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Tilting vs steering in short turns - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Quote:
Ed wrote: " I assume there is a lot of leg rotation in there (I'm pretty bad at reading movements from videos)."

 

I think anytime a skier tips from the LTE to the BTE there has to be rotation as the knee rolls down hill to engage the new edges, I don't it is consistently possible using the ankle alone to make turns tighter than the skis spec'd radius.

 

Again, where do you want to go and what do you want to do.

 

 

FWIW, at the turn finish of the QCT I drive my inside foot down, onto my heel and forward 4" - 6"  to super load the edges to tighten the turn while simultaneously pole planting.  This harness's enough energy to propel me weightlessly across the fall line as I retract and instantly open my ankle and roll my foot onto the BTE to engage the new shovel edge. 

 

During retraction the old down hill ski will also be weightlessly rolled onto the LTE but will be retracted slightly further than the old uphill ski creating the "mysterious" move, or a mini telemark turn if you will.  This is where the range comes from to slowly drive the inside ski forward during the bottom 1/2 of the turn and abruptly at the turn finish.

 

I'll engage and ride the shovel edges weightlessly through the top 1/3 of the turn with very little tail pressure if any, this creates the feather at the top of the turn.

 

A good drill to practice tightening up your turn is to hang on the edge of the steepest groomed you can find and do the 1-2-cha-cha-cha.  Tighten your turns during the cha-cha-cha using your poles plants to increase the cadence until you can link 6/9/12 super tight turns in a row, use the 1-2 to relax/ regroup and recenter yourself for the next series.

 

Nail

post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

On hard snow and up to about 60-70 degrees cos(edge angle)*sidecut radius is a fairly good estimate.

Can you give some comparisons? What does it mean for skis with 11, 13, 18, and 22m radiuses at 30, 45, or 60 degree tipping at the apex?
Edited by Metaphor_ - 3/16/16 at 10:16am
post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Can you give some comparisons? What does it mean for skis with 11, 13, 18, and 22m radiuses at 30, 45, or 60 degree tipping at the apex?

Something like this?

skiradius_zps4224ea94.jpeg~original
post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Something like this?

skiradius_zps4224ea94.jpeg~original

The take away from this is that at low angles extra tipping doesn't make a big change. 

For example going from 10 to 20 makes almost no difference at all, but going from 60 to 70 makes a huge difference.

post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Schwartz View Post
 

Hi everyone,

 

I am a mostly self taught skier.  I read a lot of skiing books, such as those from [HH] and Lito Tejada-Flores.  One theme that is common in almost all skiing books is that carving is the ultimate tool of the expert skier.

 

 

 

I'm going to say that this statement is categorically false. Carving is a tool for an expert skier. It's a highly useful tool, and one that a skier must absolutely have in order to be considered an expert. However, it isn't the ultimate tool. It's just one tool out of many. Saying that carving is the ultimate tool for a skier is similar to saying that the hammer is the ultimate tool for a carpenter. Is a hammer a useful tool? Sure. Does it get used a ton by a carpenter? Of course. Can a carpenter really be a carpenter without a hammer? Nope. But that hammer is suddenly not so useful when you have to cut some lumber to length. Or screw something in. In that case, the carpenter is going to need some other tools. There is no "ultimate tool" when it comes to expert skiing. An expert skier needs to be able to utilize ALL of the tools available to them when needed to produce the desired outcome. 

 

It may behoove you to check the copyright dates on the books you are reading. In the late 90's, early 2000's, we were in the period immediately after the advent of shaped skis. Suddenly, arcing a carved turn was something that was accessible to skiers outside of the World Cup circuit (this is hyperbole, someone is bound to come around and say "I carved straight skis, and I wasn't on the WC." That's fantastic, but the point is that it was a rare ability.) Naturally, with this new ability opened up by technology, carving became THE THING. It was the one THING that EVERYONE HAD to do. If you weren't doing IT, you weren't a GREAT SKIER. 

 

The thing is, skiing has evolved away from that. Yes, carving is still great, but we have since realized that there are other things worth doing on skis other than carving. The advent of rocker and the widening and lengthening of skis demonstrably shows that it's not all about carving anymore. And if you're going to do things other than carve, active rotary skills are still a thing. They're useful, and more to the point necessary for some of the skills that make one an expert skier. 

 

Show me a person who says carving is the ultimate, and I'll show you someone who is whacking at a screw with a hammer. 

post #36 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

The take away from this is that at low angles extra tipping doesn't make a big change. 
For example going from 10 to 20 makes almost no difference at all, but going from 60 to 70 makes a huge difference.

Yep, even at 45°, you can only reduce the radius by 30%, and not too many people ski at that angle. I would guess 60° is the upper limit for recreational skiers on good snow, and even at that angle you only halve the sidecut.

The pic isn't mine though, found it online somewhere and saved it because it's really useful.
post #37 of 55

The answer is yes: most groomed slopes can be carved, even the "edge locked" carved variety. It really depends on the snow quality (injected is harder to ski and faster than soft snow, which dissipates energy by compressing etc) and steepness, of course, together with ski radius (or diameter?? :eek) and ski construction (edge locked is not 100% quite edge locked for a soft ski) and most of all, skier skill.

 

The question is really one of speed control: how well can you control the speed in a set of carved turns.

 

There are several ways to control the speed in carved turns without steering/skidding, but the overall principle is turn shape: the less the skis point down, the less they accelerate.

 

And this is where it ties specifically to your question: how quickly can you bring the skis across the fall line, without skidding? It can be done quite quickly! Watch this turn:

 

 

 

 

 

The technique to achieve this though is quite refined... here's the full video - notice that her vertical speed is quite low because of that turn shape:

 

 

cheers


Edited by razie - 3/17/16 at 8:36pm
post #38 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Something like this?

skiradius_zps4224ea94.jpeg~original

 

So if I manage to tip my SG skis to 70 degrees they turn at the same radius my SL skis turn if tipped to 35 degrees?

post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

That said, I have absolutely no complaints in regards to what a modern ski can do.


AAAAaaaaaaammmmmmmmeeeeeennnnn!!!!!! When I was a kid (50+ years ago), nobody my current age of 76 went skiing because the equipment required so much more effort to manage. Today's skis are WUNNERFUL.
post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

So if I manage to tip my SG skis to 70 degrees they turn at the same radius my SL skis turn if tipped to 35 degrees?

Try it and let us know. biggrin.gif

The numbers are just theoretical, too many real world factors affecting it I would imagine.
post #41 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

So if I manage to tip my SG skis to 70 degrees they turn at the same radius my SL skis turn if tipped to 35 degrees?

 

That's what's odd about the graph. Is the formula accurate? @Jamt , does it match your expectations? (deferring to the expert)

post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

So if I manage to tip my SG skis to 70 degrees they turn at the same radius my SL skis turn if tipped to 35 degrees?

 

That's what's odd about the graph. Is the formula accurate? @Jamt , does it match your expectations? (deferring to the expert)


Hmm - can't see the graph anymore... RLM's estimate was 50% of sidecut at 60 degrees - does that match the graph?

post #43 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

That's what's odd about the graph. Is the formula accurate? @Jamt , does it match your expectations? (deferring to the expert)

It is as expected.

 

My 210 SGs have a sidecut of 35 meter

At 60 Degrees they have a turn radius of 17.5 meter, and at 70 they have a radius of 12 meters.

 

The ability to increase from 60 to 70 makes a huge difference. I don't think I have reached 70 on SGs, my balls are too small, but on GS you can really feel the difference.

 

For comparison, 35 is also the minimum sidecut that FIS GS skis have now, and they sure make some pretty tight turns when needed.

 

My SLs with 13 m sidecut have a radius of 10.6 at 35 degrees.

 

Maybe this is part of the reason that FIS SGs now are >45m

post #44 of 55
Works for me up to about 65 degrees. My SGs are about 70m and I seem to recall having carved some 35 m radius turns. Going from memory and estimating distance.
post #45 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Try it and let us know. biggrin.gif

The numbers are just theoretical, too many real world factors affecting it I would imagine.

 

Like for example "speed". The faster you go the more you can tip the ski. However, if you are going 80 km/h, good luck with carving a 12m radius turn. I rest my case.

post #46 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Like for example "speed". The faster you go the more you can tip the ski. However, if you are going 80 km/h, good luck with carving a 12m radius turn. I rest my case.

Which equals to approximately a 4G turn, and it happens regularly on the WC. Dont' try it a home unless your thighs look like this :-)

 

post #47 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Which equals to approximately a 4G turn, and it happens regularly on the WC. Dont' try it a home unless your thighs look like this :-)



Mine actually look close enough, does it mean I can try? biggrin.gif
post #48 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


Hmm - can't see the graph anymore... RLM's estimate was 50% of sidecut at 60 degrees - does that match the graph?

 

Yes

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Mine actually look close enough, does it mean I can try? biggrin.gif

Only if you take video

post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

It is as expected.

 

My 210 SGs have a sidecut of 35 meter

At 60 Degrees they have a turn radius of 17.5 meter, and at 70 they have a radius of 12 meters.

 

The ability to increase from 60 to 70 makes a huge difference. I don't think I have reached 70 on SGs, my balls are too small, but on GS you can really feel the difference.

 

For comparison, 35 is also the minimum sidecut that FIS GS skis have now, and they sure make some pretty tight turns when needed.

 

My SLs with 13 m sidecut have a radius of 10.6 at 35 degrees.

 

Maybe this is part of the reason that FIS SGs now are >45m

 

Explanations can get tricky when equating sidecut directly with radius because, technically, they are two different measurements that do not always mean the same thing.

 

As an example, your SL ski measurement of 13 meters is the radius and the sidecut is the set of tip, waist and tail measurements of that ski. A 13m radius ski can have different sets of sidecut measurements One 13m radius ski can be fatter in the tip and another 13m radius ski can be fatter, instead, in the tail and leading to a significantly different ski.

 

The distinction is important in that, relative to factors of carving performance, the progressivity of the sidecut is directly relative to the progressivity of torsional rigidity, both of which, are directly relative to the progressivity of longitudinal flex balance. The dimensions, the materials used and how they are situated in the ski are all chosen based on the combination of these three performance factors identified to achieve a certain performance outcome.

post #50 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Which equals to approximately a 4G turn, and it happens regularly on the WC. Dont' try it a home unless your thighs look like this :-)



... and your alignment is very accurate through the arc.
post #51 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post
 

 

I think anytime a skier tips from the LTE to the BTE there has to be rotation as the knee rolls down hill to engage the new edges, I don't it is consistently possible using the ankle alone to make turns tighter than the skis spec'd radius.

 

Again, where do you want to go and what do you want to do.

 

 

FWIW, at the turn finish of the QCT I drive my inside foot down, onto my heel and forward 4" - 6"  to super load the edges to tighten the turn while simultaneously pole planting.  This harness's enough energy to propel me weightlessly across the fall line as I retract and instantly open my ankle and roll my foot onto the BTE to engage the new shovel edge. 

 

During retraction the old down hill ski will also be weightlessly rolled onto the LTE but will be retracted slightly further than the old uphill ski creating the "mysterious" move, or a mini telemark turn if you will.  This is where the range comes from to slowly drive the inside ski forward during the bottom 1/2 of the turn and abruptly at the turn finish.

 

I'll engage and ride the shovel edges weightlessly through the top 1/3 of the turn with very little tail pressure if any, this creates the feather at the top of the turn.

 

A good drill to practice tightening up your turn is to hang on the edge of the steepest groomed you can find and do the 1-2-cha-cha-cha.  Tighten your turns during the cha-cha-cha using your poles plants to increase the cadence until you can link 6/9/12 super tight turns in a row, use the 1-2 to relax/ regroup and recenter yourself for the next series.

 

Nail

 

Thanks Nail.  I'll have to experiment with the super loading you mention.  And I like the 1-2 cha-cha-cha idea.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

The answer is yes: most groomed slopes can be carved, even the "edge locked" carved variety. It really depends on the snow quality (injected is harder to ski and faster than soft snow, which dissipates energy by compressing etc) and steepness, of course, together with ski radius (or diameter?? :eek) and ski construction (edge locked is not 100% quite edge locked for a soft ski) and most of all, skier skill.

 

The question is really one of speed control: how well can you control the speed in a set of carved turns.

 

There are several ways to control the speed in carved turns without steering/skidding, but the overall principle is turn shape: the less the skis point down, the less they accelerate.

 

And this is where it ties specifically to your question: how quickly can you bring the skis across the fall line, without skidding? It can be done quite quickly! Watch this turn:

 

The technique to achieve this though is quite refined... here's the full video - notice that her vertical speed is quite low because of that turn shape:

 

Hopefully I'll be able to reach those edge angles soon, but not quite yet!  Are those turns really only initiated by tipping of the ankles (vs. hip/other movement?)

post #52 of 55
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Schwartz View Post

 

Hopefully I'll be able to reach those edge angles soon, but not quite yet!  Are those turns really only initiated by tipping of the ankles (vs. hip/other movement?)

 

It takes some work, but it is attainable... here's my more of an ugly duckling interpretation of the same turn (@LiquidFeet got me into doing these very helpful side-by-side comparisons):

 

 

Yes: tipping is the initiation, as you can see above, but all the movements are involved in making these turns. Tipping is allowed by flexing and being light in transition etc...

post #53 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Which equals to approximately a 4G turn, and it happens regularly on the WC. Dont' try it a home unless your thighs look like this :-)

 

 

I see WC skiers often tip SG skis to 70 deg but never seen them carve a 12m radius turn at 80+ km/h. What does that mean? IMO they carve clean arcs. Still, according to the graph its not possible.

post #54 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

It takes some work, but it is attainable... here's my more of an ugly duckling interpretation of the same turn (@LiquidFeet got me into doing these very helpful side-by-side comparisons):

 

 

Yes: tipping is the initiation, as you can see above, but all the movements are involved in making these turns. Tipping is allowed by flexing and being light in transition etc...

 

Nice comparison. It highlights well the difference in turn technique. Tina has the WC approach where she stays angulated and countered into transition and starts off the new turn inclinated and anticipated. She folds forward in the high C and extends into transition as she angulates. 

post #55 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

I see WC skiers often tip SG skis to 70 deg but never seen them carve a 12m radius turn at 80+ km/h. What does that mean? IMO they carve clean arcs. Still, according to the graph its not possible.

There is a lot of published information about forces in turns, and you dont have to care about the turn radius of the ski because the turn radius is easily obtained from the speed and the Force.

 

There is a simple equation

 

F=m v^2 /r,

 

so with v=80 km/h and F=4gm we get

 

r=v^2/4g=12.6

 

Notice though, that 80 km/h is quite slow for SG, In the WC final in St-Moritz they were clocked around 110, and then the radius would be

 

r=v^2/4g=23.8

 

The radius grows pretty fast with the speed.

 

Also, if you look in slow motion you see that many of the turns are not clean at those speeds

 

Anna Fenninger has some pretty tight apexes in this video. Probably not 12.6m, but not that far from it. Note that the high force moments are quite short.

 

 

Some more turns on 35 m skis:


Edited by Jamt - 3/20/16 at 11:04pm
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