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Binding conundrum: Salomon STH2 WTR 13 vs. Look Pivot 14

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

Hi folks,

 

So I bought a new pair of skis in DPS Cassiar 85, and have narrowed the Bindings down to Salomon STH2 WTR 13 and Look Pivot 14.

 

Initially, I was set on setting it up with the Pivot 14 because I just frankly wanted to try out the turntable design and experience in person what it's all about.  However, the concern is I'm most likely going to replace my current boots (2011 Full Tilt Seth) to something more technically oriented (but not race oriented) within the next year (thinking Fischer Progressor 11 Vaccum Full Fit).  So couple things I wanted to check with you guys:

 

1. My understanding is there's very little BSL adjustability with the Pivot 14, so if my BSL changes with the new boots, I'll need to remount the bindings correct?

2. Per Salomon's website, Salomon STH2 WTR13 does have some adjustability, but I read it's all from the heel piece side.  So even if I may be able to adjust the Salomon to accommodate new boots, the BOF may not line up with the ski's mounting point correct?

3. If assumptions in 1&2 are correct, would appreciate any recommendation for remediation.

 

Likely I'm over thinking as usual, and should just get some bindings mounted and have fun....but thought I'd check with the folks here on the forum.  Thanks for your time!

post #2 of 20

1) no idea

2) yes

3)How well fitted are your current boots?  If they are currently properly fitted, the BSL from your new boots may not be that different.  If you see yourself dropping several mondo sizes, likely the BSL is going to drop too.

So the mounting difference is going to be negligible, especially on an all mountain ski. you are not going to be able to tell that you are forward or back 2mm.  remember whatever BSL difference is roughly going to be divided by 2 in terms of mounting point chage.  So a 10mm bsl difference is only 5 mm in mounting point which is a +/- 0.5 cm

post #3 of 20

1)  true, there is very little range for adjustment.  If you bought boots that were one size smaller or bigger you would have to remount.

2)  there is about 25mm range of adjustment, in total.  BUT, if the initial mount had the heel in the center of the range(what most jigs will do), there would be only about 11-12mm of adjustment available.  But, the difference in BSL from one size to another is normally 10mm.

3)  if you want true adjustability(keeping the center marks aligned), mount demo bindings.  The Tyrolia AAAtack 13 demo is excellent and does not have a long plate underfoot, it is actually two distinct pieces and is probably about the lightest demo binding around.  Most of the ski makers who don't have bindings with their own name on them are using this binding for their demos.

 

I'm curious about what you mean by a "more technically oriented" boot.

post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thank you both!

My boots have been fitted properly so I dont imagine going up or down in size. The BSL for my full tilt is 293 (mondo 25.5), and I had seen BSLs for the mondo size ranging from high 270s to low 300 depending on the maker/model.

What i meant by more technically oriented skiing is I guess a non freeskier oriented boots like my seth. I actually really love the boots, but for the type of skiing I do which is typically on the front side with lots of drills (take season long programs every season), my thought was a more traditional style boot may be better (part of this could be me being brainwashed by my psia instructor). Also, at the end of the day, i got close to 100 days on them and they are starting to pack out slightly (i prefer them to be quite snug), with wear and tear, etc so I just need an upgrade period sometime in the not too long future.

Then again, the Look Pivot Im looking at is advertised as a freeride/freestyle skiing binding, so there is a bit of inconsistency in my thought process I realize.

Just saw this on look pivot, says length adjustment is 20mm, lot more than i thought or is this referring to something else...?

http://www.dynastar.com/US/US/pivot-14-b95_FCEA077_product_look-bindings-free.html?b=31481
post #5 of 20
Well first find out the bsl of the boot you're thinking of getting otherwise youre worrying over nothing.

Btw the fischer you mentioned in 25.5 has a bsl of 293. https://www.levelninesports.com/fischer-progressor-11-vacuum-ski-boots
post #6 of 20

I wear a 25.5 boot also and have two pair, Full Tilt Classics and Head Hammer 110.  The BSL are 2mm apart.  I work part time in a ski shop and have fitted lots of boots.  I've never seen a BSL for a 25.5 in the high 270s and would be really curious as to what boot that is.  Same thing with a BSL in the low 300s.  For all the boots we sell, BSL for a 26.5 is about 305mm.  We sell Head, Lange, Salomon, and Atomic and the BSL for any given size varies by no more than 3mm among those four.  AT boots are a different story.

 

I'm a certified PSIA instructor and I use three piece boots.  I've encountered people, there are some on Epic, who claim you can't be good in a cabrio boot and it is utter BS and prejudice.  Glen Plake skis in three piece boots, Bill Johnson won Olympic gold in Raichle Flexxons, Seth Morrison uses them.  Fit and flex are the only things that matter.  When I go to PSIA clinics I have no trouble keeping up, whether I'm wearing the FTs or the Heads.

 

I don't know what that 20mm means for the Pivots.  We've never actually sold any, partly because they are heavier than most any other alpine binding of comparable DIN range.  I'll try to find out tomorrow.

post #7 of 20
Thread Starter 

Thanks a lot guys.

 

Yeah, Fischer Progressor is something I'm interested in, but at the end of the day, I'll have to get the boots that fit me the best (though in theory, my understanding is the vacuum technology itself should make it so).....so that's why I was looking at the extreme ranges bsl to look at the worst case scenario.  I was just doing a quick look (evo.com has a chart that shows bsl's for common boot maker/models).  The lowest extreme was dynafit models in high 270s, though I'll likely never need them as it's for touring from my understanding.

 

I agree with you mtcyclist.  Just a little background: my instructor has been pushing me to ski more upright this season, and kept talking about my boots and something about how freeskiers tend to ride with their weight behind them, etc.  I've thought about it a lot over the season, and part of it was of course the skier in myself needing to do a better job, and the other aspect of it was the boot itself.  Not that there's anything wrong with the boots in itself, but I've realized the natural forward lean on the boots pushes my knees too forward, so I naturally tended to keep my hips a little back to stay balanced over the skis.  And with my knees bend like that (instead of little more upright stand), I've felt some challenges making fine fore-aft changes (though on the flip side, when i was skiing very aggressively - at least for me that is - I've found the forward lean to be quite helpful).  I've since taken the forward lean spoiler between the intuition liner and the rear cuff of the boots, and it's helped a bit (though the natural resting position of the tongue maintains lot of the forward lean of the boots).  In all, it got me thinking that for my next boots, I'd like to get something little more upright.  And I didn't mean to put words into my instructor's mouth, because he and I both agree that at the end of the day, it's the skier, not the equipment.

 

Yeah, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could confirm about 20mm adjustment with the Pivot.

 

Speaking of Pivot being heavier, my understanding is that the Salomon STH2 WTR13 is even heavier.

 

Taking the adjustability out of the equation, do you have any personal recommendation to mount on my DPS for a level 7/8 skier trying to progress further?  The general impression I got was that all reputable companies make good bindings these days, and there really isn't a noticeable difference in performance between the makers/models.  So I figured I'll try the Pivot because it looks very different from the ones I've tried in the past, and I want to give it a try.

 

Stats: 5'11", 170~175#, will be 36 next month.

 

Thanks!

post #8 of 20

If you want to try the look but need more range in adjustment of BSL, try the SPX which uses a very similar heel but on a track, not a turntable.

 

Ya, the toe doesn't move. If you change 10 mm in BSL, you change 5 mm in center of boot position. Not a terrible lot. Even top level race bindings with plates come with only 10 mm increments for mounting.

 

STH2 is a great binding. Look is good. I don't like the Look Pivots :duck:as the require an extra level accuracy when putting them on which can be tedious at least and risky at worst; think putting a ski back on in a couloir.

post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post
 

If you want to try the look but need more range in adjustment of BSL, try the SPX which uses a very similar heel but on a track, not a turntable.

 

Ya, the toe doesn't move. If you change 10 mm in BSL, you change 5 mm in center of boot position. Not a terrible lot. Even top level race bindings with plates come with only 10 mm increments for mounting.

 

STH2 is a great binding. Look is good. I don't like the Look Pivots :duck:as the require an extra level accuracy when putting them on which can be tedious at least and risky at worst; think putting a ski back on in a couloir.

Agree with MastersRacer that getting back into the Look Pivot heels can be a pain-in-the-butt following a fall. Look makes fine bindings, to me, it's just easier to get into and out of the STH2 in everyday skiing. The STH2 heel adjustment ability is a big plus.

post #10 of 20
Thread Starter 

Thanks mastersracer and livingproof.  I had read about that before with Pivots being hard to get into.

 

What is it about its design/mechanism that makes it so hard to get into?  Thanks in advance.

post #11 of 20

I think the Pivots are great, pretty much indestructible and a very simple design.  You are right in not a lot of adjust-ability however.

 

I do like how much travel it can handle before release, which allows me to ski with a slightly lower din (compared to other bindings) and still not worry about any pre-releases.

 

Most people say they are harder to get into because the heel is on a turntable.....it's really not.  And in powder most of us just pull up on the heel piece (also known as the dildo) and it's easy as well.  You might have to spin the turntable or flip the heel piece to align but really it takes no time to do it.  Concerns about the turntable needing to be completely free of snow to click in are also unfounded as I don't have to clear mine anymore than I would with other bindings (e.g. markers).

 

The binding does not have the nice audible "snap" when clicked in so can be a bit strange if you aren't used to it.  Rest assured your boot in locked in.

 

The travel of the heel on the Sollly is pretty huge, but big picture is that you pretty much aren't going to utilize it (maybe for resale? but most guys I know just remount anyway to get their boot where they want in relation to mount line).  

 

All in all, you won't go wrong with either.  I happen to prefer the Pivot because of cleaner design, elastic travel and the fact they are pretty much bombproof.  You won't go wrong with the the Solly either however.

post #12 of 20
We have a Pivot 14 in stock and I checked the heel and cannot see how there is any way it could have 20mm of travel. The guy who owns the shop has been selling skis for at least 16 years and he doesn't beleive they have that much travel either.
post #13 of 20
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the comments hbear, I may end up liking or not liking it, but I won't know until I try it, so good to get input from someone who does prefer it.

 

Thanks alot mtcyclist!  Curious what the website is talking about....but I think I'm just gonna give it a try, variety being the spice of life :)

post #14 of 20
I bounce back and forth between 313mm boots and 305mm boots with P18's without needing to remount. I just loaned my Motive to Epic, mounted for 305 and easily adjusted to his 315. They can be adjusted just like anything else.
post #15 of 20
My primary beef with the Pivot is you have to be pretty much dead center to get it to go on. The bars get in the way otherwise. Any traditional step in (including the SPX) accepts the boot with much more variance of initial position of the heel.
post #16 of 20
Thread Starter 

Interesting, thanks for that info Whiteroom.  Any idea whether P14 will have the same type of adjustment? 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post

I bounce back and forth between 313mm boots and 305mm boots with P18's without needing to remount. I just loaned my Motive to Epic, mounted for 305 and easily adjusted to his 315. They can be adjusted just like anything else.

 

Thanks for the feedback MastersRacer, I can definitely foresee myself not liking that aspect about the binding.  I'm feeling adventurous enough though to just give it a try and see what it's all about in person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post
 
post #17 of 20

P14 and P18 have the same range of adjustmet, IIRC.

post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 

Great, thanks MastersRacer!

post #19 of 20

Again not hard to clip in.  The table top actually has a "catch" in the centered position so it's easy to place.  And as for the heel snapping in and making sure the boot is aligned....well I'm sure you'll figure that out. (e.g. use your eyes and don't slam your heel down blindly at some strange angle that looks off from the toe piece.)

 

I might be lucky, but I haven't missed once yet!

 

Like I said, powder seems to be where more of the complaints lay (e.g. snapping in after a yard sale)....but as mentioned, pull up on the "heel piece" and you are golden.

post #20 of 20

Catalystman - I was faced with almost same choice recently. Just in case, here is a link to Rossi tech manual which contains some detail on Rossi/Look bindings adjustment (the manual is old but I found it useful regardless).

 

NB: I ended up bying Fisher/Tyrolia.

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