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# Lange RS 2017 boots - Page 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog    David MacPhail doesn't quite say that but it's interesting how precise a figure he has.
Quote from MacPhail:
"With input from skiers in different parts of the world over the past two years, I have narrowed the ideal ramp angle down to about 2.7 degrees. This seems to be something of a standard in World Cup. Through experiments over the past few months, I have found that changes of 0.1 degrees can make a significant and easily perceivable difference. Optimal ramp angle isn’t just critical for World Cup racers, it is critical for all skiers. The easiest way to convince you of the importance of optimal ramp angle is for you to experience the effects of ramp angle through experimentation. How? With a Stance Ramp set to a base reference angle of 2.5 degrees."   [https://skimoves.me/2016/03/01/ramping-up-the-power-of-your-stance/]

I took a look at MacPhail's blog.  When he says he found that 0.1 degrees of difference are noticeable, he may have gotten himself confused by the math.  He's got a ramped board with a 1.2 cm shim, placed 27.5 cm from where it touches the ground, which he says gives him a starting angle for his experiments of 2.5 degrees.   That's correct.  But then, in the comments, he says "In the ramp in my post 2 mm = 0.1 degree."  Maybe that's a typo, but that's wrong.  An added 2 mm of posting on that ramped board gives an increase in ramp angle of 0.4 degrees.  So what he thinks is a 0.1 degree change is actually a 0.4 degree change.   And what he thinks is 2.7 degrees (from adding a 4 mm post) (what he calls his "ideal ramp angle") is actually 3.3 degrees.*

I measured the zeppa on a Lange ZB; it's within a few tenths of 3 degrees, so I don't doubt many WC skiers are in that range.  It's also what I prefer. But given the wide range of body anatomies among skiers, I'm skeptical of his assertion that all are optimally balanced within such a narrow range.

*arcsin(12/275)=2.5 degrees; arcsin(14/275)=2.9 degrees; arcsin(16/275)=3.3 degrees

Edited by chemist - 5/31/16 at 7:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1

Thank you. I appreciate all this information. But tell me what does 7 millimeter mean? Is it high low, good bad? Where would I start to possibly improve things and hat what does this have to do with the term they use gas pedal. The reason I ask about gas pedaling is I have seen several favorable comments to this process whatever it is. I have also seen favorable comments on changing the high heel or toe of the bindings. I just need to know where to start and how to play.

Levy,

The 7mm means the part of the heel binding your boot rests on is 7mm higher than the part of the toe binding your boot toe rests on. Gas pedaling must mean you raise the toe of the boot in the binding by taking material off the top of the boot's toe protrusion and adding it back on the bottom of the toe protrusion. (shim the bottom and cut the top). Pretty much a permanent change.

I have changed the delta's on a few of my bindings with shims under the toe piece (and longer screws). I am tall, and large, and typically use race skis. Race skis bindings tend to have close to 0 delta. Heel and toe of boot are same height off the ski. I like a zero delta and when it gets large (like 6 mm) I tend to put too much force on the tips of my skis. I would agree that 2mm is the threshold for noticing something is different, so a delta of 1-3 is fine for me and 4 and greater I notice and change it closer to 0.  You are at 7, which is large, so you either are comfortable with it and it works for you, or you have never tried a 0 or realized 0 is better for you. (pretty common not to notice). this comes into play when you up and down weight and go from standing straight up to squatting as low as possible. The delta will effect your balance while moving your body up and down. I am not sure who needs what delta, but 0 feels good to me. I think it was Sinbad who like a much higher number. There are some video's on who to evaluate this which aren't bad for getting you in the ballpark.

Hope this helps.

For me, the way I'm tentatively going to work with ramp angles in boots is to experiment with different boots on different skis, and similarly with cork heal wedges, since they've worked for me for some time.  I ski a lot of days a year, and find such equipment tinkering fun.

In this case, a quiver of boots I have: different boots, different ramps angles I'm trying out on different skis; and using those cork heal wedges until I reach the limits of that, or figure out enough to do it on the bindings or with a boot fitter instead, using what I've learned.
I'd like to trust myself to tell what works and what doesn't - for me, from experience.  I trust I can tell what works better and what works worse -  ski one way, then ski it the other way.
If I were seriously racing, I'd add to the process, maybe.   But, hey, I'm retired.

So far in part I've found by experimenting that it's best to generalize only tentatively, that you have try out each likely combination for yourself.

Nonetheless, for a shorter turning ski, like a slalom ski (~r 12-14) or even a masters gs ski (~r. 19), increasing my ramp angle slightly with a cork heal wedge (putting myself slightly more forward on the inner platform of my boot) in  Lange RS 130 boots can be an improvement.  The ski can feel noticeably quicker, more precise. At least a fun change.

Conversely, for a wider turning ski like a woman's gs ski (~r. 23-30), increasing my ramp angle slightly the same amount, in the same way, in the same boots, can be a detriment.   It can put me slightly at cross purposes to the natural carve and flex of those skis, hurting the feel of the carve and the precision and control I'd normally get.

I've done similar experiments using the slightly softer RS 130 up against the stiffer Lange World Cup Super Comp 140 boots.  The results, for me, are incomplete, but so far seem to point to the stiffer boots, once properly bedded, being better for quicker turning/shorter radius skis and, for now, detrimental for my woman's FIS skis - a surprise to me.

As near as I can tell, the differences are easily noticeable from ski to ski, and hard for me to predict, as yet.  Input from knowledgeable folks can always help.

That's why a chance conversation I had this week with an elite racer about boots was a real bonus.

This past Friday at A Basin I noticed a young male racer at the bottom of the hill changing his boots over and over, from Lange to Head and back.   He had U.S. ski team and U.S. Developmental (or practice?) team clothing on, and skied well.  Very well.

(I found out he was actually on a national U.S. Developmental team, though I suspect that at year end that might mean with added candidates who will have to try out in the fall to make the more select B,C and D teams chosen at Copper Mountain - not sure about all this, or whether he was already on one of those alphabet teams.)

Anyway, he'd make a run on his Fischer WC FIS men's spec GS skis, then he'd switch boots by taking his foot with lace up Lange inner boots out of one outer shell boot and into another.   (The boots were
1) Lange blue race boot outer shells, not sure which model, but seemingly a molded one inside rather than a plug boot; and
2) Head white race boots, again not sure which model but they seemed to be molded inside also).
He was alternating in this way run after run down Lenawee top to bottom.

So I asked him what process he was up to, how many boots he used, and why.

To my surprise, he answered at length, and we had a great conversation.

The gist of it was that, in general, he and racers around him generally used three to four boots at any one time.   Slalom boots needed to be stiffer and with a higher (more forward) ramp angle, gs boots had to be softer, with a lower ramp angle, and downhill boots needed to be canted very precisely for flat running, etc. (for him in particular, as if to make him slightly bowlegged, boots/skis were turned slightly outward with canting).
In his case, he had two different gs boots that I'd seen him using.  He had to experiment with them with each ski change to decide which boot worked better, and what adjustment to make in it, if any.   (He'd already decided he prefered the Lange liners over the Head liners, in both boots.)

This was hands on experimental testing and modifying of equipment, matching ski to boot in different disciplines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs

Levy,

The 7mm means the part of the heel binding your boot rests on is 7mm higher than the part of the toe binding your boot toe rests on. Gas pedaling must mean you raise the toe of the boot in the binding by taking material off the top of the boot's toe protrusion and adding it back on the bottom of the toe protrusion. (shim the bottom and cut the top). Pretty much a permanent change.

I have changed the delta's on a few of my bindings with shims under the toe piece (and longer screws). I am tall, and large, and typically use race skis. Race skis bindings tend to have close to 0 delta. Heel and toe of boot are same height off the ski. I like a zero delta and when it gets large (like 6 mm) I tend to put too much force on the tips of my skis. I would agree that 2mm is the threshold for noticing something is different, so a delta of 1-3 is fine for me and 4 and greater I notice and change it closer to 0.  You are at 7, which is large, so you either are comfortable with it and it works for you, or you have never tried a 0 or realized 0 is better for you. (pretty common not to notice). this comes into play when you up and down weight and go from standing straight up to squatting as low as possible. The delta will effect your balance while moving your body up and down. I am not sure who needs what delta, but 0 feels good to me. I think it was Sinbad who like a much higher number. There are some video's on who to evaluate this which aren't bad for getting you in the ballpark.

Hope this helps.

I don't have a great deal of dorsiflexion.  Boot fitters always stick a wedge onto the boot board under my heel.  Even then I prefer a decent amount of delta.  Most of my bindings are 4-5mm (Tyrolias for the most part).  Look bindings (non-race) used to have a decent amount of delta, although they've been reducing it lately, and their FKS/Pivot bindings are basically flat.

Back in the day getting weight onto your tips ("driving" the ski) was the way to ski.  New shape skis have changed people's perceptions around what is the proper technique.  That's a whole 'nother story though, so let's leave that to the pros on the Instruction and Coaching board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ski otter

interesting, considering Fischer is usually adamant that "their" athletes ski in their boots especially for kids that haven't made the big show yet and therefore have no leverage in gear choice

The liners on my 2017 RS 140's seem a bit more comfortable than the 2016's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evets

The liners on my 2017 RS 140's seem a bit more comfortable than the 2016's.

I have the RS 130 and always wanted to try the 140 Liner. I have severe bunions and I always had to cut the bunion area in the liner and remove some material. Not so with the RS 130 as the material stretches right where my bunions are with no pain. Does the RS 140 do the same? What do you like better about the new liner?

If  anyone is  interested I have for sale brand new liners from Lange RS 140 . I will post pictures in the market section of the forum shortly.

Sent PM

Does anybody know if you can change parts of the sole with screws on the RS 130 WIDE 15/16 model, I just saw in the shop that it is possible on the 16/17 model.

I remember the RS 130s used to be soles in one part, if worn out you couldnt replace sole parts.

I believe I have the 15 16 and they are one piece and cannot be changed which is one of the reasons I like them because it makes him laterally stiff to put Power into the ski
Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1

I believe I have the 15 16 and they are one piece and cannot be changed which is one of the reasons I like them because it makes him laterally stiff to put Power into the ski

Is your Liners Top Part sticking out of the shell all black or white and black?

15/16 is all black. And Ive seen a 15/16 RS 130 Wide model with screws on the bottom.
But its hard to find out if they all have it or not..

And do you have the WIDE model? The regular RS 130 does have one piece for sure.

Just trying to find out if changable soles is new to the 16/17 RS 130 WIDE or was there already last season.

I just talked to a ski shop and he said 16 and 17 or solid bottom are you sure you're not talking about the rx130

yes definitley. I had the RS 130 WIDE in hand.

Just the WIDE version has is tho i guess.

Mine is not wide but hard to believe it wood make a difference
The RS140 Wide and RS130 Wide have the removable/replaceable sole plates. The 97mm RS boots have the solid sole without the replaceable plates. The two lasts have been this way for years. Have never heard a logical explanation.

Most shops would like to see 97mm set up the same way, as they could use Cantology strips in fitting, or so I am told, by a few guys. One reason I'm in the green boot.

First thing my daughter did to her 97mm RS was to add a set of DIN compatable Vibram lifters...after the sole has been planed for her canting. No Cat Tracks needed, no sliding, great for boot packing. Boot skiing days left behind with her ZA's.
Edited by Muleski - 12/7/16 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski

The RS140 Wide and RS130 Wide have the removable/replaceable sole plates. The 97mm RS boots have the solid sole without the replaceable plates. The two lasts have been this way for years. Have never heard a logical explanation.

Most shops would like to see 97mm set up the same way, as they could use Cantology strips in fitting, or so I am told, by a few guys. One reason I'm in the green boot.

First thing my daughter did to her 97mm RS was to add a set of DIN compatable Vibram lifters...after the sole has been planed for her chanting. No Cat Tracks needed, no sliding, great for boot packing. Boot skiing days left behind with her ZA's.
I had those once from PJ. Great for walking esp after those lifters everyone had that were incredibly slippery. Then I went to get a new set, left the boots, came back and no vibrams. Didn't have them anymore ever. C'est la pj.
Just noted my typo....perfect for her CANTING, as well as her "chanting!" HaHa.

The Vibram lifters are not easy to find. Hers came in the back door through some industry buddy.
Odd; I have RS130 wide's, pretty certain they have same sole as the 98 mm last. Will check tomorrow.
Muleski usually doesn't miss it!
I'm stuck with just my phone for a day, so I can't grab any images from Google and post here. Just took a look for kicks. There are a few images of the RS130, and of the RS130 Wide. Shows the Wide with the sole plates screwed in place, and the 97mm "regular" RS-130 with the full solid sole. It does have the small starter holes in the sole of you want to add a set of solid lifter plates. My daughter is in a RS130. Brother is in the wide. I'm in a RX130. Brother swapped out his stock sole plates to a set identical to mine. I don't think the design has changed. These are 2013 and 2014 boots.
It's pretty confusing. Add to it the fact that the 130 and 140 are the same shell, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski

The RS140 Wide and RS130 Wide have the removable/replaceable sole plates. The 97mm RS boots have the solid sole without the replaceable plates. The two lasts have been this way for years. Have never heard a logical explanation.

Most shops would like to see 97mm set up the same way, as they could use Cantology strips in fitting, or so I am told, by a few guys. One reason I'm in the green boot.

First thing my daughter did to her 97mm RS was to add a set of DIN compatable Vibram lifters...after the sole has been planed for her canting. No Cat Tracks needed, no sliding, great for boot packing. Boot skiing days left behind with her ZA's.

Solid soled boots are more rigid torsionally laterally than boots with replaceable soles. They are also more expensive to manufacture. A solid sole also allows for more possibilities for modification.

It is quite easy to put a high traction lifter on the boots to protect any canting and make the boot more versatile. The boot shown has Head Vibram soles installed.
jl

Yep. I have adult kids, working in the ski biz who all have that EXACT set of plates mounted on solid sole boots. One Lange, one Head, one Doberman. The Lange is a RS130. And some spare plates are being held aside, "in case." Wasn't that sole plate originally made for the Head Overkill?

Agree 100% with BOOTech, ^^^^. Not suggesting that the RX and "ultra grip" solution is any more than a good solution for some folks, and the Cantology solution is a decent one for many...time, cost, etc. As good or precise as doing accurate sole work on a solid boot sole? Probably not.

It's worked for me, transitioning out of a long series of plug boots {going back to when they were first made}.
And my original point, the Lange lineup can be a bit confusing. Guess that will get cleaned up with the next roll out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOTech,Inc.

With Rossignol no longer branding Look bindings for their skis, will the same follow for Lange boots?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski

Yep. I have adult kids, working in the ski biz who all have that EXACT set of plates mounted on solid sole boots. One Lange, one Head, one Doberman. The Lange is a RS130. And some spare plates are being held aside, "in case." Wasn't that sole plate originally made for the Head Overkill? /quote]

Yes, this is the sole from the Raptor Overkill. They work well other than being expensive and wearing out rapidly if exposed to large doses of concrete.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XLTL

With Rossignol no longer branding Look bindings for their skis, will the same follow for Lange boots?

No, not all likely.

jl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski

I'm stuck with just my phone for a day, so I can't grab any images from Google and post here. Just took a look for kicks. There are a few images of the RS130, and of the RS130 Wide. Shows the Wide with the sole plates screwed in place, and the 97mm "regular" RS-130 with the full solid sole. It does have the small starter holes in the sole of you want to add a set of solid lifter plates. My daughter is in a RS130. Brother is in the wide. I'm in a RX130. Brother swapped out his stock sole plates to a set identical to mine. I don't think the design has changed. These are 2013 and 2014 boots.
It's pretty confusing. Add to it the fact that the 130 and 140 are the same shell, etc.

I have the RS130 Wides (from 2014 I think - the model before the cam-lock power strap was introduced) and they certainly have screw-in, replaceable sole plates.

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