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Dull areas on my edges

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

I purchased a tuning stick from Ski Visions and use it to check the sharpness on my edges.  I've found a lot of areas, no matter how much I take a diamond stone to them, are still pretty damned dull.  I have no idea why they're dull but I sure as hell can't get them sharp.  Any advice on tackling this problem?  I only started turning my own skis about 2 years ago so I'm still a brand newbie.  Thanks.


Bill

post #2 of 24

A diamond stone can't bring back dulled edges.   You need a file. 

Files shape - diamonds polish. 

post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 


Thanks for the response.  Any idea what type of a file?

 

Bill

post #4 of 24

Any smooth cut metal file will do.  

 

e.g. http://racewax.com/c-27-files-gumis-stones.aspx?section=-109-

 

You don't want the panzer file however.

 

Most guys I know use a 2nd cut smooth file to do their edge sharpening. (Bastard file is a bit overkill)

Then diamond stone to polish.  

post #5 of 24

I have a tuning stick, and don't put too much stock in it.  It's dependent on holding it at the right angle and drawing it the same speed across the edge.  Your results may vary, but I have always gotten mixed feedback from it.

 

I rely more on putting sharpie ink or a magic marker on the steel edges and then doing the tuning.  That helps me see what metal I've removed. What tools are you using for edge work? 

post #6 of 24

This may or may not be relevant, but I ran into a similar issue.  My problem was the layer of Titanal located on the base side of the ski.  This little layer of metal butts up against the metal edge.  It was acting as a rail for my stones and files.  I had to adjust my sidewall planer and make sure I took down the titanal so it would not interfere with my sharpening.  My skis are super sharp now :)  Pete

post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post

This may or may not be relevant, but I ran into a similar issue.  My problem was the layer of Titanal located on the base side of the ski.  This little layer of metal butts up against the metal edge.  It was acting as a rail for my stones and files.  I had to adjust my sidewall planer and make sure I took down the titanal so it would not interfere with my sharpening.  My skis are super sharp now smile.gif  Pete
This.. +1.
Even the plastic or resin can interfere with you getting a good sharp edge.

If you don't own a side wall planer, no need to buy one they are expensive. If you do lots of skis then yes they are worth owning. If you do one or two new ski tunes every 3-4 years, than just take them to a good shop and ask them to just plane the side walls for you.

Then it will be done and It should really only need to be done once.

Then tune just as you normally would.
post #8 of 24

After you make sure the sidewalls are cut back, you need to make sure your bases are flat. 

 

Ski Visions makes tools for that. Once you have flat bases you'll be able to set your edges correctly.

 

After skiing today, I took my 1/2" square High speed steel bar and pulled it down the bases to see where the high spots were. After a few times pulling that down I took the Ski Visions tool with the file and pushed it down a few times and could feel the file touching the base metal edge most of the way down.

 

Then took the Ski Vision tool with Medium Ruby stone and pushed it down 5 or 6 or 7 times. Then put a 200 grit moon flex stone in my 1* base guide and slide it down the base to knock off any high spots or nicks in the base edge, followed by a Swix Swiss file in the base guide.

 

Then turn the ski up on edge and run the 200 grit moonflex in a 3* steel edge guide down/up the edges 6 times followed by a 400 grit moonflex followed by a 600 grit moonflex. Wipe the edges to dry of the 50/50 mix of water/denatured alcohol.

 

Then wax.

 

Check out this site for tools,

http://www.slidewright.com/ski-and-snowboard/edges/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Wax+On+Wax+Off+Sale-40+to+75%25++2016-03-04


Edited by Max Capacity - 3/4/16 at 2:52pm
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

A diamond stone can't bring back dulled edges.   You need a file. 


Files shape - diamonds polish. 
Woah, hold up. atomicman and jacques were pretty adamant that coarse diamond stones cut/sharpen, and files are unnecessary once the edge is set. Can i get some confirmation?
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

A diamond stone can't bring back dulled edges.   You need a file. 

Files shape - diamonds polish. 

post #11 of 24

If your edge has been damaged or you've somehow rounded the edge a bit, cutting the edge back to a point is going to require the use of a file but short of that, you should be able to use your diamond stone to touch the edge up and back to sharp.  I'd make sure you're getting the sidewall pulled back so your files are actually getting down on the edge and not just riding on the bumper.

post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


Woah, hold up. atomicman and jacques were pretty adamant that coarse diamond stones cut/sharpen, and files are unnecessary once the edge is set. Can i get some confirmation?

Yes Sir, unless you have some pretty bad damage or as you say rounded the edge somehow, Diamond stones will absolutely sharpen your edges. Using a file ever time you sharpen your side edges is insanity, totally unnecessary.....you would be buying a new pair of skis every season!

 

 

And who ever said don't use a panzar files is full of :bs:    Panzar files works great as the FIRST file when resetting your side edges. Although you best know what you are doing a panzar does in 2 passes what a 2nd cut may take 6 passes to do!

 

Of course my first passes are generally 7 degrees , and then still using the panzar at 1 degree over final edge angle until sharp. Then move to a 100mm bastard or 2nd cut!

 

 

and to the OP...screw the tuning stick....HOW DO THE SKIS PERFORM ON SNOW????

post #13 of 24
If somebody is new to using files, why on earth would you want them to have a panzer file in their hands?

2nd cut is plenty, so what is th guy has to do a few more passes? At least his chances of messing up are drastically reduced.

As for those of us that use files often, when you are tuning race skis the files get used quite a bit. Skis Get replaced after a season anyways so no bid deal.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post

If somebody is new to using files, why on earth would you want them to have a panzer file in their hands?

2nd cut is plenty, so what is th guy has to do a few more passes? At least his chances of messing up are drastically reduced.

As for those of us that use files often, when you are tuning race skis the files get used quite a bit. Skis Get replaced after a season anyways so no bid deal.

More passes is better? Less is more!

 

 

I say less passes is better. Ooooooh, frightening...a Panzar file.  It is that easy...let's not turn this into rocket science.

post #15 of 24

Slight hijack.  This was the first day I got to use my slaloms after getting the edges very sharp again ( I'm the one that had to use the sidewall planer to get the titanal out of the way).  Holy crap, completely different ski.  What a feeling to have that edge hold and to be able to trust it to hold.  So new problem........ that little cheater slalom can really store up some energy.  I am not losing the edge at all, unless I chicken out, so the ski is really giving a lot of kick out of the turn.  Do I need to use more retraction so I don't get shot in the air? Need some tips to control that launch into the new turn.  A few holy sh*t moments between turns today. Ski got way ahead of me a few times as well.

 

Oh and "pretty sharp" doesn't cut it (pun intended).  What a joy to have a hooky ski.  Most noticeable in the tips.  It just tracked immediately.  Actually took a run or two to get used to that sensation.  It was like cheating :)

 

Pete

post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

I purchased a tuning stick from Ski Visions and use it to check the sharpness on my edges.  I've found a lot of areas, no matter how much I take a diamond stone to them, are still pretty damned dull.  I have no idea why they're dull but I sure as hell can't get them sharp.  Any advice on tackling this problem?  I only started turning my own skis about 2 years ago so I'm still a brand newbie.  Thanks.


Bill

At some point you need to file.  Here you go.  This is new ski tuning, but the same applies to a used pair, just don't file the base edges unless you are going to metal scrape back to a flatter condition.

 

post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

A diamond stone can't bring back dulled edges.   You need a file. 


Files shape - diamonds polish. 
Woah, hold up. atomicman and jacques were pretty adamant that coarse diamond stones cut/sharpen, and files are unnecessary once the edge is set. Can i get some confirmation?


True if the edges are in good shape and maintained on a regular basis with the diamond stones.  When the edge is way lost you will need a file to bring it back.

post #18 of 24
Thread Starter 

Thank you to all for your responses.  MUCH appreciated.  Super helpful stuff and I will apply this to my next ski tuning session.


Bill

post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

Thank you to all for your responses.  MUCH appreciated.  Super helpful stuff and I will apply this to my next ski tuning session.


Bill


Good luck Loafer!

post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post
 

Thank you to all for your responses.  MUCH appreciated.  Super helpful stuff and I will apply this to my next ski tuning session.


Bill

:beercheer:

post #21 of 24

The difference between files and stones is a matter of degree, not kind. Files are coarser than stones (and some files are coarser than others, some stones coarser than others). The more metal you want to take off--the worse the condition of the edge--the coarser the tool you use. If you need to change the edge angle you use a file (unless you are extraordinarily patient and you have all summer to work on it.) The more often you sharpen your edges the finer the stones it will take to keep them sharp. Not hitting rocks helps too.

post #22 of 24
Correct no BS answers on tuning go with one of the serious tuners, Atomicman, Zetune or Chenzo (hope I spelled the last correctly).

As to tuning razor sharp edges with a file, yes you can if you have the "feel". BUT, you can screw up a ski really quick if you don't (most don't sorry to say). Plus with diamonds it is so much harder to leave a hanging burr and still have a great finish with little effort.

So go with Atomicman what posted as the gospel.
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post
 

Slight hijack.  This was the first day I got to use my slaloms after getting the edges very sharp again ( I'm the one that had to use the sidewall planer to get the titanal out of the way).  Holy crap, completely different ski.  What a feeling to have that edge hold and to be able to trust it to hold.  So new problem........ that little cheater slalom can really store up some energy.  I am not losing the edge at all, unless I chicken out, so the ski is really giving a lot of kick out of the turn.  Do I need to use more retraction so I don't get shot in the air? Need some tips to control that launch into the new turn.  A few holy sh*t moments between turns today. Ski got way ahead of me a few times as well.

 

Oh and "pretty sharp" doesn't cut it (pun intended).  What a joy to have a hooky ski.  Most noticeable in the tips.  It just tracked immediately.  Actually took a run or two to get used to that sensation.  It was like cheating :)

 

Pete

you need to push into the ski less and flex/retract EARLIER to preempt the ski pushing back. bend the ski with angles instead of pressure. Make sure to stop for apres afterwards - very important !

Thumbs Up

...in reality, it's a longer story as you might've guessed ;)

post #24 of 24

OP: remove some sidewall with tool, follow with 6-7 degree edge angle and file (panzer file if you have one) and only then file the edge with a smooth file.

 

Repeat anytime the diamonds don't get it uniformly sharp.

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