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Coming through the fall line into the belly of the turn into the transition and getting your skis on their new edges - Warning WC content

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

Good timing. I got to see the US Ski Team train SG at Hinterglemm last week. I thought we could maybe discuss what happens coming through the fall line and transitioning into the new turn. The belly of the turn does not get enough attention IMHO. So lets have a discussion going. To help us out I have numbered some important frames but feel free to tear it apart anyway you want. As a bonus I have two skiers to compare to each other. Maybe somebody even knows who they are.

 

 

post #2 of 20

Some good examples of leading the turn with the upper body while staying on the old edges.

post #3 of 20

belly of old turn = set up for new turn

 

end of old turn; skis at high angles;

inside shoulder/arm are held forward, inside foot is held back;

outside arm/shoulder/foot are held back to balance on outside ski

 

skiers lift outside knee to release; bodies are beginning to vault upward over skis;

skis on old edges continue to turn

 

skis are flattening and their path is straightening;

bodies are moving downhill over skis, and/or skis are moving uphill under bodies 

 

all four skis are airborne; skiers are squaring upper bodies to skis and lengthening

both legs in preparation for landing on new edges


Edited by LiquidFeet - 3/2/16 at 4:48am
post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Some good examples of leading the turn with the upper body while staying on the old edges.

 

Would you say they are vaulting?

post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 

Thanks for posting. I will try to put my comments below each section.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

belly of old turn = set up for new turn

 

end of old turn; skis at high angles;

inside shoulder/arm are held forward, inside foot is held back;

outside arm/shoulder/foot are held back to balance on outside ski

 

 

Yes, it the outside shoulder and arm are back and the inside shoulder and arm are forward. They are definitely leading into the turn with their inside shoulder forward and down. The skier to the left more so. They might be pulling the ski back, I don't know, but the inside ski leads by quite a lot. Hips look square. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

skiers lift outside knee to release; bodies are beginning to vault upward over skis;

skis on old edges continue to turn

 

 

IMO there is no sign of release of the outside ski. Looks more like they are vaulting over an fully extended leg. A result of their skis turning right while they are projecting their upper bodies down in the direction of the new turn downhill.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

skis are flattening and their path is straightening;

bodies are moving downhill over skis, and/or skis are moving uphill under bodies 

 

 

Yeah, skis are turning but IMO no sign of outside foot flexing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

all four skis are airborne; skiers are squaring upper bodies to skis and lengthening

both legs in preparation for landing on new edges

 

This position is surprisingly similar when you take in account that the skier to the left pivoted her skis while the skier to the right did not.

post #6 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Would you say they are vaulting?

Yes, vaulting is definitely part of it.

post #7 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Yes, vaulting is definitely part of it.

 

Do you see any release of the outside ski?

post #8 of 20

By the second frame the outside ski is no longer gripping with the same amount of edge as it did in the first frame.  I think of that as a release.

Maybe some folks have a different meaning for "release."

 

By the second frame, the outside knee has moved upward towards the belly button for both skiers.

That move makes the outside thigh get more horizontal.  They are bringing their outside knees upward towards their torsos.

The tilt of both lower legs (for both skiers) shifts upward towards the vertical as this happens, and the skis start flattening.

 

The inside knee moves away from the belly button, downwards from the body, as all this is happening.

 

The question is, does the inside knee move downwards away from the skier's torso because the skier is lengthening that leg

to propel the body upwards and over the skis, or does the body move upwards for another reason and that leg lengthens

is because the snow surface is dropping away from the vaulting body?

 

I cast my vote with the latter.

post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

By the second frame the outside ski is no longer gripping with the same amount of edge as it did in the first frame.  I think of that as a release.

Maybe some folks have a different meaning for "release."

 

By the second frame, the outside knee has moved upward towards the belly button for both skiers.

That move makes the outside thigh get more horizontal.  They are bringing their outside knees upward towards their torsos.

The tilt of both lower legs (for both skiers) shifts upward towards the vertical as this happens, and the skis start flattening.

 

The inside knee moves away from the belly button, downwards from the body, as all this is happening.

 

The question is, does the inside knee move downwards away from the skier's torso because the skier is lengthening that leg

to propel the body upwards and over the skis, or does the body move upwards for another reason and that leg lengthens

is because the snow surface is dropping away from the vaulting body?

 

I cast my vote with the latter.

Agree. Also about the release I think that is a word used a lot without actually defining what it is. There is a release of the CoM, where the CoM discontinues to turn, and there is the release of the edge, when the ski does not turn any more. However, in a good turn these things are usually gradual so it is difficult to point to a particular moment in time when they happen.

 

This is an example where the CoM is released but not the edge.

The turn radius of the ski is 9.6 and the CoM 43.7. The edge angle is still 40.8 degrees, which is not much for a racer but more than many intermediate ever use.

Notice also that the knee angulation is -0.7, i.e. already tipped towards the next turn, and the hip angulation is 16.4.

The CoM attack angle is 11 degrees, that is the angle between the CoM travel direction and the ski travel direction, i.e. we have a crossing about to happen.

post #10 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

By the second frame the outside ski is no longer gripping with the same amount of edge as it did in the first frame.  I think of that as a release.

Maybe some folks have a different meaning for "release."

 

By the second frame, the outside knee has moved upward towards the belly button for both skiers.

That move makes the outside thigh get more horizontal.  They are bringing their outside knees upward towards their torsos.

The tilt of both lower legs (for both skiers) shifts upward towards the vertical as this happens, and the skis start flattening.

 

The inside knee moves away from the belly button, downwards from the body, as all this is happening.

 

The question is, does the inside knee move downwards away from the skier's torso because the skier is lengthening that leg

to propel the body upwards and over the skis, or does the body move upwards for another reason and that leg lengthens

is because the snow surface is dropping away from the vaulting body?

 

I cast my vote with the latter.

 

When I look at the video frame by frame it looks like its the skiers vault against their extended outside leg with an engaged BTE. I will try to make a new video with a frame by frame analysis.

post #11 of 20
Thread Starter 

Here:

 

 

 

To me it looks like they come out of the previous turn on high edge angles and then hold their position more or less in one place. The second skier runs into some bump and is pushed a bit out of balance, but then they both increase pressure on the outside ski by bringing the hands forward and angulate aggressively to trigger a vaulting process where the skis track to the right due to being edged while their CoM tracks forward. Just as Jamt pointed out in his last posting. The inside leg extends due to the vaulting effect. This is the type of ILE transition where the inside leg does not extend to push the CoM up and over but it extends because it is kept on snow.


Edited by tdk6 - 3/3/16 at 4:56am
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

By the second frame the outside ski is no longer gripping with the same amount of edge as it did in the first frame.  I think of that as a release.

Maybe some folks have a different meaning for "release."

 

By the second frame, the outside knee has moved upward towards the belly button for both skiers.

That move makes the outside thigh get more horizontal.  They are bringing their outside knees upward towards their torsos.

The tilt of both lower legs (for both skiers) shifts upward towards the vertical as this happens, and the skis start flattening.

 

The inside knee moves away from the belly button, downwards from the body, as all this is happening.

 

The question is, does the inside knee move downwards away from the skier's torso because the skier is lengthening that leg

to propel the body upwards and over the skis, or does the body move upwards for another reason and that leg lengthens

is because the snow surface is dropping away from the vaulting body?

 

I cast my vote with the latter.

 

When I look at the video frame by frame it looks like its the skiers vault against their extended outside leg with an engaged BTE. I will try to make a new video with a frame by frame analysis.


Agree.  Outside ski's BTE stays engaged.  But the edge angle is changing, flattening, and the bend in the ski is straightening along with its path.  

Upper body is freely traveling straight relative to the outside foot beneath it since the COM is no longer stacked against and balanced on that outside ski.  

That foot continues to turn with the ski.  The upper body has become uncoupled from the skis.

 

So how do we define "release?"  For me, it makes the most sense to define it as an intentional movement of the skier which starts this whole change.   

post #13 of 20
Yes, but what and when is the movement? In a normal sl turn the flexing of the outside can start already before the falline
post #14 of 20
Different turns to me. 2:00-2:05.

Who was faster?
post #15 of 20

In regards to the belly of the turn, when the skis reach the fall line should they be flat, still on old edges, or already beginning to tip on to new edges? Thank you for any help.

post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by agreen View Post
 

In regards to the belly of the turn, when the skis reach the fall line should they be flat, still on old edges, or already beginning to tip on to new edges? Thank you for any help.

Not all "good" turns are alike.  Good turns are different.  There is no "should."  There are some "should nots" however.

 

For instance, gentle, "good," non-dynamic, steered turns (not carved turns) can involve getting the skis flattened as they point down the fall line, and getting them edged as they turn across the hill.  

 

But that is not what the racers discussed in this thread are doing, not by a long shot.  Their skis are flat for a very short time above the fall line as they flip them from one set of edges to another.

These skiers tip their skis onto their downhill edges above the fall line, before those skis turn to face downhill.  They feel them engage, or "hook up,"  behind them, uphill of their bodies, at the very top of the new turn.  These racers know how to do this precisely because they have been training for it all their lives.  Their goal is to get their skis to follow the fastest line allowed by the gates they are skiing around.  

In their case, the highest edge angles are somewhere near the apex of the turn.  It varies a little from just above the fall line, at the fall line, or just below it.  Their highest edge angles are NOT below the fall line normally, because that's slow (high edge angles at the bottom of the turn provide a braking action).  They are in a hurry.

 

Dynamic turns (on groomers) by recreational skiers have the highest edge angles just before, at, or just after the fall line, just like racers.  But recreational skiers are not always after speed, and they don't have gates to go around.  They often seek speed control, and are after the thrill of cool-feeling turns instead of crude speed.  If they want speed control, then they complete their turns by allowing the skis to track across the hill while flattening them.  Flat skis will happen in this case while the skis are pointed across the hill, just like racers.  

 

Getting this type of turn to happen involves getting the body and its weight (the center of mass, COM, or the hips, however one wants to conceptualize it) downhill of both skis while those skis

are pointing and tracking across the hill at the end of the old turn.  The skier will be "upside down" on the hill.  The skier will feel like his/her body is below the skis.  Those skis will tip onto their downhill edges, and then start turning downhill and come around to catch the skier before he/she makes a face-plant.  Honestly, it's a great feeling, full of the thrill of riding a roller coaster.  And this type of turn does not have to involve high speed travel down the hill.

 

There are infinite variations between these two opposites (flat skis at fall line, and flat skis above the fall line).  Learning to allow the body to cross over the skis while they are pointed and traveling across the hill is the first step to moving towards making dynamic turns.  Learning this needs to happen on easy terrain, as in Beginner Terrain, and it needs to get engrained into muscle memory without that thrill I just described.  That thrill comes later.  

 

Learning to do this, to get the body to cross over the skis before they point downhill (and thus to tip the skis onto new edges above the fall line), is THE important step that moves an intermediate skier up the skill ladder.  

post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Not all "good" turns are alike.  Good turns are different.  There is no "should."  There are some "should nots" however.

 

A good turn is one that takes you where you want to go, when you want to go there.     Generally, the more you turn your skis, the less they turn you.   When the skis are edged and the body is balanced over the edges, the skis provide most of the turning forces.  When the ski is flat and we turn the skis, the skis provide less of the turning forces.  How do you define a good turn?   (That question is for all and not just LF)  YM

post #18 of 20
I watched a young lady perform a carved RR turn with my instruction in 2 hours. It was a perfect turn for that environment. I knew that same turn would be a hindrance on the narrow cat track with steeper blues off to the side. The skills do and need to blend.
Edited by Tip Ripply - 3/6/16 at 6:01pm
post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by agreen View Post
 

In regards to the belly of the turn, when the skis reach the fall line should they be flat, still on old edges, or already beginning to tip on to new edges? Thank you for any help.

Not all "good" turns are alike.  Good turns are different.  There is no "should."  There are some "should nots" however.

 

For instance, gentle, "good," non-dynamic, steered turns (not carved turns) can involve getting the skis flattened as they point down the fall line, and getting them edged as they turn across the hill.  

 

But that is not what the racers discussed in this thread are doing, not by a long shot.  Their skis are flat for a very short time above the fall line as they flip them from one set of edges to another.

These skiers tip their skis onto their downhill edges above the fall line, before those skis turn to face downhill.  They feel them engage, or "hook up,"  behind them, uphill of their bodies, at the very top of the new turn.  These racers know how to do this precisely because they have been training for it all their lives.  Their goal is to get their skis to follow the fastest line allowed by the gates they are skiing around.  

In their case, the highest edge angles are somewhere near the apex of the turn.  It varies a little from just above the fall line, at the fall line, or just below it.  Their highest edge angles are NOT below the fall line normally, because that's slow (high edge angles at the bottom of the turn provide a braking action).  They are in a hurry.

 

Dynamic turns (on groomers) by recreational skiers have the highest edge angles just before, at, or just after the fall line, just like racers.  But recreational skiers are not always after speed, and they don't have gates to go around.  They often seek speed control, and are after the thrill of cool-feeling turns instead of crude speed.  If they want speed control, then they complete their turns by allowing the skis to track across the hill while flattening them.  Flat skis will happen in this case while the skis are pointed across the hill, just like racers.  

 

Getting this type of turn to happen involves getting the body and its weight (the center of mass, COM, or the hips, however one wants to conceptualize it) downhill of both skis while those skis

are pointing and tracking across the hill at the end of the old turn.  The skier will be "upside down" on the hill.  The skier will feel like his/her body is below the skis.  Those skis will tip onto their downhill edges, and then start turning downhill and come around to catch the skier before he/she makes a face-plant.  Honestly, it's a great feeling, full of the thrill of riding a roller coaster.  And this type of turn does not have to involve high speed travel down the hill.

 

There are infinite variations between these two opposites (flat skis at fall line, and flat skis above the fall line).  Learning to allow the body to cross over the skis while they are pointed and traveling across the hill is the first step to moving towards making dynamic turns.  Learning this needs to happen on easy terrain, as in Beginner Terrain, and it needs to get engrained into muscle memory without that thrill I just described.  That thrill comes later.  

 

Learning to do this, to get the body to cross over the skis before they point downhill (and thus to tip the skis onto new edges above the fall line), is THE important step that moves an intermediate skier up the skill ladder.  


Great answer! That really helps a lot. Thank you

post #20 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Yes, but what and when is the movement? In a normal sl turn the flexing of the outside can start already before the falline

 

In this specific case it was the added edge angle due to the aggressive angulation at the end of the old turn that triggered the needed vaulting force.

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