs turned under your upper body. Therefore if you release your edges at this point, your skis may drift a little towards the fall line but you will probably have to do something else to also get the skis turning. Tipping the skis to the new inside edges will create a little bit of turning. Try to stand on one foot and tip the foot that is in the air to one edge or another. Generally it will turn a little too. Especially if you are tipping by trying to move the tib/fib and knee at the same time as you are trying to tip your feet from the ankles.

 

"Passive rotation" the way I am using it here is if you have skied into some counter, and continue to face your upper body and hips towards the direction where the apex of your next turn will be, when you release your edges, your legs and thus your feet and skis will attempt to "unwind" from the tension you have created by skiing into counter. This does not have to be an active turning of the femurs, but just a reaction to having been "twisted" into that position. What's rotating should be the legs from the femurs, and thus the skis under the skier.

 

What's appropriate counter? That depends on intent. medium radius turns that is often just enough to be facing the apex of your next turn. Long radius turns may be similar to almost no counter. Short radius turns or turns in a steep narrow chute, that counter may be around 90 degrees or possibly more.

post #42 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

Was that a serious question?

 

.

 

 

For racing, it of course becomes more a question of strategy and sometimes tactics, so we use more precision instrumentation:

 


.

 

 

 

:rotflmao: 

 

:beercheer: 

Of course it was a serious question. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
 

.

 

Advance this to an advanced wedge christie and there should be an almost simultaneous edge release and edge change earlier in the turn. Then advance this to an open parallel and there will be earlier guiding (or tipping if you will) to create a true simultaneous edge release and edge change. If you have been skiing into appropriate counter (wedge, wedge christie and open parallel), this will also create "passive rotation" as the ski edges release and begin your new turn.

 

.

Folks toss around vague terms like they mean something quantitative.   If we are coaching someone, we need to have a quantitative measure in order to coach effectively.   "Hold your counter later" or " release your counter  sooner"  or "start the counter sooner".   YM

post #43 of 169

I know it was serious ;)

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

Folks toss around vague terms like they mean something quantitative.   If we are coaching someone, we need to have a quantitative measure in order to coach effectively.   "Hold your counter later" or " release your counter  sooner"  or "start the counter sooner".   YM

Thumbs Up

 

Truth is though that how much counter is good depends on the turn to some extent. Some is always better than none and my answer to that "how much is good counter" question would be "more than we're doing now" which is usually the right amount, especially in short turns !

 

A good rule of thumb would be though to face the old outside ski when transition begins. Face the tip of it or the bindings... it depends... but if we're not facing the outside ski, we're certainly not doing enough.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
 

In that Other "system" this action of tipping the ski would create some passive rotary movement and also help start a ski turning into the new turn.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
 
"Passive rotation" the way I am using it here is if you have skied into some counter, and continue to face your upper body and hips towards the direction where the apex of your next turn will be, when you release your edges, your legs and thus your feet and skis will attempt to "unwind" from the tension you have created by skiing into counter. This does not have to be an active turning of the femurs, but just a reaction to having been "twisted" into that position. What's rotating should be the legs from the femurs, and thus the skis under the skier.

 

I don't see the connection to tipping creating rotary...?

 

However - you can let this tension unwind and pivot the skis when flat or hold it until you're on edge with tipping and then it won't pivot the skis anymore, but do other, better things.

 

In the latter red sentence you're assuming long legs and flat skis pivoting... which denotes a certain way of skiing but not the one you referenced...


Edited by razie - 4/18/16 at 4:02pm
post #44 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

Of course it was a serious question. 

Folks toss around vague terms like they mean something quantitative.   If we are coaching someone, we need to have a quantitative measure in order to coach effectively.   "Hold your counter later" or " release your counter  sooner"  or "start the counter sooner".   YM

Agreed here. Just very hard to do in words only without someone in front of you giving you either visual or other feedback to what they are doing.  Yes needs to be quantitative.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Thumbs Up

 

Truth is though that how much counter is good depends on the turn to some extent. Some is always better than none and my answer to that "how much is good counter" question would be "more than you're doing now" which is usually the right amount, especially in short turns !

 

 

 

I don't see the connection to tipping creating rotary...?

 

However - you can let this tension unwind and pivot the skis when flat or hold it until you're on edge with tipping and then it won't pivot the skis anymore, but do other, better things.

 

In the latter red sentence you're assuming long legs and flat skis pivoting... which denotes a certain way of skiing but not the one you referenced...

We agree on how much counter and turn intent. Also some is better than none.

 

The connection of tipping to rotary.  standing on one foot, and try to tip your foot that is in the air,  just by moving the knee to the inside or outside, keeping the foot in the same spot. you will find your foot now pointed either in or out a little.

 

If you put your foot on the ground so there is some friction, and try to turn your foot using the same muscles, you will also find that unless you really try not to allow it,  your foot and/or boot would actually tip on edge. In proper skiing, the two movements are very much interlinked if for no reason than the many parts that are moving are physically connected to each other.

post #45 of 169

RE red lettered sentence, No, I'm talking about just about any good separation of upper and lower body and in most turns. The femurs turn in the hip sockets over a stable upper body. How much and how actively depends on the athlete, flexibility, intent, and as you point out, turn shape/type/size.

post #46 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


What are your relative ski skill set weaknesses? Which lesson assignments cause you the most angst? Any other off season fitness/activity goals that dovetail with skiing?

 

Quoting only because these are the questions I ask myself when thinking about what( how, and why as well ) I want to accomplish in the off season. 

 

For myself, while they don't cause any pain per se, I want to understand the backgrounds of some of our first generation beginning skiers... cultural, educational, physical culture, etc...  We've had a nice influx of West Asian and Chinese guests. I'm very familiar with Japan, but not so much India and China... what are the motivations and cultural drivers? How can I help myself and our staff be more effective with them? 

 

I'm also always down for learning more and exchanging ideas about kids lessons... hope to do CS 1 or possibly 2 next season, but have had some great training and ideas from one of the authors of the kids manual. 

 

Build more private clientele. This year was tough with other hill/ski school responsibilities, but I'll have a nice core for next season after some great sessions this year! 

 

Skiing... Honestly, I had a great year and felt very solid from early January onward. Next season I'll be working toward divisional staff goals. That means a summer of reflection, research, and writing. For now it's back to the gym and on the bike for the usual summer shape up and strength building. There's some volcano skiing goals that I hope to accomplish this spring/early summer as well, and for fun, some sailing thrown in.

 

And last but not least, family time!!! :)

post #47 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
 

The femurs turn in the hip sockets over a stable upper body.

 

This is only true when doing something like this:

 

 

But all joke aside, looking at the image above, as the paddle board turns on water, the entire body would turn to follow it, so "skis turn under a stable body" is only true when pivoting flat skis, i.e. if she would torque and rotate the board leveraging against her body's inertia.

 

When the skis are not flat and are turning because the ski/snow interaction (carving with sidecut, like the board turning in the water because it had a rudder) that's not physically what actually happens! The upper body would follow the skis and turn into the turn, unless we counteract the skis turning.

 

This is why most skiers rotate into turns, because it's the natural thing to do!

 

The upper body appears stable when we turn it away from the direction the skis are being turned by the snow interaction!

 

cheers

post #48 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
 

Agreed here. Just very hard to do in words only without someone in front of you giving you either visual or other feedback to what they are doing.  Yes needs to be quantitative.

 

We agree on how much counter and turn intent. Also some is better than none.

 

The connection of tipping to rotary.  standing on one foot, and try to tip your foot that is in the air,  just by moving the knee to the inside or outside, keeping the foot in the same spot. you will find your foot now pointed either in or out a little.

 

If you put your foot on the ground so there is some friction, and try to turn your foot using the same muscles, you will also find that unless you really try not to allow it,  your foot and/or boot would actually tip on edge. In proper skiing, the two movements are very much interlinked if for no reason than the many parts that are moving are physically connected to each other.

 

Exactly. Tipping is femur rotation in hip sockets. Rotation is a dangerous word. It can mean different things. To me "turning with rotation" refers to the opposite of upper body counter. Rotating into the turn. Rotating the hips out in the turn. This is BTW the most intuitive way for a beginner to turn. Turning the femurs in the hip sockets is a different thing. Some call that "tipping". Confusing? Yes. Complicated? No.

 

The release in a one or two footed release drill is performed by tipping your skis from uphill edges to flat and then onto new edges as you come through apex. This tipping movement is femur rotation and is fuelled by a windup from an anticipated upper body and a ski pole set as an outrigger to turn around.

post #49 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

The upper body appears stable when we turn it away from the direction the skis are being turned by the snow interaction!

 

 

Good one. oops on my wording.. Yes UNDER a stable upper body.

 

We are really not that far apart.. Agreed the primary turning "power" or input can be from the ski/snow interaction in most dynamic skiing. Especially a ski on a high edge angle. This still does not change the movement pattern of the femurs turning in the hip sockets and the fact that you have to do something to allow this to happen. Call it counteracting the skis, turning the femurs in the hip sockets, separation of upper lower body, stable core, etc.. We still have to fire the adductor and abductor muscles to either make this happen or allow this to happen, other wise as you say, the torso and hips will always face the same way as the skis direction of travel.

post #50 of 169
.... under a disciplined upper body. smile.gif. Where's the 'discipline' emoticon? smile.gif
post #51 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Exactly. Tipping is femur rotation in hip sockets. Rotation is a dangerous word. It can mean different things. To me "turning with rotation" refers to the opposite of upper body counter. Rotating into the turn. Rotating the hips out in the turn. This is BTW the most intuitive way for a beginner to turn. Turning the femurs in the hip sockets is a different thing. Some call that "tipping". Confusing? Yes. Complicated? No.

 

The release in a one or two footed release drill is performed by tipping your skis from uphill edges to flat and then onto new edges as you come through apex. This tipping movement is femur rotation and is fuelled by a windup from an anticipated upper body and a ski pole set as an outrigger to turn around.


The hip joints flex/extend/medially rotate/laterally rotate/abduct and adduct.   The blend of those movements to rotate feet with an extended knee/leg  is different than the blend that creates tipping.  And yet both contain some elements of all of those movements.    Rotation is  movement in the transverse plane.  The confusing point is that anatomical movement is defined with the body in anatomical position.  Once the body moves out of anatomical position the same movement is defined the same even though the body has moved out of anatomical position.  Now the planes become aligned along oblique directions.   YM

post #52 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 


The hip joints flex/extend/medially rotate/laterally rotate/abduct and adduct.   The blend of those movements to rotate feet with an extended knee/leg  is different than the blend that creates tipping.  And yet both contain some elements of all of those movements.    Rotation is  movement in the transverse plane.  The confusing point is that anatomical movement is defined with the body in anatomical position.  Once the body moves out of anatomical position the same movement is defined the same even though the body has moved out of anatomical position.  Now the planes become aligned along oblique directions.   YM

 

Some call it femur rotation. Some call it knee pointing. Some call it tipping. The fact is that they are all the same. They will all tip your skis on edge. Note that tipping your skis can also be done by other means. For example by inclination or angulation. And if you are standing in a normal skiing position with both of your knees bent a little and tip your feet in either direction there will not be any problem with one leg being more extended than the other. Usually when you start tipping you do that out of a fairly neutral position.

post #53 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Some call it femur rotation. Some call it knee pointing. Some call it tipping. The fact is that they are all the same. They will all tip your skis on edge. Note that tipping your skis can also be done by other means. For example by inclination or angulation. And if you are standing in a normal skiing position with both of your knees bent a little and tip your feet in either direction there will not be any problem with one leg being more extended than the other. Usually when you start tipping you do that out of a fairly neutral position.


I can also rotate my femurs  and create a pivot, that is, skis flat on the snow, remaining flat on the snow as the ski tips point in another direction.  There is tipping and there is untipping (releasing).  YM

post #54 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

As an instructor/coach and student of the sport there are several questions I am always asking myself.   What are the most important activities for me to practice improvement?    YM


I started this thread looking for input and folks thoughts on this subject.  I am a big fundamentals type of guy.  I'm also a believer in focused and organized practice.  I believe that with organized practice one can progress faster than by approaching skiing improvement  in a more haphazard manner.  I have a friend, a Jet Blue captain, who I work with on his skiing and he works with me on my flying. I would call my friend a level 8 skier.   At coffee today we were talking about things for me to practice while flying and of course we talked about skiing.  I gave a little thought to my approach with my friend.  I remember reading a number of years ago about one of the top skiers on the world cup  skiing several runs per day where in each run he focused on only one of the several things he was working on that season.   When I got home I put together a little training schedule  for Andy and this is what I came up with.

 

Balancing    LTE /BTE  traverses 

                    One ski skiing  

 

Schlopy  exercises  and variations of /outside boot touch strong inside hand etc   (angulation/upper-lower body separation)

 

Foot pull back garland traverses/  boot touch  flexion releases   (fore-aft /flexion -extension  work)

 

RR track traverses and downhill edge traverses  (edging)

 

Straight run  flex inside leg to initiate turn/ straight run and tip inside leg to create turn/ straight run and flex and tip to create turn.

 

My thought is that if my friend  spends one run on each of these exercises he will have a focused plan for improvement.  On a relatively short trail with lift rides included,  this training could be accomplished  in 30 to 40 minutes per day.   The exercises can be modified or changed based on his response and progress.  My thinking is that I have given my friend  several exercises that touch on balancing as well as fundamental  movements  for each of the three planes of motion.  What do you think?  Is there a better way?    YM

post #55 of 169
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
....I started this thread looking for input and folks thoughts on this subject.  I am a big fundamentals type of guy.  I'm also a believer in focused and organized practice.  I believe that with organized practice one can progress faster than by approaching skiing improvement  in a more haphazard manner.  I have a friend, a Jet Blue captain, who I work with on his skiing and he works with me on my flying. I would call my friend a level 8 skier.   At coffee today we were talking about things for me to practice while flying and of course we talked about skiing.  I gave a little thought to my approach with my friend.  I remember reading a number of years ago about one of the top skiers on the world cup  skiing several runs per day where in each run he focused on only one of the several things he was working on that season.   When I got home I put together a little training schedule  for Andy and this is what I came up with.

 

Balancing    LTE /BTE  traverses 

                    One ski skiing  

 

Schlopy  exercises  and variations of /outside boot touch strong inside hand etc   (angulation/upper-lower body separation)

Foot pull back garland traverses/  boot touch  flexion releases   (fore-aft /flexion -extension  work)

RR track traverses and downhill edge traverses  (edging)

Straight run  flex inside leg to initiate turn/ straight run and tip inside leg to create turn/ straight run and flex and tip to create turn.

My thought is that if my friend  spends one run on each of these exercises he will have a focused plan for improvement.  On a relatively short trail with lift rides included,  this training could be accomplished  in 30 to 40 minutes per day.   The exercises can be modified or changed based on his response and progress.  My thinking is that I have given my friend  several exercises that touch on balancing as well as fundamental  movements  for each of the three planes of motion.  What do you think?  Is there a better way?    YM


I like this approach very much.  It's quite similar to what I do for my own personal skiing.  

This approach has produced good results for me.  

Because I started skiing late in life, I've had to do a lot of deliberate practice to build my skills.

However, there is a caveat.

 

What happens on-snow for me, after I decide what to work on during a day, is quirky.  

I'll start a run with the clear intention to pay attention to only one thing (such as one of the things you've listed).

When I get on the chair to ride back up, I realize that I lost my focus and did something else.  

I am training alone, so friends and their priorities do not impact my ability to maintain that focus.  It just happens, for no particular reason.

 

If your friend's focus does not shift before he reaches the bottom of a run, then the program you have described is a great one.  He will improve fast.

 

But I can testify that even if he has issues maintaining a focus on only one thing per run, the intention to do it can still produce results if he takes action to combat that tendency to lose the focus.  

If his focus floats around, he can chant a mantra with his turns (silently, or out loud) to keep the focus stable.  Out loud may be necessary at first, unfortunately.

Realizing he loses focus is the first step.  Choosing to chant the mantra is the second.  Doing it is the third (this can be embarrassing if he needs to do it out loud for it to work).  

Evaluating his performance as he rides back up seals the deal.

 

 

I don't know if maintaining a focus is an issue for others.  I'd be interested in knowing if this is the case.  

I know that my art students in my studio classes forget to apply the new things they are learning.  

They have to be reminded by me, or they need to find strategies (similar to chanting a mantra) that will keep them cognizant of the need to apply new skills as they produce new work.

Choosing to do this battle (and it is a battle)  is their first step.  They often think it should happen "naturally."  That simply doesn't work in most cases.

So I doubt it's only people with attention-deficit disorder who have difficulty replacing old habits with brand new ones.

Thoughts?  

post #56 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

 

 

I don't know if maintaining a focus is an issue for others.  I'd be interested in knowing if this is the case.  

I know that my art students in my studio classes forget to apply the new things they are learning.  

They have to be reminded by me, or they need to find strategies (similar to chanting a mantra) that will keep them cognizant of the need to apply new skills as they produce new work.

Choosing to do this battle (and it is a battle)  is their first step.  They often think it should happen "naturally."  That simply doesn't work in most cases.

So I doubt it's only people with attention-deficit disorder who have difficulty replacing old habits with brand new ones.

Thoughts?  


I actually have a very similar list I use for my self.  They exercises are slightly more specific to what I see as my specific needs.  I do not have any trouble focusing on the intended task as long as I am skiing alone.  Also, most of the exercises I listed for my friend are done in a traverse/garland  and therefor probably harder to get distracted  than if you are working on issues while free skiing in general.  I also like exercises that have some sort of penalty or a way to access quality of performance.  For example, with RR tracks, you can evaluate your  tracks.  With traverses on one ski BTE/LTE you can measure your success by evaluating your tracks and whether you have to put down a second foot to maintain balance.   I believe some exercises have a higher value than others and there are lots of exercises out there.  YM

post #57 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
....I actually have a very similar list I use for my self.  They exercises are slightly more specific to what I see as my specific needs.  I do not have any trouble focusing on the intended task as long as I am skiing alone.  Also, most of the exercises I listed for my friend are done in a traverse/garland  and therefor probably harder to get distracted  than if you are working on issues while free skiing in general.  I also like exercises that have some sort of penalty or a way to access quality of performance.  For example, with RR tracks, you can evaluate your  tracks.  With traverses on one ski BTE/LTE you can measure your success by evaluating your tracks and whether you have to put down a second foot to maintain balance.   I believe some exercises have a higher value than others and there are lots of exercises out there.  YM

 

 

Now that you mention it, one is not likely to get distracted while doing an exercise in a traverse, because the traverse is not like normal free-skiing.

This has been my experience, too.  So you're right about that.

However, at my mountain traverses can be somewhat dangerous, due to incoming traffic.  Our trails can get crowded.  

When doing traverses, one needs to look uphill continuously for racers coming down at mach schnell.

post #58 of 169
LiquidFeet, you have identified an essential element that all really great skiers possess, and that those even a half-rung under that level don't seem to be able to muster, at least not consistently. It's the ability to hone in on the essential component of their skiing that will produce the greatest return, when mastered, and to focus on that, to the exclusion of everything else, until it is mastered. For example, Tina Maze spent several seasons focused on controlling edge angle through foot and ankle movements because her default pattern of hip driven edging held her back in slalom and wasn't that great even in GS. Every run, every training day, that was it, nothing else.

It's very hard to do. Everyone has multiple technical thoughts on their minds when approaching any given run. (Except those who claim to have no thoughts or focus at all and those are the people who ski for decades without discernible progress.) It's difficult to hone in on just one.
post #59 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

 

Now that you mention it, one is not likely to get distracted while doing an exercise in a traverse, because the traverse is not like normal free-skiing.

This has been my experience, too.  So you're right about that.

However, at my mountain traverses can be somewhat dangerous, due to incoming traffic.  Our trails can get crowded.  

When doing traverses, one needs to look uphill continuously for racers coming down at mach schnell.


No doubt,  traverses must be practiced with the utmost caution.  Fortunately, Mid week where I work, it is usually not a problem, esp. on my favorite trail to train on.  YM

post #60 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post

LiquidFeet, you have identified an essential element that all really great skiers possess, and that those even a half-rung under that level don't seem to be able to muster, at least not consistently. It's the ability to hone in on the essential component of their skiing that will produce the greatest return, when mastered
  (Except those who claim to have no thoughts or focus at all and those are the people who ski for decades without discernible progress.) It's difficult to hone in on just one.

That' s always the question I am asking myself.   There are many who have skied for decades and are very good at skiing the way they ski but are not what you would call strong skiers.   YM

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