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MA please.

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

About a month ago I started the thread - MA from still pictures.  http://www.epicski.com/t/146219/ma-from-still-pictures

 

The feedback made me a lot more aware of what incremental improvements I need to make, and more specific things to ask the coaches for.

 

The changes I tried to make to my skiing were:

1)  tipping the inside leg.  Need to "unlearn" old moves, sometimes going back to old habit, but I know how it should feel when it's done right.

2)  initiate from LTE of outside leg.  My move used to be a hip recenter with core strength.  The end result was that sometimes I get in the back seat.  When I initiate from ball of feet of LTE of outside leg, it's really hard to be in the back seat.

3)  more aware of my arm movements.

 

This video was taken about 2 weeks ago, after having some time to do drills on the three above.

 

 

Self critique:

1)  Still some A-frame, but it looked better. 

2)  Left turn looks different from right.  Right turns still weaker since I am not as good as managing pressure with my left leg / left side angulation.

3)  Arm movements were a lot better... but still excessive?

 

I still have maybe 2 more weeks to drill... then the season sadly shuts down...

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback.  Please tell it to me straight the way it is, it's the only way for me to get better.

post #2 of 24

Nice focus, improvements and arm progress.

 

Sequentially speaking, I might recommend working on improving your balance on the outside ski before working on inside tipping that of which is better developed with a more refined sense of balance on the outside ski. Based on what I am seeing, balance,both  lateral and fore/aft, is where I would put most or all of the emphasis, the results of which, will reduce the effort required for all other fundamental skill improvements necessary and therefore should be priority of the highest order. Just like the benefits of the sensory concentration achieved with pole confiscation, the confiscation of one ski will concentrate your efforts at balance towards the feet and ankles rather than, as at present, spread throughput the entire upper body. Inside tipping is not considered as one of the core fundamental skills is another way to identify it and similar level movements as less relevant in the current scale of priorities.

 

If you can learn to carve turns on inline skates at as much as a 30 degree asphalt incline with steady balance over the offseason you will stomp most of your balance improvement goals before the start of next season. This is an activity that has an internal mechanism for an immediate and highly recognizable provision of balance performance feedback that keeps on giving for days beyond that of the facilitation of such feedback.  (ouch!)   :) 

post #3 of 24
I'd close the stance somewhat. You are getting an inside ski divergence instead of an engaged little toe edge.
post #4 of 24

Galun,

You are on the road to improvement.  Congrats.  How much season do you have left?

The improvements I'd suggest depend on ankle tipping.  So I have some questions for you.

 

Can you ski straight down the fall line on an easy pitch and simply tip the ankles left-right without doing anything else?

If yes, how do your skis behave when you simply ankle-tip them?

What else do you have to do to stay balanced?
What do you do when you gain speed?


Edited by LiquidFeet - 4/8/16 at 4:40pm
post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Galun,

You are on the road to improvement.  Congrats.  How much season do you have left?

The improvements I'd suggest depend on ankle tipping.  So I have some questions for you.

 

Can you ski straight down the fall line on an easy pitch and simply tip the ankles left-right without doing anything else?

IF yes, how do your skis behave when you simply ankle-tip them?

What else do you have to do to stay balanced?
What do you do when you gain speed?

 

Probably 2 - 3 weekends of skiing left.  But most likely there won't be any more gates, since all the races are pretty much over.

 

The exercise you described sounded like the training for flushes in slalom, which had been another thing I had been working on.  When I tip my ankles, the sidecut turns the ski.  To stay balanced, I need to "move" forward and laterally to put shin pressure over the outside ski.  When I gain speed, things fall apart because I cannot tip my ankles quick enough.

 

I had been given the drill to ski on one ski on flat terrain, using ankle tipping only.  A couple turns on right leg, switch to a couple turns on left leg, switch back, repeat.  I am getting better on the right leg, still not so good on the left leg.

 

I think I still have too much upper body initiation to turn.  Had been trying to move it down to initiate from the ankles.

post #6 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

 

Sequentially speaking, I might recommend working on improving your balance on the outside ski before working on inside tipping that of which is better developed with a more refined sense of balance on the outside ski. Based on what I am seeing, balance,both  lateral and fore/aft, is where I would put most or all of the emphasis, the results of which, will reduce the effort required for all other fundamental skill improvements necessary and therefore should be priority of the highest order. 

 

The drills to train balance on the outside ski would be javelin and skiing on one ski?  What others do you recommend?

 

In the past off season I did pick up inline skating, and it certainly helped so far this season.  I plan to continue with the in line skating this off season.

post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galun View Post
....

Probably 2 - 3 weekends of skiing left.  But most likely there won't be any more gates, since all the races are pretty much over.

 

The exercise you described sounded like the training for flushes in slalom, which had been another thing I had been working on.  When I tip my ankles, the sidecut turns the ski.  To stay balanced, I need to "move" forward and laterally to put shin pressure over the outside ski.  When I gain speed, things fall apart because I cannot tip my ankles quick enough.

 

I had been given the drill to ski on one ski on flat terrain, using ankle tipping only.  A couple turns on right leg, switch to a couple turns on left leg, switch back, repeat.  I am getting better on the right leg, still not so good on the left leg.

 

I think I still have too much upper body initiation to turn.  Had been trying to move it down to initiate from the ankles.

 

Work on ankle-tipping for little turns down the fall line as in a flush.  Do both ankles together, same timing, same speed, same angles.  

Work on speeding up the ankle tipping.  You can skip the pole planting if that helps you get the ankles tipping faster.  How fast can you tip them?  

For every run you make, practice speeding up the ankle action at the bottom of the run where the pitch flattens.  

You can get the wrist-flicking pole action to work later on.

 

Then work on this progression:  

     -start with a straight run on easy pitch terrain where there is no crowd traffic

     -ankle-tip to make those the fall-line flush-type turns

     -then add LIFTING your inside knee higher, HIGHER.  

     -The general idea:  keep the ankle tipping going, but add the knee lifting (flexing) to it.  

     -don't do anything else.  You'll get wider turns when you lift that inside knee.

 

Work on doing this and lifting that knee higher and higher (up to your chest!).

Work on moving smoothly from flush turns to short turns to medium to long turns.

 

Next work on speeding up the ankle-tipping, and speeding up the knee lifting.  

That ought to keep you productively busy for the next two weeks.  

 

This is not to say that initiating all turns should happen this way, but it's something that you need to have in your tool box.  It has its advantages.

If you start your turns with ankle-tipping and add knee-lifting, your inside ski won't be flatter than the outside ski (because the ankle will be tipping).

You can shorten the turns if you work on tipping faster, and knee-lifting faster.  The skis will hold; the unwanted skidding that is evident in the video will disappear.

The upper body will not be involved in initiating these turns.  And your stance won't be widening as it does in that video.  

Working on these things without gates is optimal.  Gates would only interrupt your focus on feeling your balance and embedding the skills.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 4/8/16 at 5:05pm
post #8 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Work on ankle-tipping for little turns down the fall line as in a flush.  Do both ankles together, same timing, same speed, same angles.  
Work on speeding up the ankle tipping.  You can skip the pole planting if that helps you get the ankles tipping faster.  How fast can you tip them?  
For every run you make, practice speeding up the ankle action at the bottom of the run where the pitch flattens.  
You can get the wrist-flicking pole action to work later on.

Then work on this progression:  
     -start with a straight run on easy pitch terrain where there is no crowd traffic
     -ankle-tip to make those the fall-line flush-type turns
     -then add LIFTING your inside knee higher, HIGHER.  
     -The general idea:  keep the ankle tipping going, but add the knee lifting (flexing) to it.  
     -don't do anything else.  You'll get wider turns when you lift that inside knee.

Work on doing this and lifting that knee higher and higher (up to your chest!).
Work on moving smoothly from flush turns to short turns to medium to long turns.

Next work on speeding up the ankle-tipping, and speeding up the knee lifting.  
That ought to keep you productively busy for the next two weeks.  

This is not to say that initiating all turns should happen this way, but it's something that you need to have in your tool box.  It has its advantages.
If you start your turns with ankle-tipping and add knee-lifting, your inside ski won't be flatter than the outside ski (because the ankle will be tipping).
You can shorten the turns if you work on tipping faster, and knee-lifting faster.  The skis will hold; the unwanted skidding that is evident in the video will disappear.
The upper body will not be involved in initiating these turns.  And your stance won't be widening as it does in that video.  
Working on these things without gates is optimal.  Gates would only interrupt your focus on feeling your balance and embedding the skills.

Not tipping very fast yet. Any ideas on how to train for that quick ankle movement?

On the drill itself, I assume I am lifting my inside knee off the snow and carve on the tipped outside ski?
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galun View Post
....
Not tipping very fast yet. Any ideas on how to train for that quick ankle movement?
On the drill itself, I assume I am lifting my inside knee off the snow and carve on the tipped outside ski?


Keep trying; trial and error will do it.  Just ankles, nothing else.  Ditch the pole plants for speed.  

If you are moving your hip over, or even thinking of your hip, stop that.  Do nothing with the hip.

Ankle-tipping is a small range-of-motion thing.  Not much happens above the ankles.  Since nothing

big is moving, you should be able to tip left-right with the ankles fast.  

 

Focus on keeping yourself going straight down the hill as you ankle-tip.  Do not try to turn.  All you're after is ankle tipping.

Face downhill with your body and stare at a target down there to which you are heading.

Stay in an extremely narrow corridor no wider than your pole, or even narrower, as you tip left, right, left, right.

 

The knee lifting is just the knee, not the ski.  You are lifting the knee up while keeping the ski on the snow.

Another way of describing it:  flex the knee.  Both skis stay on snow.

My cue is lifting; maybe yours will be "flex the inside knee until it is close to your chest."  Or "bend the inside knee."

The knee flexing of your inside knee increases the edge angles on both skis.

The other leg should be long.  Think:  long leg, short leg.  But the action focus is on shortening the inside leg without shortening the outside leg.

 

Keep your upper body vertical as much as you can as you do this knee flexing.

 

There's more, but you need to get out there and try this first.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 4/8/16 at 6:20pm
post #10 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post


Keep trying; trial and error will do it.  Just ankles, nothing else.  Ditch the pole plants for speed.  
If you are moving your hip over, or even thinking of your hip, stop that.  Do nothing with the hip.
Ankle-tipping is a small range-of-motion thing.  Not much happens above the ankles.  Since nothing
big is moving, you should be able to tip left-right with the ankles fast.  

Focus on keeping yourself going straight down the hill as you ankle-tip.  Do not try to turn.  All you're after is ankle tipping.
Face downhill with your body and stare at a target down there to which you are heading.
Stay in an extremely narrow corridor no wider than your pole, or even narrower, as you tip left, right, left, right.

The knee lifting is just the knee, not the ski.  You are lifting the knee up while keeping the ski on the snow.
Another way of describing it:  flex the knee.  Both skis stay on snow.
My cue is lifting; maybe yours will be "flex the inside knee until it is close to your chest."  Or "bend the inside knee."
The knee flexing of your inside knee increases the edge angles on both skis.
The other leg should be long.  Think:  long leg, short leg.  But the action focus is on shortening the inside leg without shortening the outside leg.
 
Keep your upper body vertical as much as you can as you do this knee flexing.

There's more, but you need to get out there and try this first.

Ok. Bending the knee makes sense. One drill I do is to push my inside knee down with my hands while I put pressure on the ball of the outside foot. It seems pretty similar to what you are saying?

I didn't think about "knee lifting". I can see how that will make the knee bend more and increase edge angle. My move is to try to "open up" and drop my inside knee. humm, pulling the knee up. I will try that out!
post #11 of 24

Hi Galun, i don't participate in MA threads very often, but I liked your first post where you explain your goals so here is what I think. First , congratulations for what you have achieved so far. Second - presenting a video of you skiing between gates for MA is not a very good idea. ( sorry if I sound a little harsh) The place for mastering the movements that you point in your first post is away from the gates. Now, I like it that you have as a goal to master the "tipping of the inside leg" and unlearn some " old moves " , but know that tipping without enough flexing and counteracting is useless. There is a specific teaching system that specializes in tipping and it might be useful if you have a look at the drills and the progression suggested by that system .What is missing in your skiing IMO is enough counteracting that comes from the hip combined with tipping of a flexed lower body . See 0.06 for example : you are leaning and rotating , your inside arm is very low ,your stance is too wide , your inside leg is not flexed enough and your outside led is not naturally extended with the inside of it!s knee touching the inside of the inside boot. As a whole the tipping of your lower body is very minimal. So IMO you will need (by the end of the season) to find drills that will help you to develop a very strong hip counteracting combined with a more radical tipping of the lower body and flexing. Sorry if I was a little harsh on your skiing and if you think that what I said does not concern your skiing , just ignore it.

post #12 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
 

Hi Galun, i don't participate in MA threads very often, but I liked your first post where you explain your goals so here is what I think. First , congratulations for what you have achieved so far. Second - presenting a video of you skiing between gates for MA is not a very good idea. ( sorry if I sound a little harsh) The place for mastering the movements that you point in your first post is away from the gates. Now, I like it that you have as a goal to master the "tipping of the inside leg" and unlearn some " old moves " , but know that tipping without enough flexing and counteracting is useless. There is a specific teaching system that specializes in tipping and it might be useful if you have a look at the drills and the progression suggested by that system .What is missing in your skiing IMO is enough counteracting that comes from the hip combined with tipping of a flexed lower body . See 0.06 for example : you are leaning and rotating , your inside arm is very low ,your stance is too wide , your inside leg is not flexed enough and your outside led is not naturally extended with the inside of it!s knee touching the inside of the inside boot. As a whole the tipping of your lower body is very minimal. So IMO you will need (by the end of the season) to find drills that will help you to develop a very strong hip counteracting combined with a more radical tipping of the lower body and flexing. Sorry if I was a little harsh on your skiing and if you think that what I said does not concern your skiing , just ignore it.

 

Not at all harsh, it is me who should thank you and everyone else for taking the time to provide criticism and feedback.

 

I know video in the gates is not ideal.  I had been told that my free skiing looks much better but I don't have video.  But in the gates I show my old habits and flaws, so probably good for picking out things to fix and improve.

 

The feedback on the turn at 0:06 was spot on.  I know my right turns look very different (worse) than my left turns.  I just do better when my right leg is the outside leg.  Absolutely, leaning and rotating, leading to non clean edge, tail slide out.  Not fast.  Here's a video of a left turn.  I know it's better than my right turn but still not great.  Thoughts?

 

 

I don't really know what to think of "the other system".  I am not technically proficient to know the difference among the systems anyways. But intuitively, I know that I currently still use upper body rotation when I am in the gates.  I know the feeling of not getting clean edge, big difference from my free skiing.  In free skiing, without gates, I have plenty to time to focus on initiating from the ankles.  Everything just feels much better.  And the idea of starting the kinetic chain from the ankles instead of the upper body makes sense to me.  So that's what I am working toward.  

post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galun View Post

. But intuitively, I know that I currently still use upper body rotation when I am in the gates.  I know the feeling of not getting clean edge, big difference from my free skiing.  In free skiing, without gates, I have plenty to time to focus on initiating from the ankles.  Everything just feels much better.  And the idea of starting the kinetic chain from the ankles instead of the upper body makes sense to me.  So that's what I am working toward.  

If you KNOW this, you probably should stay out of the gates and spend more time skiing where you can "focus on initiating from the ankles." I'd do this on non-challenging terrain and work on getting faster and faster in the movements before taking it to more and more challenging terrain and THEN the gates.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


If you KNOW this, you probably should stay out of the gates and spend more time skiing where you can "focus on initiating from the ankles." I'd do this on non-challenging terrain and work on getting faster and faster in the movements before taking it to more and more challenging terrain and THEN the gates.

 

Of course the point you make for any individual in the same spot is a good one. I'll take it a step further and suggest stubbies well before gates. Great for containing movement to the feet but only after certain fundamentals can be established through drills. Just make sure not to kick a gift horse in the mouth. Club league racing has long been a producer of ski school customers for whom almost no number of lessons could erase all the compensatory movements ingrained in the gates that are not founded from a sound base of fundamental skills. Of course, whether they make it to a good instructor or coach before too much ingrainment is a matter of significance.

post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galun View Post
.....
Not tipping very fast yet. Any ideas on how to train for that quick ankle movement?
.....

 

@Galun, how's it going with the ankle tipping alone?

post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
HI LiquidFeet,

Yesterday was a miracle april pow day, dumping throughout the day:). So didn't train much. Did a few ankle tipinng flush exercise on the flats at first, but hard to do in pow.

Today I tried the exercise in groomed return runs. Posting now from chair lift.

Knee lifting initiation felt strange, but to be expected. I had to counter laterally to maintain balance and pressure on outside ski. Focused on angulating to achieve that.

Then I tried initiating on LTE of new outside leg at transition, then LIFTING the inside knee to the chest to make the short inside leg. My old move was bend knee and push down / toward the inside. I find that it's much easier to maintain clean pressure on outside leg. I hope it's not just great snow condition with good grip.

EDIT - another run. Yes, turns are wider. Also, change in my focus- instead of dropping, I now move sideways toward the outside, and let the pulling / shortening inside leg plus gravity just getting me down. I find that I can focus on the outside edge more, maintaining a clean edge. Is this what people say "let the edge angle develop"?

To take it further, do I adjust the pull on the inside knee to adjust turning radius? Like throttle steering in cars?

On gates - yeah I know, but that gives me the adrenaline rush, and I don't have the luxury like my kids to build fundamentals from a young age. It also gives me motivation to drill during free ski. I am pretty sure the improvement in fundamentals is going toward the gates, not the other way around.
Edited by Galun - 4/10/16 at 10:44am
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galun View Post

HI LiquidFeet,

Yesterday was a miracle april pow day, dumping throughout the day:). So didn't train much. Did a few ankle tipinng flush exercise on the flats at first, but hard to do in pow.

Today I tried the exercise in groomed return runs. Posting now from chair lift.

Knee lifting initiation felt strange, but to be expected. I had to counter laterally to maintain balance and pressure on outside ski. Focused on angulating to achieve that. Yep, that ends up coming naturally when you start your turns from the ankles up.

Then I tried initiating on LTE of new outside leg at transition, then LIFTING the inside knee to the chest to make the short inside leg. My old move was bend knee and push down / toward the inside. I think of this as knee-flop.  As in, flop that inside knee over.  It works.  I find that it's much easier to maintain clean pressure on outside leg. I hope it's not just great snow condition with good grip.  Try it on ice; then you'll know.

EDIT - another run. Yes, turns are wider. Also, change in my focus- instead of dropping, I now move sideways toward the outside, and let the pulling / shortening inside leg plus gravity just getting me down.  There you go.  Good.  I find that I can focus on the outside edge more, maintaining a clean edge. Is this what people say "let the edge angle develop"?  Yes.

To take it further, do I adjust the pull on the inside knee to adjust turning radius? Like throttle steering in cars? Yes.  You've probably figured this out today.

On gates - yeah I know, but that gives me the adrenaline rush, and I don't have the luxury like my kids to build fundamentals from a young age. It also gives me motivation to drill during free ski. I am pretty sure the improvement in fundamentals is going toward the gates, not the other way around.  Develop the feel for the turns outside the gates.  Work on fast, slow, short, medium, and long outside the gates.  Work on edge-locked carves and brushed carves outside the gates.  Do this on flat, moderate, and steep terrain outside the gates. In the gates, work on seeing and choosing your line, and in fulfilling that plan as cleanly as possible using what you learned outside the gates.

 

Full disclosure:

There are several race coaches who post here regularly.  I am not a race coach, but I've raced.  

post #18 of 24
Before looking at your tactics, you should work on your basic technique, and while there are some very interesting things going on in your skiing... I think this is the best comment on your skiing, from the other thread:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by slider View Post

It looks like he's trying to get big angles without developing them correctly from the start. So your not really balanced. IMHO.
 

A GS ski is hard to turn without being committed forward and on edge. You do put the outside ski on edge, but then you just ride on the inside ski, with little to no pressure on the outside ski.

 

What skis are you on? They seem too turny. Train long turns on long radius skis, 18 and up. If your skis are too short/soft/turny, you'll constantly have to back off of them.

 

If you're on SL skis by any chance, that would explain a lot... otherwise read below.

 

A simple way to look at it is to look at the sequence of frames in http://www.epicski.com/t/146219/ma-from-still-pictures#post_1986394 in the other thread: your upper body basically falls into the turn and you use the inside ski to catch yourself, hence the missing pressure on the outside ski and wide stance and A-frame and whatever else.

 

And while you should certainly continue to work on your tipping and inside foot discipline, I would address lacking upper body discipline (or basic separation) and you need to fix it outside of gates:

- get on short turny skis and gentle slopes

- narrow your stance and learn balance on the outside ski only

- work on separating the upper body from the lower body: separation, angulation, counterbalancing and counteraction

 

I think you have very good natural balance, which allows you to just charge all over the place... and that should help you improve quickly.

 

I like the second video above - how much time have you spent in GS gates, ever? Are those SL skis?

 

It would certainly help a lot to look at a free ski video.


Edited by razie - 4/11/16 at 8:40am
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 

Thanks to all for the feedback.

 

LF - I am finding a lot more control in turn radius with pulling the inside feet vs. "flopping down" like you said.  It's hard to control how much to flop and drop, and when I drop I lose clean outside ski pressure.  I find it much easier to manage how much to pull.

 

Razie - those are rossi master 18m skis.  The course set was much wider radius, on that day it was setup as SG for U14/16 kids I believe.  This is my second season training in the gates.  One of my current focus till the end of the season will be javelins and one leg ski.

 

I will try to get a free ski video.  I have some but they won't represent the improvements I have made over the past two weeks.

post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galun View Post
 

Razie - those are rossi master 18m skis.  The course set was much wider radius, on that day it was setup as SG for U14/16 kids I believe.  This is my second season training in the gates.  One of my current focus till the end of the season will be javelins and one leg ski.

 

I will try to get a free ski video.  I have some but they won't represent the improvements I have made over the past two weeks.

 

Interesting. I did not try that ski, but I think I already like that ski then, just by looking at how it reacts for you...

 

Sneak in some of these drills as well, in your practice:

 

- picture frame

- hands on hips

- drag both poles on snow

- drag the outside pole

- touch the outside boot

 

Balancing on the one ski is part of it. Then you'll have to use it, as in making it do things and that's the result of other movements as you're balancing on it.

 

good luck.

post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

Interesting. I did not try that ski, but I think I already like that ski then, just by looking at how it reacts for you...

 

 

I tried it on a demo day. I was quite disappointed how it performed compared to a real race ski.

post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

I tried it on a demo day. I was quite disappointed how it performed compared to a real race ski.

 

What are the specs for such a ski?

post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

What are the specs for such a ski?

 

I would tend to think that anyone fresh off of a true race ski with the technique and athleticism to warrant its use is going to find a lesser ski exactly that ... a lesser ski.

 

tdk, as a big guy like me, you might be interested in the unusual specs of a 185cm ski with a 14r on a high performance platform of 2 full sheets of titanium above and below a wood core vertical sidewall sandwich construction. Lusti PCT  It has to be special ordered but the cost is under 1000 bucks with a Vista 14 binding. Someone who is currently teaching may get it for cheaper than that.

post #24 of 24

I think it would be this one: http://www.rossignol.com/CG/CA/hero-master-r21-wc--2015--RAEDB01--product--home-alpine.html

 

I'm not particularly big and whenever I have athletic tendencies, my lower back requires Tylenol for the 2 days following the "athletic" episode... :( 

 

Having said that, I do enjoy some true masters GS 183/190cm and 25/26m radius from Head and Fischer. Recently I got a lower master's Fischer RC 18m which is nice... fairly solid underfoot but not as "performing" in bigger radius sets - I figure that's what Jamt means, that you can overski it easily... the problem is that at my hill, an average set is 20-23m with a fair bit of offset to suit all those 17-18m skis that show up, so not "relaxing" for the skis I like... although that's just how long you can stay on the right line :eek 

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