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Rossi FIS Hero JR to tweener

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 

Was looking at deals end of season for my daughter racing 2nd year U14 and moving to U16 next season.

She's on Dynastar Team Course GS WC R20 165 cm / Rossi GS FIS HERO 165 cm and I found what looks like a good deal on Rossi's 2016 tweener model in 170 & 175 -- HERO FIS GS w maxflex120s.

 

Does anyone have some intel on the difference between the 170/175 R21 and the 165 R20 in flex and sturdiness?

post #2 of 32

From what I understand with Atomics the 171 and up FIS type GS are a much heavier built ski than those shorter, and indeed take a different series of binding.

 

Rossi could be similar.

 

I just ordered a new old stock Atomic for myself actually, partly because I have been been quite happily doing masters racing on a used 170 Fischer Jr GS and wanted something with shiny new edges.

post #3 of 32
To my knowledge, there's not an abrupt change at 170/171, but rather a difference between the junior and FIS U16 versions that sometimes overlap around that length. There are very small differences in flex between brands at 170 for the junior models,moderate differences in the short FIS adult versions, haven't heard that the R20 and 21 are significantly different. Personally, I'd ask her coach.
post #4 of 32
Thread Starter 
What I'm looking at IS the so called tweener GS skis which come in 170, 175 and 182 for Rossi/Dynastar GS. Next up is regular FIS skis afaik. But there might exist specific U18 skis too?
From what I can see just reading on their sites, it doesn't look like abrupt steps but rather gradual. Basic construction sounds like samish, but without, partial or full metal layers. I guess different material too in some parts. The 165 for instance has a full layer of titanal, the 158 has a partial and the 151(?) none. Binding and plate sounds like the biggest difference, and will of course contribute a lot to sturdiness.
And it's correct that all manufacturers offer these type of skis, but starting length varies. 165 is the last JR ski length for Rossi/Dynastar (other lengts for other brands) and I'm just trying to find out how big of a step it will be to move to the 170 or 175 for this brand. I'll talk to coach, but I doubt he has specific knowledge in this particular brand/models.
cheers
post #5 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsson View Post

Was looking at deals end of season for my daughter racing 2nd year U14 and moving to U16 next season.
She's on Dynastar Team Course GS WC R20 165 cm / Rossi GS FIS HERO 165 cm and I found what looks like a good deal on Rossi's 2016 tweener model in 170 & 175 -- HERO FIS GS w maxflex120s.

Does anyone have some intel on the difference between the 170/175 R21 and the 165 R20 in flex and sturdiness?

The R21 170/175/182 are basically softer flexing adult construction skis. They have 2 layers of metal, and are heavier than the junior R20 skis. Radius is 19/23/25. We have strong U14s on the R21s, and with a good tune, those skis rip. I've tried the 175-23 and 182-25 out in a league course for fun, and they held up to my size considering they are a U16 ski.
post #6 of 32
Thread Starter 
Thank you CK. That helps.
post #7 of 32
Thread Starter 

170 GS and 150 SL ordered!

post #8 of 32

Anyone ridden the 182? Captain Kirk can you tell me how much is the difference to the 175?

Ski will be 95% for free skiing on machine made snow - usually really hard with a bit soft crap on top. 5% some beer league GS races.

 

I recently demoed the Head I GS RD 176 (23m) and 186 (25-27m not sure). While the 176 was very easy to ski for me and I would have liked a bit longer ski (though not really harder - as I liked the soft flex which I could still push to very small radii) - the 186 was far too much. I couldn't get it to turn before going seriously fast. I'm on my way back 10month after ACL surgery - so will probably still pick up a couple of kilos (right now at 66kg - 145lbs) and muscles and 180cm (5.9feet).

 

 

I really don't want a ski like the Head 186 for everyday (it's the second longest Master model Head makes - and made for male adult hobby racers) - I simply cannot flex it and it skies me. Is the 182 significantly stiffer than the 175 model? Too bad but cannot find any shop for a demo. If the 182 is simply a bit longer than the 175 but still softer than the adult versions - it would suit me perfectly fine. Just afraid I get too much of a ski with it.

 

The only Rossi GS I could demo was the 183 Hero Elite Ti - that one was fine flexwise for me - but edgehold a bit lacking - and well with 70 underfoot it simply is a bit too tame.

 

 

I already ski a Rossi FIS stock 165 slalom and that ski is simply too hard for me. But well it's FIS stock, not normal race stock and even before my ACL injury it was actually a bit too much ski for gates (though quite fine outside - still a bit softer would suit me just fine).

Also does anyone know if the Rossi GS 170/175/182 come with full size edges or with thinner edges? I love the thick edges on the Hero Elite models - not sure if they come on the FIS versions too. My FIS slalom came with super thin edges (like half size of the Hero Elite in width, same in height) which are on top super soft. I need to resharpen them every 15K meters downhill (or 45.000 feet vert)


Edited by extremecarver - 12/14/16 at 11:56am
post #9 of 32
Thread Starter 
After 6 GS days on the 170 this season we're moving to the 182/r25. My daughter thought it was calmer and more stable (easier) than the 175 which she also tried. Her friend is on the HEAD 181 (?) r23-25. Seem like very nice ski too.
post #10 of 32

Great thanks. 182 ordered. Ha - if a 15 year old girl can ride it, I should be able too :-)

(well guess her technique is quite above mine, I'm still much better on snowboards than skis, especially when it comes to racing).

 

BTW - do you think a Rossi 14Z Rocker Ace binding will somehow be worse than a 12Z or 15Z Rossi Rockerflex binding? I intend to just put the 14Z Rocker Ace onto it - as I think I'm not gonna use the Slalom anymore (will sell it) - and thereby save 150€ for the bindings (and I'm quite sure I don't get much more if I sell the ski with binders). I could try to look for a Rockerflex binding secondhand though... (as 9Z is fine for me a 12Z should do).

post #11 of 32
Thread Starter 
She's 14 smile.gif Yes she can put some power into the ski. Not familiar with rocker ace or if it fits the R21 plate. We use the RF 120 (Look SPX 12) which sounds like it would be ok for free skiing. 15 will make the ski a bit sturdier which you might like.
Edited by Karlsson - 12/15/16 at 10:04am
post #12 of 32
I'd find out first which bindings fit on the plate. The R120 should work on the 21 plate - just did this check myself last weekend - but Rossi has this habit lately of changing its hole pattern and spacing every season, which requires a new binding, of course. So many Rossi bindings won't fit. No other brands will. And stores will refuse to mount a binding that doesn't fit into holes exactly. More lawyers earning billable hours...
post #13 of 32
Thread Starter 
Agree, check if what you have will fit. I know that the Maxflex and Rockerflex bindings fit the R21 Raceplate. Perhaps s few others. And Rossi=Look. This year Rossi race skis actually come with the Look branded variants.
Good to know is also that Dynastar is the same ski as Rossignol, sometimes you can get better deals on one brand or one brand is out in a certain length ... Good luck.
post #14 of 32

Both Rockerflex and Rockerace fit - they are 2 piece bindings and both part of the SPX series - I know that. And yeah I know Rossi=Look=Dynastar (though good call on Dynastar - did forget about it).

 

I wonder if the Rockerace bindings but without the rod in the middle behave significantly different to the rockerflex bindings - which have the rod and get onto pressure a little bit. Similar to Tyrolia/Head/Fischer Freeflex Plus bindings. I know on my Vist Worldcup Alu v16 the freeflex does not change a thing - but I guess it can play a part on skis with 2 piece plates like the Rossi.

 

 

I know user checkracer (czech racing skicoach and race journalist) who long time ago used to write here - once said that quite a few athletes switched to two part plates with freeflex type bindings - because they prefered it over a more ore less single plate binding (little rubber in the middle - but well thats a big difference to the two separate R21 WC plates). However they would never run a non freeflex/rockerflex binding on a 2 part plate. Just don't know if the difference is really tiny - or if there is a big change...

 

(I know plates make a ton of difference. Put my VIST worldcup Alu onto an Atomic slalom carver - and that thing is two classes better, 1kg heaver, than before with the plastic junk they call a plate). Mind the VIST can be drilled to accept any binding. Not sure about the R21WC - I would drill myself - but don't know if it is really solid. I once replace the binding on my Vist plate - not difficult once the drill made it through the thick metal (just need a stopper on the drill, else it's through the metal and all the way through). Now 10 years later put that plate on another flat ski - also easy. Loads of Tyrolia/Head freeflex bindings to be had for cheap in Austria in good condition.

post #15 of 32
Thread Starter 
The R21 Race (which is on the tweeners) is pre drilled to only take Ross/Look. Suspect it's the same with the R21WC. Don't think the connecting plastic that's between the toe and the heel on the RF 12 can make much of a difference. It's not a rod (metal bar), just plastic.
post #16 of 32

Ah okay - then that's different to Fischer freeflex - where below the plastic cover is a rod - which on the older versions can be preloaded with a spring - actually softening the initial flex a littlle. So hard to check in the ski industry before disassembling something if it's a gimmick or a function.

 

BTW - what size/weight is your daughter?

post #17 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post

Both Rockerflex and Rockerace fit - they are 2 piece bindings and both part of the SPX series - I know that. And yeah I know Rossi=Look=Dynastar (though good call on Dynastar - did forget about it).

I wonder if the Rockerace bindings but without the rod in the middle behave significantly different to the rockerflex bindings
Not sure you are correct in your initial assumption. Have you actually fit both bindings into the plate? I say this because the R21/R120 plate binding setup - which my shop guy calls the Rocker Flex - is NOT cross compatible with the R20/pre-120 setup, which they call the Max Flex. The two bindings have different hole patterns, and a different shaped connector between front and rear. Thus, the older bindings will not fit to the current plate. Or vice versa.

Also, understand your experience with Vist, but those are all metal, can be drilled anywhere there is not an existing hole. The Rossi plates are mostly plastic with some metal reinforcement, and AFAIK, the holes themselves have metal inserts for mated screws. If you just start drilling through the plastic, I doubt you will find any metal to anchor. So it's fun to think about all the other bindings you'd like to mount but ain't gonna work
post #18 of 32

Well it says so on the Rossi website (compatible with R21 racing and R21 WC plate)- and on my slalom Rossi I have the R21 WC plate installed with the Rockerace binders. So I do assume even though the ski is from season 13/14 they since did not change the system.

http://www.rossignol.com/DE/AT/spx-14-rockerace-white-icon--2016--FCFA023--product--search-results.html

 

 

I do think all SPX will fit (except those for system integration like Fluid or Connect). My girlfriend has the SPX 120 Rockerace installed to her 155 Rossi FIS SL from 13/14.

post #19 of 32
Thread Starter 
I have Maxflex 120 mounted to a R21 race on the 170 FIS GS and I have Rockerflex 120 mounted to a R21 race plate on the 150 FIS SL:s. Same holes. Also have the smaller R20 plate on an older 165 GS PRO 14/15 GS ski. Same holes.

My daughter is 160 cm/52ish kgs.
post #20 of 32

thanks Karlsson (ski should have arrived today - but GLS could not deliver due to traffic jams..... what a stupid excuse, Friday always has more traffic).

post #21 of 32

So - I mounted the bindings now. However - yes the plate is not fully compatible. There are 2 reasons

a) hole patter - however it would be no problem to make additional holes in the right spot. The holes are already premarked - so it would be no technical problem (take a size 3 drill and it would be fine).

 

b) and now I'm not sure if this is intention or if they changed the binding? The back plate is about 3-4mm lower vs the old R21 WC.

 

 

As I was not sure about the ramp angle - I simply changed the plate in the back too. The hole pattern is identical.

BTW - the front part of the plate R21 racing - vs R21 WC is identical - besides the fact that the R21 WC has threaded metal inserts for the screws. The R21 racing does not.

 

 

In general I wonder - why are the plates nowadays so flimsy vs a good old Vist Worldcup plate? They are not solid, they do not have a metal plate anymore.

post #22 of 32
These are youthskis. Also solid metal plates have been largely superceeded by resin/plastics with a metal frame and screw inserts. Better control of flex, cheaper to make, lighter. It isn't a new thing; the Rossi's Bode used to race had plates that had a metal (alu) box connecting two plastic/rubber/elastomer plates with metal inserts. I know cuz I still race on 2007 WC Rossi's. They've worked just fine all this time. The old metal Vists you long for weigh twice as much (trust me, own both, have weighed both) and are overkill for modern GS race skis that change their specs every couple of years.
post #23 of 32

yeah it's clear they are way cheaper to produce. You know if you lift it (I would guess vs the Rossi R21 WC plate it's rather 4x the weight - solid POM plus lots of aluminium (on the V16) - vs just plastic with inserts for the screws and not solid. But what about the Marker Piston plates? They should not be much lighter than the good old Vist...

I mean skis come and go, but a good plate can be used for many many many years. I use my Vist to beef up some redster (non FIS) slalom skis - the system binding/plate was real rubbish. Cannot note any negative impact, just twice as much edge hold, much damper, but I can still carve as tight turns as before and much better feel of the slope.

 

But you can open up the screws on the Vist too - then they do allow the ski to flex pretty well. BTW - it's clear on all those plates that the screws to the outside (bare the 2 most inner ones) are meant to allow flex - would you tighten them down completely, or open them up a quarter of a turn so they can slide?

post #24 of 32
Hi - My understanding from shop guys is that you don't tighten them down all the way; allow for the slide but no slop. Also if they have a metal center connector like my WC Airs, it can be cut to allow even more longitudinal flex at the cost of some torsional stiffness mid-ski.

I love Vists, all metal stuff is very cool. And obviously can be reused. My point rather was that for racing, lot of gear doesn't stay the same spec for very long, including stand height, etc. And the edges are thin anyway. So they're considered a disposable. And they hold up fine for the time you're likely to run the skis.
post #25 of 32

yeah - the thin edges on slalom and GS skis are a major PITA. I mean especially on tweeners or Junior skis. I don't see how in slalom or GS a normal thick edge would cause more than say a 0.1seconds over the full course length, likely less. So simply not relevant outside professional circuits. For SF or DH I could see it a bit more - but essentially it means you can give your race skis 2-3 times to a shop over its full lifetime only, and resharpen by hand yourself like 100 times. That's it. While the ski otherwise would be good for 300-400 days without probs.

post #26 of 32
Thread Starter 
Edges are not a problem for tweeners or JR skis. My daughter is panning out growth wise now, but during U12-U14 years I upgraded length/beef every season. Sometimes twice a season. Lots of skis when you ski SL, GS and SG. Always l o t s of edge left when I sold.
post #27 of 32

If you really just intend them for 1 season of racing - and have GS/SL skis, plus maybe even a set of racing/training skis - no. But especially if you intend to buy them as great skis for many years to follow (the 18x 23-27m are just that) - then it's really the main reason against them. I don't see any advantage of say a Rossi Hero Elite Ti 183 with 21m Radius - other than the edges. It's actually stiffer than the 182 tweener, much less edge grip, and the couple mm wider don't really help for soft snow either. On top they are more expensive in my region. The only thing that speaks for such cheater GS skis is the twice as wide edge...

 

E.g. I got about 300 days and 10 years out of my Snowrider Slalom Race ski, because they used thick edges. It eventually died because the sidewall popped out (edges quite thin) - but even then it was still better than any stock slalom non FIS ski I tried. Could not sharpen the edges any more in that section so it was over for it.

post #28 of 32
Thread Starter 
I hear you, but 99 out of 100 pairs sold of that type of ski are used for one season (racing or race traning). So keeping a pair longer is a rather rare exception. Edges are easily good for three-four seasons if not damaged. Speed skis a lot more (my daughter had 8 year old 186 cm SG:s that were very fast two years ago).
post #29 of 32

In America that may be true. Here in Austria the tweeners seem to be the go to ski for many ski teachers and ex-racers since last season. I see more adults on them than kids. (and often you could get free machine service in your ski school as a teacher, but that's really a no go on any race ski with thin edges). They are not as popular as SL FIS skis yet (mainly sold to non racers here) though.

 

I kinda think the ski companies do it on purpose so non racers do not buy the race skis. Beause with club discounts (often via friends) they do end up 20-30% cheaper than the top of the league cheater GS (even online last season model except for unpopular ones).

post #30 of 32
Thread Starter 
I wouldn't know about America. I'm based in Scandinavia and we're mostly in Sweden and Norway, pre season in Austria and leisure skiing always in Italy. FIS SL:s are the most popular choice among ex-racers up here, and I guess we're a bit more americanised than the rest of Europe. Fatter boutique skis are quite popular.
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