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Terrible Quad Burn/Pain with New custom fitted boots (Dalbello Panterra 100)

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

Sorry for long post..........

 

I just purchased a new boot this year from a custom boot fitter, and I'm not happy. I'm set up to go back in to them this week, but wanted some advice. I purchased these boots and had them "custom fitted", but I get crazy quad burn when I ski after even just 1 run down the mountain. I have been really frustrated and thought it must be by bad conditioning (although I do work out some), or my age (42), but I did not have this issue last year, and I worked out less (I know my conditioning is better this year). I have had other people tell me its probably too much forward lean in the boot driving my knees forward (friends and random dude on slopes at Steamboat).

 

I totally get my knees should be bent while skiing, but even when I'm standing in this boot it seems like my knees must be bent (the back digs into my calves otherwise), and feel stress tension on quads even standing....Already the boot fitter is saying things like "well you probably never had a high performance boot before", and " your knees should be bent while skiing that is after all proper form"..I feel like saying oh really No shit?  I know how to ski with proper form, and I certainly never needed a ski boot that forced my knees forward and put so much stress on my quads like these do....At any rate yesterday I hit up some Demo ski at my local mountain and sure enough first run, Quads were burning up...I took off new boots threw them in the Jeep and then rented a crappy pair of ($25) boots; then I skied my ass off the entire day wirt 2 great skis (Rossi 100E and Monster 88); I literally did not want to come down off the freakin mountain. In the new boots I was lucky to get 2 hours in then my quads burnt out so fast......So it is not my f-ing imagination, or my conditioning, or my never having ski in a high performance boot (which is bull crap Panterra 100 ...really dude) and I'm super pissed that a boot fitter would watch me walk around the shop with my knees flexed so far forward and let me drop $500 and walk out? I truly did not notice in the shop and it was not until i tried skiing in them did this issue really present itself.....

 

The weird thing is that the Dalbello is supposed to be more of a neutral position with not much forward lean, so what gives? I have short legs so maybe the back of the boot is too high up my calves, thus driving my knees forward?

 

Not sure what to do...I really do wish I was a knuckle dragger some times...... :(

 

Any thoughts?

post #2 of 20

If the boot has spoilers take them out and see if that helps.  Also, who tall are you?  Maybe the boot cuff is too tall for you.

post #3 of 20
That really sucks man. Perhaps you could post a couple of side view pictures? Have you tried skiing with the boots unbuckled at the top? I can't really figure out how one run would wipe out your quads in the new boots while you can go all day in the rentals. By all day, do you mean 10 runs or 40? Do you know how many vertical feet?

You say that you work out some; what kind of workouts? Running? Weightlifting? I started weightlifting several years back, and I think the squats, deadlifts, and cleans have really transformed my skiing; giving me lots more headroom in the leg strength department.
post #4 of 20

Quad burn is generally caused by being in the backseat.  If he didn't have this problem last season and doesn't experience it in rental boots, it could be that the boots are forcing his knees forward and thus forcing him into the back seat to stay in balance.  That is not uncommon.

post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post
 

Quad burn is generally caused by being in the backseat.  If he didn't have this problem last season and doesn't experience it in rental boots, it could be that the boots are forcing his knees forward and thus forcing him into the back seat to stay in balance.  That is not uncommon.

I have heard this before, just was having trouble processing why the boot driving my knees forward would put me in the backseat? I'm 5'9" tall, but I think I have short legs with a longer torso. I did notice that the rental boots did not go nearly as high up my calves as the "new Boot"...I was skiing in PA (Blue Mountain), so the vertical is really nothing to write home about.  That said the contrast between how my Quads felt in the "new" boot versus the rental is just too striking to ignore at this point... 

post #6 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattay81673 View Post
 

I have heard this before, just was having trouble processing why the boot driving my knees forward would put me in the backseat? I'm 5'9" tall, but I think I have short legs with a longer torso. I did notice that the rental boots did not go nearly as high up my calves as the "new Boot"...I was skiing in PA (Blue Mountain), so the vertical is really nothing to write home about.  That said the contrast between how my Quads felt in the "new" boot versus the rental is just too striking to ignore at this point... 


I haven't experimented with regard to ski boots and posture, but I am pretty familiar with the various forms of squatting. With regard to squatting, front squats/high back squats are a much more quad dominant exercise; the ankle and knees are flexed more and the back angle is more upright with (relatively) less bending at the hip joint; even when the thighs are parallel to the ground, the hip joint is still just under 90 degrees. The low back squat (and deadlift), is more lower back and hamstring dominant, tending to have much less ankle flexion, more upright shins, and a back angle that is more leaned forward than the front squat; the hip angle can approach 45 degrees or less depending on your depth and flexibility. Translating to your posture in the ski boots, if the new boots are more angled forward, in trying to maintain the same back angle (relative to the ground) you are causing your quads to have to support all your weight. A more evenly distributed model might be to bend more at the hips to allow your glutes and hamstrings to share in the load. The tennis player waiting for the serve bends at all the joints, ankles, knees, and hips to be ready to go in any direction.

 

By the way, I share you proportions of longer upper torso and shorter legs. Rippetoe's Starting Strength has a great illustration of the different squat forms which you can search for by googling for rippetoe squat comparison. This page has the picture and goes into squat and muscle activation http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-conditioning/the-physics-of-lifting-don-t-forget-to-hinge , it may be applicable in your case.

post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattay81673 View Post
 

I have heard this before, just was having trouble processing why the boot driving my knees forward would put me in the backseat? 

Think about doing a proper squat. Your knees are forward, over your toes, but your butt is back. So your body's COM is way back, and normally you'd be using your quads to compensate. Or siting down hard. But the weights you're lifting are close to the front of your pelvis, so the total weight is in balance. Take away that barbell, and you'd fall backwards, yes? So having your knees forward is no guarantee of where your COM is, or how hard your quads are working. In fact, my experience is the more forward lean a boot has, the more likely the user will compensate by throwing his/her pelvis back. Unless we're used to the idea, we instinctively don't like to move forward as we hurtle downhill; it's counter to what our brain tells us to do. 

 

OP: Vis-a-vis your post in the boot forum. If you have big calves, and they also hurt, that means you're clenching your toes as you fight the movement backwards. Calf flexion will move your body forward. Having higher boots may have a bit of impact of your leverage, by taking some of your calf out of the picture, but I suspect it's more fundamental than a few cm of boot height. If the Panterra is more upright that you're used to, then you may be sitting back more because you're not used to leaning forward into the tongue as much as you need to. I'd bet a couple of lessons would help more than the same amount spent on boot mods. 


Edited by beyond - 3/9/16 at 8:14pm
post #8 of 20
I have this same problem with my Solomon boots. I saw another boot fitter that wanted to apply a gas pedal something under the toe to even things out but the Solomon will not accept a gas pedal so I just have to deal with it.
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by billy94z View Post

I have this same problem with my Solomon boots. I saw another boot fitter that wanted to apply a gas pedal something under the toe to even things out but the Solomon will not accept a gas pedal so I just have to deal with it.

This can be added under the toe piece of your binding if need be.
post #10 of 20

I agree with beyond's thinking that your not used to putting pressure on the tongues of your boots. When your in the correct ski position, your bones carry the weight your muscles don't. Now that you have decent boots, they help you get forward. 

 

On a flat surface, with the boots on, bring your knees, and nose over the toes, keeping your pelvis forward. I think your butt will over your heals, not behind them. You should feel your pushing the tongues of the boot forward. 

 

Others may be able to explain it better.

 

 

I don't work out in the off season, my first run of the ski season and most runs are non-stop top to bottom. My bones carry the weight not my muscles.

 

 

It takes a lot of commitment to get here. Most skiers ski in the back seat. You really don't want be there. 

post #11 of 20
I had the same problem for one day bought a brand new pair of Lange RS boots and after doing a little modifications to the flex woke up in the middle of the night with my quads on fire did not even think I would be able to work the following day but it was no problem at all the point being that I was farther forward engaged on my ski and I skied much better so I knew that I needed the flex.
post #12 of 20

Burning quads is classic sign of too much forward lean and or ramp angle.

post #13 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post
 

If the boot has spoilers take them out and see if that helps.  Also, who tall are you?  Maybe the boot cuff is too tall for you.

The boot does have spoilers, so I will talk to boot fitter and suggest that. If the Cuff is too high im guessing they cant put a liner with a lower cuff?

 

Thanks 

post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattay81673 View Post

The boot does have spoilers, so I will talk to boot fitter and suggest that. If the Cuff is too high im guessing they cant put a liner with a lower cuff?

Thanks 

You don't need to talk to a boot fitter to remove the spoiler. It is very simple to remove and replace. Trust me. The answer to your question is that it depends on the heigth of the cuff in relation to the height of the liner. For that you do need to talk to a boot fitter.
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post
 

Quad burn is generally caused by being in the backseat.

 

+1 -- kind of like always doing a partial "wall sit" while you're skiing.  Burning thighs in 3, 2, 1!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

When you're in the correct ski position, your bones carry the weight your muscles don't.

 

+1 also. So simply but perfectly stated.  You want to be what the cool kids are currently calling "stacked".

 

How did the rental boots make your stance feel compared to your Dalbellos when you were just standing around?

 

Clearly something is going on, since you go from Clark Kent in one boot to feeling like Super Man in cheap rental boots, even when driving two different but very "real" skis.

 

As mtcyclist noted, you don't need any help to pull your spoilers, so it's worth a try -- especially if you have big and/or low calves.

post #16 of 20

They are a relaxed more upright boot.  I'm willing to bet that you could find a bunch on here that would think they are too relaxed and upright.  I have these boots and love them.  Never had any calf burn with probably around 60 days in them.  I'm curious on what you have your flex setting on?  "soft" or "hard"?  You could try using the opposite of how it is set now.  I did try both settings but I have a friend who is a level 3 instructor that skied with me and helped me determine the best setting for me.  With the correct flex setting and proper tongue pressure these boots respond well for me.  I do not have the spoiler installed.  As far as the liner goes do you have the sport or the performer?  If you feel the back of the liner you will see the plastic goes just above the cuff but the rest of the liner that extends up above the pull strap is extremely soft (unless you have the intuition).  Where it is on your calf and how you have your top buckle adjusted is for your boot fitter.  Did you have any heel adjustments made?

post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRPufnStf View Post
 

 

+1 -- kind of like always doing a partial "wall sit" while you're skiing.  Burning thighs in 3, 2, 1!

 

 

+1 also. So simply but perfectly stated.  You want to be what the cool kids are currently calling "stacked".

 

How did the rental boots make your stance feel compared to your Dalbellos when you were just standing around?

 

Clearly something is going on, since you go from Clark Kent in one boot to feeling like Super Man in cheap rental boots, even when driving two different but very "real" skis.

 

As mtcyclist noted, you don't need any help to pull your spoilers, so it's worth a try -- especially if you have big and/or low calves.

IN the rental boots I could actually stand straight up....i.e. without my knees feeling like they were being forced/flexed/bent forward, and felt less stress on the quad (even just while standing). I looked at the spoiler last night, and will remove once I get a chance. I hope to get to the slopes once more if possible (PA is crazy warm now, so my chances of getting this straight prior to end of season are dwindling). I'm not sure what liners I got in these things (probably part of my problem, it sounds like I need to be more proactive and educate myself with respect to boot fitting). I have an appointment today with boot fitter, so hopefully I get this squared away........I will update accordingly. Thanks for all the suggestions and good discussion.

 

Off Topic:

And boy you said it very "real" skis...the 100E from Rossi at 182 cm was an absolute bomber, I could not believe how responsive and stable at high speed it was for a 100cm underfoot ski on groomers/ice...The Monster was good too, but the demo length was 177 cm and it just  did not feel as stable at high speed on groomers/ice.

post #18 of 20

FWIW, when you stand up straight in the rental boot are your toes against the foot of the boot liner ? 

 

 

I find that when I stand on pavement in my ski boots my shin's are leaning forward. If I put the toes of my boots on a inch or so higher piece of pavement it feels so much better. There's a Bus stop at Okemo, where we wait for the shuttle bus, the sidewalk is about 1 inch higher then the asphalt, that's where I figured that one out. Heels on the asphalt, toes on the cement.

 

The ski boots are supposed to make you lean forward. If you ski with your hips forward, the bones line up and they carry the weight.

 

Look at picture of other high end ski boots, you'll notice they all lean forward.  I can see pictures on the right side of this page up by the first few post.

post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 

Update :

 

After adjustments by boot fitter (owner this time) I feel a noticeable difference just standing in the boot; much more comfortable. After lecturing me for the first 10 minutes about proper form, which people love to do by the way without ever seeing a person ski, "i said well why don't we put them on and see what my stance looks like"?

 

"WOW, I see what you mean, geez no wonder you were having problems". 

 

 

 

Adjustments:

 

-Heal Inclination was cranked all the way up + removed solid heel inserts (I apparently had Heel lift Inserts too, feel dumb for not remembering that).

-Removed Spoiler as well

- Moved Buckle 1 forward too give me more room and accommodate my calves

-Moved Buckle 2 (ankle buckle) one hole further to allow for me to tightened it more 

 

 

 

from the notes the other guy took.....it looks like the first guy noticed my large calves and added the heel lift to ensure to lift my calves a little higher...which they did except they also forced me forward quite a bit, which put too much pressure on my quads.I still need to get to the slopes to test drive the new fit, but I'm pretty hopeful that this adjustment will do the trick, because I feel a noticeable difference just standing in a more neutral upright position...

 

 

I also watched him make all the adjustments and took notes....so I wont be such a dumb ass in the future!

 

Thanks for all your feedback!

 

:beercheer: 

post #20 of 20
Congratulations you really learn well. glad we could be of help. Bottom line is you get great information here and with that information you can learn to ski better.
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