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Ski Gear on the WC - final brand ranking for 2016 season . - Page 2  

post #31 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
 

Nothing surprising this year looking at the final brand ranking, which is actually almost a mirror of the 2015 and 2014 seasons. Head smashes the competition again and this time with a really big margin :

OverAll

 

 

Ladies

Rank Brand Points
1 Head 4240.00
2 Rossignol 2895.00
3 Voelkl 2390.00
4 Atomic 1940.00
5 Dynastar 1010.00
6 Salomon 995.00
7 Stoeckli 945.00
8 Fischer 725.00

Ladies and Men

Rank Brand Points
1 Head 9870.00
2 Atomic 5480.00
3 Rossignol 5235.00
4 Voelkl 2765.00
5 Fischer 2435.00
6 Salomon 2175.00
7 Nordica 1670.00
8 Stoeckli 1105.00
9 Dynastar 1010.00
10 Elan 100.00
11 Blizzard 40.00

Men

Rank Brand Points
1 Head 5630.00
2 Atomic 3540.00
3 Rossignol 2340.00
4 Fischer 1710.00
5 Nordica 1670.00
6 Salomon 1180.00
7 Voelkl 375.00
8 Stoeckli 160.00
9 Elan 100.00
10 Blizzard 40.00

 

And they have all this discouraging for the other brands advantage in points without even having some of the best WC athletes in their  team. Marcel Hirscher , Henrik Kristoffersen, Aleksander Aamodt  Kilde,Eva-Maria Brem, Victoria Rebensburg ,Peter Fill,  Frida Hansdotter,come to mind. All these 2016 winners who have won thousands of  WC points don't even play for Head. What surprises me however is that also in 2016 Head was unable to produce a winning combination of slalom skis and boots for its athletes. Of course, the same goes for some other brands , Atomic in particular that ' owns' the best skier in the world Marcel Hirscher who was left to struggle with the inadequate Atomic boots set ups and the inadequately stiff and difficult to ski Atomic skis that were completely useless when the  races happened to be on  softer surfaces  and that were only partially good on injected ice. Only the out of this world talent kept Hirscher on the top for the overall , despite Atomic and despite all the useless efforts from reps and coaches. (His father is the only one he needs to listen to) Back to the other brands - honorable mention to Rossignol ,  its softer oriented skis and boots were a perfect match to Henric Kristoffersen's anatomy and helped his slalom talent to flourish. Does the WC brand ranking has anything to do with Mr Joe and Mrs Jean the free skiers and  do they need to be influenced by  this ranking in their equipment choices ? Yes ! The answer is yes ! Think !


What would perhaps be more telling is another column in those tables relating to the size of the company, perhaps number of skis sold.  It seems to me (without data to back up my impression) that companies like Nordica and Stoeckli (and maybe Fischer)  are doing quite well relative to the amount of $$$$ they have to invest in athletes.

 

PS. If I got out to a bigger mountain more often, I would certainly own and enjoy a 35 m GS race ski.

post #32 of 59
This ranking is somewhat misleading. We should compare the relative scores. There are far more skiers skiing on Head's than Stockli for instance. A true ranking should take that factor into account. My guess is that Atomic would be number one on that list.
post #33 of 59
Head skis are vastly overrated.
post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
If you think you could bend a ski made for Bode or Lindsey you must have missed your true calling.

That's not entirely true though. I'm feeling perfectly fine on real race skis... they are not Bode or Lindsey's, but they are still from someone, who finishes regularily in top 10 on WC. So yes, "hobby" skier can easily ski real WC stock ski. But then again, I might not totally qualify as hobby skier :)

 

Um, Ya!

Someone who makes a living schlepping a bag full of cameras up and down the Streif may not be exactly comparable to most folks on Epic.

The 2006, 21m Atomics in my pic are from a female USST member and are as close as I need to get to real WC skis.

Professional level race skis are made to work at edge angles from 45 to 60 degrees on injected ice.

There aren't many people on Epic that can get those angles let alone on a rock hard surface.

My 21 m skis work just great if I am really centered and get them way out there before I try to hook them up,

And they skid around just fine.

But ski them for fun...only when my brain is in 18 yo mode and my body doesn't hurt too much!

post #35 of 59

So much talk of trolling, now I have to go fishing. Thread locked.

post #36 of 59

Mod note:

 

After general clean-up and editing, this thread has been unlocked.

 

(Apologies to those whose otherwise unexceptionable comments disappeared in order to preserve thread flow.)

 

Please feel free to discuss (and argue) the issues, but do not sink to name-calling and personal insults. If an idea is faulty, you can prove it wrong, civilly, through data and analysis. If you can't do that, let it go. 

 

Thanks.

 

Lakespapa

post #37 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
If you think you could bend a ski made for Bode or Lindsey you must have missed your true calling.

That's not entirely true though. I'm feeling perfectly fine on real race skis... they are not Bode or Lindsey's, but they are still from someone, who finishes regularily in top 10 on WC. So yes, "hobby" skier can easily ski real WC stock ski. But then again, I might not totally qualify as hobby skier :)

 

Um, Ya!

Someone who makes a living schlepping a bag full of cameras up and down the Streif may not be exactly comparable to most folks on Epic.

The 2006, 21m Atomics in my pic are from a female USST member and are as close as I need to get to real WC skis.

Professional level race skis are made to work at edge angles from 45 to 60 degrees on injected ice.

There aren't many people on Epic that can get those angles let alone on a rock hard surface.

My 21 m skis work just great if I am really centered and get them way out there before I try to hook them up,

And they skid around just fine.

But ski them for fun...only when my brain is in 18 yo mode and my body doesn't hurt too much!


Skis are made to work at speeds and edge angles while carrying skiers at a given weight.   It doesn't matter if you are a world cup racer or a weekend skier, if you are going those speeds at those edge angles the skis will work for you.

 

My brain is always in 18 yo mode.  I've got decades of experience at being 18 :D.   I can ignore the pain, and my body still works well when not injured, only thing is it takes a lot longer to heal, so I do spend more time injured.

post #38 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
when the big snow comes , but remember -- in Europe where the mountains are 5 to 10 times bigger then yours and 5 to 10 times higher then yours people take their piste skiing real serious. Up on those mountains you will see people on 65 mm race carvers 165cm long, making their way down.And you will see more of those on a square kilometer then you can imagine.And they do this for a number of reasons : for love and pleasure, but for practical reasons as well (insurance limitations, hostile weather easier escape,etc.) Whatever a group of narrow minded people from North America may know or not know , around those places there the symbol ' Head ' is  a symbol of highest  quality race equipment and  highest quality recreational skiing equipment !And this fact is recognized not only in " Osterreich , aber in das ganze welt "!  I don't know much about marketing, but I know to tell good from bad particularly when skiing equipment is involved. And for me there is not such a thing : " works for some folks , doesn't work for other folks " For me there are 2 types of equipment only : one that makes you a better skier and one that helps you stay in the pond of the sweet intermediate stemming where 90% of the people love to stay  forever .

How often do you actually ski in Europe? ;) Yes, you will see a lot (most) of people on "race carvers" but if you are really lucky, you will see maybe 5 guys on whole ski area (talking about 100+km of tracks and 40+lifts), who are on FIS legal skis, especially GS or SG skis. And in this discussion, it's only about FIS legal skis, as some 17m radius  "GS race carvers" have so much in common with real race ski, as some powder ski from company which never even made alpine racing ski. And believe me, you wouldn't notice difference between Ligety's  Head GS ski and Blardone's Elan GS ski, even if you would be able to get them to ski. So some Head "race carver" won't make you any better skier then some Fischer, Atomic or Elan "race carver". And we are back to the point, that WC points racers under certain company would score, have absolutely no relevance to average Joe who skis on some R17m "gs ski".

post #39 of 59

At least my buddy Kurt managed to win the Galzig Cup on a pair of Rossi Hero M21 skis set at 87/0.5.

He could get any skis he wants and chose those.

I think WC skiers would not use 35m skis if they didn't have to.

post #40 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

That's not entirely true though. I'm feeling perfectly fine on real race skis... they are not Bode or Lindsey's, but they are still from someone, who finishes regularily in top 10 on WC. So yes, "hobby" skier can easily ski real WC stock ski. But then again, I might not totally qualify as hobby skier :)

 

Um, Ya!

 

......My 21 m skis work just great if I am really centered and get them way out there before I try to hook them up,

And they skid around just fine......

 

 

I think you are supposed to hook them up before you get them way out there. It is easier to start with a carve and keep carving than it is to convert a skid into a carve.

post #41 of 59

No skidding involved.

I'm talking about the time when you are weightless between carves.

A long radius ski with lots of base bevel won't start to carve until you get a pretty big edge angle.

If you try to pressure the ski before you have enough angle, you skid.

post #42 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 

How often do you actually ski in Europe? ;) Yes, you will see a lot (most) of people on "race carvers" but if you are really lucky, you will see maybe 5 guys on whole ski area (talking about 100+km of tracks and 40+lifts), who are on FIS legal skis, especially GS or SG skis. And in this discussion, it's only about FIS legal skis, as some 17m radius  "GS race carvers" have so much in common with real race ski, as some powder ski from company which never even made alpine racing ski. And believe me, you wouldn't notice difference between Ligety's  Head GS ski and Blardone's Elan GS ski, even if you would be able to get them to ski. So some Head "race carver" won't make you any better skier then some Fischer, Atomic or Elan "race carver". And we are back to the point, that WC points racers under certain company would score, have absolutely no relevance to average Joe who skis on some R17m "gs ski".

The first 35 years of my life ( from the age of 4 to be precise) ....   Back to the topic - now I don't agree with you that you wouldn't notice a difference between this and that race ski and it will be all the same if you ski this 'race carver' or the other ' race carver' -- all the race brands are the same ?! if I read you correctly. Of course that some ' race carvers' with the appropriate adjustments and an adequate boot set up can make you ski better then some other skis from other brands. How do you think Kristoffersen was able to beat Hirscher this year for the SL title. You think he has greater talent then Hirscher or something ....., nope, what he has is a better set of slalom ski (from Rossignol) , better adapted to his anatomy and better adapted to soft surfaces and this combined with an adequate boot set up. Atomic screwed with Hirscher's ski for a ... consecutive year and was unable to give Hirscher an adequate SL ski for softer snow and let him struggle and let him loose against Kristoffersen  doing absolutely nothing , but watching helplessly ( coaches , atomic reps and some ignorant advisors) I feel pain saying this since I personally know decent people working hard in the Atomic facilities in Chepelare Bulgaria, producing Atomic skis and boots and I kind of want this brand to be successful, but for the moment as a consumer I would choose Rossignol for a set of SL skis and boots. My personal experience kinda repeats and confirms what happens on the WC stage. I find the Rossignol slalom offering (skis and boots) to better stimulate my carving abilities then the Atomic offering. Mere coincidence, isn't it.


Edited by Bogatyr - 4/2/16 at 9:28pm
post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post


My 21 m skis work just great if I am really centered and get them way out there before I try to hook them up,
And they skid around just fine.

How do you get a ski "way out there" without it being hooked up? Maybe they're not really so "way out there."

A 21M ski is long radius?
post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 

How often do you actually ski in Europe? ;) Yes, you will see a lot (most) of people on "race carvers" but if you are really lucky, you will see maybe 5 guys on whole ski area (talking about 100+km of tracks and 40+lifts), who are on FIS legal skis, especially GS or SG skis. And in this discussion, it's only about FIS legal skis, as some 17m radius  "GS race carvers" have so much in common with real race ski, as some powder ski from company which never even made alpine racing ski. And believe me, you wouldn't notice difference between Ligety's  Head GS ski and Blardone's Elan GS ski, even if you would be able to get them to ski. So some Head "race carver" won't make you any better skier then some Fischer, Atomic or Elan "race carver". And we are back to the point, that WC points racers under certain company would score, have absolutely no relevance to average Joe who skis on some R17m "gs ski".

True.  As some guy named Lance said, "it's not about the bike."


Edited by mtcyclist - 4/2/16 at 10:04pm
post #45 of 59

Bogatyr I wasn't talking about Kristoffersen or Hirscher, but about you or any other average Joe. Yes top racers (at least some, as I was in this business long enough to know, that being best racer on the world, sometimes doesn't mean you have feeling for skis and you are able to tell which one works for you and which one doesn't) do feel the difference. On the other hand, there's very very slim chance, you will feel this difference. So we are again on same point, which I stated in my first post, Head's WC point count doesn't play any role for average Joe and his equipment bought from store.

PS: Kristoffersen didn't really beat Hirscher because of equipment ;) That's really really crazy way to think, and to simply negate everything else, from all the hard work, talen and so on. And you are saying Atomic doesn't work on soft, as opposed to ice? Ok so why did Kristoffersen beat Hirscher in Kitz? Kitzbuehel slalom was pure ice. I was actually on course there, so I know exactly how it looked. And second... Hirscher doesn't ski Atomic ski, neither Atomic binding and not Atomic boot either. ;) And one more thing, and then I'm out for some ski touring as we have nice sunny morning, Hansdotter did win overall slalom WC with women (on Rossignol), but it's kinda hard to say she was better then Shiffrin who is on Atomic or? And if only thing that matters are equipment and their setup, there's simply no way Shiffrin could beat Rossi racers for 2 to 3 seconds every single race she started... especially since women ski on extremely soft courses compared to men, and based on you, Atomic is completely useless on soft. ;)

post #46 of 59
Primoz, great posts, but somehow I doubt your experience and logic will make a dent in an entrenched opinion. I wonder if Bogz gets Head gear on pro deal. If he is, he's not doing the brand any favors using his particular marketing tactics. smile.gif
post #47 of 59
Holy thread drift.

Back to the original post, the last tie I can think of that the public's purchases were affected by race results, is when Bode Miller skied that pair of K2 Fours to the podium.
post #48 of 59

I always wonder how many of these race skis are actually made by the manufacturer whose name is on the topsheet, and not handmade in some small boutique shop like Blossom, and how many competing brands are made in that same shop

post #49 of 59

:rolleyes
Did you not read my previous post?

You cannot pressure the skis until you have enough edge angle to carve when in transition.

And you don't have edge angle until the skis are not underneath you.

Otherwise they skid.

Taking time for the turn to develop before you pressure the skis is a key element of high level skiing.

Ted learned from 35m skis how to get high early edge angles and is able to initiate (hook up) his carves sooner than most.

My simple way of saying this is that you have to get them out there before you stand on them.

Do you disagree with this statement?

post #50 of 59
Thumbs UpQuote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 

Actually, no the real answer is no. Ranking doesn't prove Head skis/boots/binding are better then anything else, but it just shows, Head invested more money into buying themself top tier racers then any other company. Lindsey was winning on Rossignol before she switched to Head (she didn't switch to Head because of better equipment, but because Rossignol was cutting salaries to half, and then again to half, few years ago, when they were on edge of closing down). Ligety was winning before when he was still on Rossignol (and he switched to Head for same reason as Lindsey). Aksel was winning before when he was still on Atomic, and he switched to Head for bigger paycheck not better skis ;)

So unless you, as average Mr. Joe or Mrs. Jean, are getting paycheck from Head (or any other manufacturer), this ranking has nothing do with this how good/bad skis you are skiing ;)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post

Well it was relevant to Me Maybe not to you but I have seen so much hype on head over the last 2 or 3 years it's unbelievable and I've never paid much attention to it until I see skied their skis and now I can say they really have a fantastic product for us lower level consumers

I skied Head's exclusively for 5 years. I am back to all Atomic! (5 pair)   Much happier with the Atomic

post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

:rolleyes
Did you not read my previous post?

You cannot pressure the skis until you have enough edge angle to carve when in transition.

And you don't have edge angle until the skis are not underneath you.

Otherwise they skid.

Taking time for the turn to develop before you pressure the skis is a key element of high level skiing.

Ted learned from 35m skis how to get high early edge angles and is able to initiate (hook up) his carves sooner than most.

My simple way of saying this is that you have to get them out there before you stand on them.

Do you disagree with this statement?

 

Do you get them out there or do you get inside of 'em?

 

I say the latter!

post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

 
Actually, no the real answer is no. Ranking doesn't prove Head skis/boots/binding are better then anything else, but it just shows, Head invested more money into buying themself top tier racers then any other company. Lindsey was winning on Rossignol before she switched to Head (she didn't switch to Head because of better equipment, but because Rossignol was cutting salaries to half, and then again to half, few years ago, when they were on edge of closing down). Ligety was winning before when he was still on Rossignol (and he switched to Head for same reason as Lindsey). Aksel was winning before when he was still on Atomic, and he switched to Head for bigger paycheck not better skis wink.gif
So unless you, as average Mr. Joe or Mrs. Jean, are getting paycheck from Head (or any other manufacturer), this ranking has nothing do with this how good/bad skis you are skiing wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post

Well it was relevant to Me Maybe not to you but I have seen so much hype on head over the last 2 or 3 years it's unbelievable and I've never paid much attention to it until I see skied their skis and now I can say they really have a fantastic product for us lower level consumers
I skied Head's exclusively for 5 years. I am back to all Atomic! (5 pair)   Much happier with the Atomic
You are one of the best and most knowledgeable and I appreciate your comment. I have to say that if I lived out west I would own that 3.0 GS Redster, one of the best skis I have ever been on.
post #53 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post


You are one of the best and most knowledgeable and I appreciate your comment. I have to say that if I lived out west I would own that 3.0 GS Redster, one of the best skis I have ever been on.

Thanks for the props L1, my current quiver

 

182cm Atomic Ritual

 

Aerospeed 209 Atomic Super G

 

Race Stock 188cm 30.5m Redster D2 GS  Flex 45/35

 

Race Stock 165cm Redster SL  Flex 37/27

 

Non-FIS 179cm 18.6M D2 Race GS

 

I am not sure how being out west is applicable to a race ski, but OK.  I am way out West and North. We get plenty of icy refrozen, garbage' to ski on , particulalry early in the morning in Spring or night skiing!  The idea that "Out West" is all soft snow? .........nah!

post #54 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post

You are one of the best and most knowledgeable and I appreciate your comment. I have to say that if I lived out west I would own that 3.0 GS Redster, one of the best skis I have ever been on.
Thanks for the props L1, my current quiver

182cm Atomic Ritual

Aerospeed 209 Atomic Super G

Race Stock 188cm 30.5m Redster D2 GS  Flex 45/35

Race Stock 165cm Redster SL  Flex 37/27

Non-FIS 179cm 18.6M D2 Race GS

I am not sure how being out west is applicable to a race ski, but OK.  I am way out West and North. We get plenty of icy refrozen, garbage' to ski on , particulalry early in the morning in Spring or night skiing!  The idea that "Out West" is all soft snow? .........nah!

My home hill is 300 foot vertical and then 3 hours away and 6 hours away New York and Pennsylvania about seven hundred feet vertical. Nothing long and wide to open it up on a beautiful ski like the Redster or I would own it.
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

 

Do you get them out there or do you get inside of 'em?

 

I say the latter!


Good point!

I think it can be either way.

Without getting into the swamp of crossover and crossunder, I like your concept of being inside of that magic balance point where it all works.

The one thing I'm sure of is that a ski won't start to carve until it reaches a critical edge angle for the radial and normal load.

Those that don't understand this concept can try the following experiment.

Take a sharp knife and run it down your arm at increasing edge angle.

You will notice that at some angle it will stop shaving and start carving.

On second thought, maybe that's not such a good experiment but I think the idea is clear.

post #56 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

 

Do you get them out there or do you get inside of 'em?

 

I say the latter!


Good point!

I think it can be either way.

Without getting into the swamp of crossover and crossunder, I like your concept of being inside of that magic balance point where it all works.

The one thing I'm sure of is that a ski won't start to carve until it reaches a critical edge angle for the radial and normal load.

Those that don't understand this concept can try the following experiment.

Take a sharp knife and run it down your arm at increasing edge angle.

You will notice that at some angle it will stop shaving and start carving.

On second thought, maybe that's not such a good experiment but I think the idea is clear.

At transition, as you cross over or under or through, you must be careful to apply normal load and no radial load.

post #57 of 59

Patience required.

First the normal load then the radial load.

As I have said before, a ski has to travel some distance before it has cut into the surface enough to start accepting radial load.

Once the cut is established, you can stand on it and shape the turn.

post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Do you get them out there or do you get inside of 'em?

I say the latter!

To be honest Aman I think different skiers may have different mental concepts but still end up at the same place. It's a matter of relative motion. That said, slalom skiers tend to visualize skiing their skis up under their bodies and out to the new side while in GS it seems more intuitive that the body moves across the skis inside the new turn. Frankly, l don't think it matters.
post #59 of 59

Thanks to the many civil contributors to this thread.   It's run its course, however: the thread is locked.

 

Epicski Rules of Conduct state the following:

 

"We are open to any idea, concept, movement or technique that can be criticized or discussed without flaming, insulting, patronizing, or otherwise disrespecting the person behind the idea."  This means that members may argue ideas all they want, but when insults fly, we draw the line.

 

Any posts that violated this guideline have been deleted.

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