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Tipping your feet inside your boots - Page 3

post #61 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

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You need to be able to invert enough to get some leverage. If the foot is absolutely locked in place and you can't tip it at all, you can't get any leverage and overall tipping will be impaired - you'll end up using the knees and the upper leg. There is a lot of inversion available before the side of the foot would need to lift.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

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You need to be able to invert enough to get some leverage. If the foot is absolutely locked in place and you can't tip it at all, you can't get any leverage and overall tipping will be impaired - you'll end up using the knees and the upper leg. There is a lot of inversion available before the side of the foot would need to lift.

 

I think that boot fit is more or less the same for all of us. I don't think that anybody has any tighter or looser fit than anybody else. Tipping the ankle inside the boot is possible for all of us. Anybody can invert or evert the foot 2 degrees inside a boot. And it really isn't a question of that 2 degrees but what that 2 degrees leads to or is a result of.


I disagree.  In fact I have two pair of boots: one that fits much tighter than the other (the triple stacked custom foamed Koflach Comp 911), complete with heavily posted cork footbeds to support the foot and allow it to transmit very high forces of high speed (think DH) bumpy turn forces, and the other a squishy Solomon X-max 10 with thermo-fit liner.   If I can have two differently fitting boots for one skier, I'm sure different skiers have differently fitted boots.

post #62 of 87
The real question is where to store stinky 20 year old Kolflach's? Garage? The shed by the neighbors property line? Under the lift come May? P-U!
post #63 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post


The popcorn means you are waiting for my comeback, or something?

TDK, I love your passion for skiing...

 

Hahaa... thanks, and I did get a reaction out of you folks :)

post #64 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


I disagree.  In fact I have two pair of boots: one that fits much tighter than the other (the triple stacked custom foamed Koflach Comp 911), complete with heavily posted cork footbeds to support the foot and allow it to transmit very high forces of high speed (think DH) bumpy turn forces, and the other a squishy Solomon X-max 10 with thermo-fit liner.   If I can have two differently fitting boots for one skier, I'm sure different skiers have differently fitted boots.

 

But you can also tweak one boot for a different fit. Depending on liner, foot bead, foot board, socks and how tight we buckle up. The combinations are endless. So, IMO we have to stick to general guidelines.

post #65 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttinski View Post


Kim Hewson had a seminar on skeletal mechanics and skiing movements. He identified the primary axii of joints and illustrated how they translate to skiing.
The point germane to this topic is the foot tips across (pronates or supinates) under the ankle and the ankle flexes fore and aft, dorsiflexion and plantarflexion)
Tipping the feet is slight at best in a ski boot, the "air" felt under the corresponding toe indeed exists, it's not in the boot but under the ski edges in an ideal fit.
This subtle tipping action enables fast edge changes initiating a new turn, while this is not meant to be a primary tactic it is a valuable tool in the toolbox. I like alternating edges this way on cat tracks and flats, it leaves a nice sine wave behind and feels good.

 

Now this is the smartest thing I have read in a while. The purpose of tipping the foot is to tip the ski.

post #66 of 87

Warman's video has a biomechanical problem.  The outside foot carries most of the force of gravity and centrifugal force.  We want that ankle straight and strong.  Tipping the lightened inside foot impels the body to balance in an angled position putting both skis on edge.

 

We want some movement inside the boot.  Not much.  Semi-flexible footbeds work better than the common rigid footbeds.  Some skiers even do best with the boot blown out to give more room for the outside ankle knob to move.  Posted footbeds mean that the foot and ankle are aligned to eliminate pronation (ankle wants to roll inward--needs more support on the inside) or supination (ankle wants to roll outward--needs more support on the outside).

post #67 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

Posted footbeds mean that the foot and ankle are aligned to eliminate pronation (ankle wants to roll inward--needs more support on the inside) or supination (ankle wants to roll outward--needs more support on the outside).

I will repeat again. Posted just means some sort of support under the footbed. To what degree and if there is any "correction" depends on the knowledge of the footbed maker, and the needs of the athlete. To say posted means "rigid and aligned" is incorrect.

You can have a fully posted footbed and it can be extremely flexable. You can also have a totally unposted foot bed and be completely rigid to the extent that an athlete would be able to flex it.

As to what is "better, or worse" that often depends on the goal and needs of the athlete.
post #68 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

Warman's video has a biomechanical problem.  The outside foot carries most of the force of gravity and centrifugal force.  We want that ankle straight and strong.  Tipping the lightened inside foot impels the body to balance in an angled position putting both skis on edge.

We want some movement inside the boot.  Not much.  Semi-flexible footbeds work better than the common rigid footbeds.  Some skiers even do best with the boot blown out to give more room for the outside ankle knob to move.  Posted footbeds mean that the foot and ankle are aligned to eliminate pronation (ankle wants to roll inward--needs more support on the inside) or supination (ankle wants to roll outward--needs more support on the outside).
Regarding some of SSG's other comments. I agree with some flexability in the footbeds is beneficial for most athletes.
And yes we do want some movement.

Straight and strong yes, but you still want to be able to articulate your foot/ankle in the boot so some movement has to happen. You can be straight and strong and still "tip the feet" or at least create those subtle forces to guide the skis just enough. Being able to use your ankles to make these very small adjustments very quickly is what makes those real good smooth looking turns possible. Without that subtle adjustments in the ankles, we would have to make those adjustments with large movements and balance changes in the upper legs, hips upper boddy and hands..
post #69 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post


Regarding some of SSG's other comments. I agree with some flexability in the footbeds is beneficial for most athletes.
And yes we do want some movement.

Straight and strong yes, but you still want to be able to articulate your foot/ankle in the boot so some movement has to happen. You can be straight and strong and still "tip the feet" or at least create those subtle forces to guide the skis just enough. Being able to use your ankles to make these very small adjustments very quickly is what makes those real good smooth looking turns possible. Without that subtle adjustments in the ankles, we would have to make those adjustments with large movements and balance changes in the upper legs, hips upper boddy and hands..

What about his outside ankle knob comment.   Is he trying to describe (wrongly I might add) creating some navicular area room?

post #70 of 87
I saw the ankle knob issue as a fit problem. Not a tipping the foot issue. I too am a bit confused by the comment.
post #71 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

I saw the ankle knob issue as a fit problem. Not a tipping the foot issue. I too am a bit confused by the comment.

 

I have to stretch my boots around the ankles because as I ski my ankle knobs hurt against the shell. In the shop they feel ok. So I guess that means that my foot moves some inside the boot. Which brings me back to the issue that we probably all use our ankles more or less to the same extent but without paying any attention to it.

post #72 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I have to stretch my boots around the ankles because as I ski my ankle knobs hurt against the shell. In the shop they feel ok. So I guess that means that my foot moves some inside the boot. Which brings me back to the issue that we probably all use our ankles more or less to the same extent but without paying any attention to it.

That symptom and fix tells me its a fit issue. Yes we will move a little in the boot. If we can't move we would not be able to articulate our foot and make adjustments. Pressure or hot spots due to fit problems will always be exagerated by skiing over standing in the shop.

DC
post #73 of 87

I have noticed when skiing at moderate speeds (guessing about 20-25 mph) flat light in bumped up tree runs when you can't see the bumps and find yourself adjusting to terrain changes (bumps) that you are in before you see them, that the stiff posted boots are more difficult to ski in and force you to adjust with upper body much more than the softer boots with more flexible footbeds, which make it much easier. 

 

The stiffer boots with strongly posted footbeds do a much better job at higher speed  (60+ mph) skiing.

 

Edit: horses for courses.

post #74 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

I have noticed when skiing at moderate speeds (guessing about 20-25 mph) flat light in bumped up tree runs when you can't see the bumps and find yourself adjusting to terrain changes (bumps) that you are in before you see them, that the stiff posted boots are more difficult to ski in and force you to adjust with upper body much more than the softer boots with more flexible footbeds, which make it much easier. 

The stiffer boots with strongly posted footbeds do a much better job at higher speed  (60+ mph) skiing.

Faster speeds means more energy. More energy means being able bend or flex a stiffer boot. Going slower means less energy. Less energy means a softer boot will still flex/bend where a stiff boot will just transfer the energy up the chain and to your upper body.
post #75 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

Warman's video has a biomechanical problem.  The outside foot carries most of the force of gravity and centrifugal force.  We want that ankle straight and strong.  Tipping the lightened inside foot impels the body to balance in an angled position putting both skis on edge.

We want some movement inside the boot.  Not much.  Semi-flexible footbeds work better than the common rigid footbeds.  Some skiers even do best with the boot blown out to give more room for the outside ankle knob to move.  Posted footbeds mean that the foot and ankle are aligned to eliminate pronation (ankle wants to roll inward--needs more support on the inside) or supination (ankle wants to roll outward--needs more support on the outside).
Regarding some of SSG's other comments. I agree with some flexability in the footbeds is beneficial for most athletes.
And yes we do want some movement.

Straight and strong yes, but you still want to be able to articulate your foot/ankle in the boot so some movement has to happen. You can be straight and strong and still "tip the feet" or at least create those subtle forces to guide the skis just enough. Being able to use your ankles to make these very small adjustments very quickly is what makes those real good smooth looking turns possible. Without that subtle adjustments in the ankles, we would have to make those adjustments with large movements and balance changes in the upper legs, hips upper boddy and hands..


So what about injected liners?  Don't they completely fill the spaces between the foot and the shell with stiff material?  

If that's the case, there will be no extra room in the boot for moving the foot around inside it.  

The quickest and most precise response of the ski to the skier's movements comes with injected liners, doesn't it?

post #76 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post


So what about injected liners?  Don't they completely fill the spaces between the foot and the shell with stiff material?  
If that's the case, there will be no extra room in the boot for moving the foot around inside it.  
The quickest and most precise response of the ski to the skier's movements comes with injected liners, doesn't it?

You can also get a super tight fit without foam liners. In the wc they use both. Yes, they fill all the gaps. My feet were totally blue as they came out. Over time the foam compresses a bit. I cant move my foot inside but I can rotate at the ankle to allow for tipping.
post #77 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 


So what about injected liners?  Don't they completely fill the spaces between the foot and the shell with stiff material?  

If that's the case, there will be no extra room in the boot for moving the foot around inside it.  

The quickest and most precise response of the ski to the skier's movements comes with injected liners, doesn't it?

I have plug boots and injected liners. I can tip my feet just fine the amount that is needed. Different systems have different stiffness of the foam. I have heard that the stiffest ones that were designed for high level racer were actually too stiff so they are not used that often.

My soles are semi-rigid. They are made by a guy who is doing a research study together with the local university on the optimal support level of ski insoles. It will be published soon.

 

If your feet are too loose inside the boot you immediately feel that you lose control. If the foot is too restricted you lose important balance and movement abilities. It is a compromise, and the optimal is quite different depending on your skiing ability (forces) and foot type.

post #78 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

I have plug boots and injected liners. I can tip my feet just fine the amount that is needed. Different systems have different stiffness of the foam. I have heard that the stiffest ones that were designed for high level racer were actually too stiff so they are not used that often.

My soles are semi-rigid. They are made by a guy who is doing a research study together with the local university on the optimal support level of ski insoles. It will be published soon.

 

If your feet are too loose inside the boot you immediately feel that you lose control. If the foot is too restricted you lose important balance and movement abilities. It is a compromise, and the optimal is quite different depending on your skiing ability (forces) and foot type.

 

It will be interesting to read the study... if its going to be public that is. I'm currently on Formthotics foot beads. They are great. I also use them for tennis. 

post #79 of 87
It is all about creating leverage and maintaining stability. To get the most amount of leverage you have to roll slightly off center. That is why it is so important to support the area just behind into the inside of the ball of the foot. It is a ball of the foot that has to be supported properly and the old-school thinking was that one was supposed to support the arch. On a practical level the Arch has to give way a bit so the lower part of the shin just above the ankle can best leverage in to the boot. It is the fine tuning adjustment that allows all the elements of the foot, foot bed and cuff of the boot to work together in the most efficient way.

If you want to discover something interesting see if you can find any information about the old Caber boots with rocker soles. I think they were in genius and the head of their time but a marketing disaster because folks in those days didn't understand the importance of the foot and ankle roll inside the boot.
post #80 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

It is all about creating leverage and maintaining stability. To get the most amount of leverage you have to roll slightly off center. That is why it is so important to support the area just behind into the inside of the ball of the foot. It is a ball of the foot that has to be supported properly and the old-school thinking was that one was supposed to support the arch. On a practical level the Arch has to give way a bit so the lower part of the shin just above the ankle can best leverage in to the boot. It is the fine tuning adjustment that allows all the elements of the foot, foot bed and cuff of the boot to work together in the most efficient way.

If you want to discover something interesting see if you can find any information about the old Caber boots with rocker soles. I think they were in genius and the head of their time but a marketing disaster because folks in those days didn't understand the importance of the foot and ankle roll inside the boot.

Very interesting, I have often thought that it would be interesting to test "rocking" soles but I had no idea it already existed at one time. Did you ever try them?

post #81 of 87
FWIW, I skied on teley gear Saturday... The boot fit is nowhere near as precise as my alpine boots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Very interesting, I have often thought that it would be interesting to test "rocking" soles but I had no idea it already existed at one time. Did you ever try them?

On telemark boots all the time until the higher performance ones all went flat. smile.gif
post #82 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

It is all about creating leverage and maintaining stability. To get the most amount of leverage you have to roll slightly off center. That is why it is so important to support the area just behind into the inside of the ball of the foot. It is a ball of the foot that has to be supported properly and the old-school thinking was that one was supposed to support the arch. On a practical level the Arch has to give way a bit so the lower part of the shin just above the ankle can best leverage in to the boot. It is the fine tuning adjustment that allows all the elements of the foot, foot bed and cuff of the boot to work together in the most efficient way.

If you want to discover something interesting see if you can find any information about the old Caber boots with rocker soles. I think they were in genius and the head of their time but a marketing disaster because folks in those days didn't understand the importance of the foot and ankle roll inside the boot.

 

How did the rocker sole function?

post #83 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

How did the rocker sole function?

 It had a little "peanut" underneath the foot board (the platform which the liner sits on top of ) which gave allowed rolling of the foot and ankle a slight amount.  If you're old enough to recall, the general thinking in those days was to immobilize the foot, thinking that all the action happened at or near the knees.  If you don't remember that, you probably won't remember the short lived cycle of knee-length ski boots either. Anyway, the rocker sole solved a problem that we created for ourselves by over-supporting our feet with inflexible insoles. 

 

I think these boots were called Caber "Bio".  I found an article that I believe reviews (advertises?) these boots, but I think even Caber or the marketeers didn't quite understand why they worked. Looking back it seems like we were in the "dark ages" of skiing.   Anyway, if you want to read more about it I think this link will take you directly there... If it doesn't, then google Caber Bio and see the ski/skiing magazine 1979 links and the links should take you to the article. 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=wIUrNLzoiwwC&pg=PA26&dq=caber+bio+ski+boots&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4z9PryujLAhXBOiYKHVmsDTEQ6AEIPTAC#v=onepage&q=caber%20bio%20ski%20boots&f=false

post #84 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

 It had a little "peanut" underneath the foot board (the platform which the liner sits on top of ) which gave allowed rolling of the foot and ankle a slight amount.  If you're old enough to recall, the general thinking in those days was to immobilize the foot, thinking that all the action happened at or near the knees.  If you don't remember that, you probably won't remember the short lived cycle of knee-length ski boots either. Anyway, the rocker sole solved a problem that we created for ourselves by over-supporting our feet with inflexible insoles. 

 

I think these boots were called Caber "Bio".  I found an article that I believe reviews (advertises?) these boots, but I think even Caber or the marketeers didn't quite understand why they worked. Looking back it seems like we were in the "dark ages" of skiing.   Anyway, if you want to read more about it I think this link will take you directly there... If it doesn't, then google Caber Bio and see the ski/skiing magazine 1979 links and the links should take you to the article. 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=wIUrNLzoiwwC&pg=PA26&dq=caber+bio+ski+boots&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4z9PryujLAhXBOiYKHVmsDTEQ6AEIPTAC#v=onepage&q=caber%20bio%20ski%20boots&f=false

Weird, in the commercial it says "Dr Joel Eisenberg... has conclusively demonstrated the Cavus foot is the posture of most, if not all, the top ski racers in the world".

If you google cavus foot is seems to be a condition. The condition is that the feet have high arches.

 

I wonder if there is any correlation between high arches and racer performance today.

 

Here is another commercial for the boot, written by Dr Eisenberg himself.

 

https://books.google.se/books?id=f9YK_JMYCAwC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=cavus+foot+skiing&source=bl&ots=sJ9-gN4HdI&sig=BXzndl_7YNHgiYah8WZ7-N5qu68&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjn5b-w5ujLAhXkNpoKHSjZDZcQ6AEIPTAH#v=onepage&q=cavus%20foot%20skiing&f=false

post #85 of 87
post #86 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Weird, in the commercial it says "Dr Joel Eisenberg... has conclusively demonstrated the Cavus foot is the posture of most, if not all, the top ski racers in the world".

If you google cavus foot is seems to be a condition. The condition is that the feet have high arches.

 

I wonder if there is any correlation between high arches and racer performance today.

 

Here is another commercial for the boot, written by Dr Eisenberg himself.

 

https://books.google.se/books?id=f9YK_JMYCAwC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=cavus+foot+skiing&source=bl&ots=sJ9-gN4HdI&sig=BXzndl_7YNHgiYah8WZ7-N5qu68&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjn5b-w5ujLAhXkNpoKHSjZDZcQ6AEIPTAH#v=onepage&q=cavus%20foot%20skiing&f=false

 

I cannot tell you about the correlation between high arches and racer performance. I would suspect it is minimal given the amount of technical advances we have in creating custom insoles and liners and how much more we know about ski/boot/binding setup. 

 

Thank you for providing the link.  I did read Dr. Eisenberg's schpiel regarding the Caber Bio.  Only 30+ years later have we come to accept (to some extent) what Caber was saying back then. What Caber did was create a system to overcome the deficiencies of the rigid insole. The approach some of us take now is to support the interior area of the foot as to provide a central balance point and gone to semi-rigid insoles as to support the arch without impeding necessary ankle movement. I had written a blog post about it some years back (2011), but sadly a former ISP deleted all my blogs, but I found  the original and created a PDF.  If anyone is interested PM your email address and I'll sent it to you. [Or can a PDF be uploaded to the forum?]

post #87 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

If your feet are too loose inside the boot you immediately feel that you lose control. If the foot is too restricted you lose important balance and movement abilities. It is a compromise, and the optimal is quite different depending on your skiing ability (forces) and foot type.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

 

I wonder if there is any correlation between high arches and racer performance today.

 

 

You betcha !!!! That's The long sought reason why I'm not on the WC circuit !!!! Oh, man... so do I need some kind of plastic arch surgery for this??? Would high-heels give better results ??

 

:dunno 

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