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Eversion of the foot in ski boots

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 

eversion

[ivur′zhən]
a turning outward or inside out, such as a turning of the foot outward at the ankle.
enlarge picture
Eversion and inversion of the foot
Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 9th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.

eversion

Orthopedics Movement on the frontal plane in which the plantar aspect of the foot is tilted away from the midline; the axis lies on the sagittal and transverse planes

 

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Dealing with this on the mountain by an instructor, to help a student ski properly and/or to ski without pain is has been done in many ways. I'll mention a couple things that worked for me.

 

let's say an upper level is having trouble getting rid of an outer edge or making use of her/his inside edge. It shows up more on steeper terrain or you see only one edge in the tracks when there should be two. I've put a Ski Area map folded as necessary placed under the outside/inside edge of the boot between the boot and the binding or between the lateral/outside of the leg just inside the boot, between the boot cuff and the calf, to see what works. The wedge of paper is place according to the complaint~that is the rolling of the foot to the inside or the outside, what will get the ski flat when standing in an athletic stance.

 

Once the ski is flat, while standing on flat terrain, the skier most often is rid of that problem, a boot fitter can make a permanent fix.

 

I saw this problem described in a thread and had no way or replying to it. So~the posting of this thread. I hope I have described this clearly.

 

Richard

post #2 of 22

OK,  You have my attention.

 

But could you describe the "treatment" more clearly (for me)  "Unidirectional" cause effect and remedy, would help.

 

Let me explain myself. 

 

I "feel" that my right foot is rolling outward at the ankle when in a "left turn" side slip.  That is,  my right leg is the down hill support.

"Right turn" side slips are completely stable, without the sensation of rolling the ankle within the boot.

 

I do not notice any difference when "just skiing", but perhaps an objective eye would detect the weakness.

 

This "symptom" is over at least a dozen year, three different ski boots, many many pairs of skis (without any "RH, LH bias)

(Custom foot beds, GMOL) 

 

My latest effort was to put a 1/8th inch  heel wedge between the foot board and the liner, with the thicker section under the outside of the right heal.  I don't really feel it. Perhaps not the right thing.

 

I've played with cuff adjustment,  but have not hit on a solution.

 

NB  Sideslips under load are part of hauling sleds.  Presently the accommodation is to carry more weight on the inside (left) leg.

 

I guess my confusion comes from the option to "tip the ski" to lessen the edging and get the leg and ankle bones lined up,  or support the foot so that rolling will not happen.

 

Suggestions welcome.  I'm open to understanding the issue.

 

And yes,  "An alignment specialist" would be a great idea.  Haven't run into that person yet.

post #3 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post
 

OK,  You have my attention.

 

But could you describe the "treatment" more clearly (for me)  "Unidirectional" cause effect and remedy, would help.

 

Let me explain myself. 

 

I "feel" that my right foot is rolling outward at the ankle when in a "left turn" side slip.  That is,  my right leg is the down hill support.

"Right turn" side slips are completely stable, without the sensation of rolling the ankle within the boot.

 

I do not notice any difference when "just skiing", but perhaps an objective eye would detect the weakness.

 

This "symptom" is over at least a dozen year, three different ski boots, many many pairs of skis (without any "RH, LH bias)

(Custom foot beds, GMOL) 

 

My latest effort was to put a 1/8th inch  heel wedge between the foot board and the liner, with the thicker section under the outside of the right heal.  I don't really feel it. Perhaps not the right thing.

 

I've played with cuff adjustment,  but have not hit on a solution.

 

NB  Sideslips under load are part of hauling sleds.  Presently the accommodation is to carry more weight on the inside (left) leg.

 

I guess my confusion comes from the option to "tip the ski" to lessen the edging and get the leg and ankle bones lined up,  or support the foot so that rolling will not happen.

 

Suggestions welcome.  I'm open to understanding the issue.

 

And yes,  "An alignment specialist" would be a great idea.  Haven't run into that person yet.

Does you right ski chatter on ice?

Have you played around with strips under the boot? e.g. duct tape or pieces of old credit cards? 

If not, try some on the LTE of your right boot.

post #4 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Does you right ski chatter on ice?

 

What does outside ski chatter indicate?

post #5 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

What does outside ski chatter indicate?

It can be an indicator that your boots are over-edged. It can also be technique flaws and edge-tuning.

post #6 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

It can be an indicator that your boots are over-edged. It can also be technique flaws and edge-tuning.

 

Lots of options. However, he had the same problem with all his boots. So its not the boots. Must be an alignment or a technique issue. Or?

post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post
 

OK,  You have my attention.

 

But could you describe the "treatment" more clearly (for me)  "Unidirectional" cause effect and remedy, would help.

 

Let me explain myself. 

 

I "feel" that my right foot is rolling outward at the ankle when in a "left turn" side slip.  That is,  my right leg is the down hill support.

"Right turn" side slips are completely stable, without the sensation of rolling the ankle within the boot.

 

I do not notice any difference when "just skiing", but perhaps an objective eye would detect the weakness.

 

This "symptom" is over at least a dozen year, three different ski boots, many many pairs of skis (without any "RH, LH bias)

(Custom foot beds, GMOL) 

 

My latest effort was to put a 1/8th inch  heel wedge between the foot board and the liner, with the thicker section under the outside of the right heal.  I don't really feel it. Perhaps not the right thing.

 

I've played with cuff adjustment,  but have not hit on a solution.

 

NB  Sideslips under load are part of hauling sleds.  Presently the accommodation is to carry more weight on the inside (left) leg.

 

I guess my confusion comes from the option to "tip the ski" to lessen the edging and get the leg and ankle bones lined up,  or support the foot so that rolling will not happen.

 

Suggestions welcome.  I'm open to understanding the issue.

 

And yes,  "An alignment specialist" would be a great idea.  Haven't run into that person yet.

 

Can you feel any significant difference in your left and right ankle mobility and range of motion?

post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Lots of options. However, he had the same problem with all his boots. So its not the boots. Must be an alignment or a technique issue. Or?

Not sure I'm getting you -alignment is done to the boots! Alignment is not done to correct a boot issue, it is done to correct or compensate for a biomechanical issue. Boot fitting though is another thing.

post #9 of 22
See Sean Warman's foot movement stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgjxCgZowqI
post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post

OK,  You have my attention.

But could you describe the "treatment" more clearly (for me)  "Unidirectional" cause effect and remedy, would help.

Let me explain myself. 

I "feel" that my right foot is rolling outward at the ankle when in a "left turn" side slip.  That is,  my right leg is the down hill support.
"Right turn" side slips are completely stable, without the sensation of rolling the ankle within the boot.

I do not notice any difference when "just skiing", but perhaps an objective eye would detect the weakness.

This "symptom" is over at least a dozen year, three different ski boots, many many pairs of skis (without any "RH, LH bias)
(Custom foot beds, GMOL) 

My latest effort was to put a 1/8th inch  heel wedge between the foot board and the liner, with the thicker section under the outside of the right heal.  I don't really feel it. Perhaps not the right thing.

I've played with cuff adjustment,  but have not hit on a solution.

NB  Sideslips under load are part of hauling sleds.  Presently the accommodation is to carry more weight on the inside (left) leg.

I guess my confusion comes from the option to "tip the ski" to lessen the edging and get the leg and ankle bones lined up,  or support the foot so that rolling will not happen.

Suggestions welcome.  I'm open to understanding the issue.

And yes,  "An alignment specialist" would be a great idea.  Haven't run into that person yet.

I'm curious - what boots have you been in - what flex and last (width)?
If it isn't an alignment issue, I would look at size and flex. I get that feeling in boots that are too wide and soft (my left foot and ankle are smaller than my right). Just a thought.
post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

What does outside ski chatter indicate?

It can be an indicator that your boots are over-edged. It can also be technique flaws and edge-tuning.

 

Too sharp ?


Edited by razie - 2/19/16 at 11:43am
post #12 of 22

Ankles seem pretty much equal in motion and flexibility.

Pretty "normal feet",  good flex in all the joints,  no history of injury.

 

I like soft boots, but also ski Head World Cup.  It's a good boot and fit's like a glove.

My "daily foot wear" is fitted to take up extra room in the ankles by gluing in leather and cork pads to the inside of the shell.  then custom shaping the pads with pencil grinder, files and sand paper.  There is comfortable contact  on either side of the A. tendon just as the heel swells.  So,  "looseness" is not something that is going un-noticed.

post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Not sure I'm getting you -alignment is done to the boots! Alignment is not done to correct a boot issue, it is done to correct or compensate for a biomechanical issue. Boot fitting though is another thing.

 

No, but alignment is done to correct an alignment issue. Sounds strange but I was just thinking that if the boots are being fitted for a snug fit and everything seems well and swell then it might indeed be an alignment issue which is in fact done to the boots to compensate for the alignment glitches reining from the skier himself. He had the same issues with all the boots.

post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post
 

Ankles seem pretty much equal in motion and flexibility.

Pretty "normal feet",  good flex in all the joints,  no history of injury.

 

I like soft boots, but also ski Head World Cup.  It's a good boot and fit's like a glove.

My "daily foot wear" is fitted to take up extra room in the ankles by gluing in leather and cork pads to the inside of the shell.  then custom shaping the pads with pencil grinder, files and sand paper.  There is comfortable contact  on either side of the A. tendon just as the heel swells.  So,  "looseness" is not something that is going un-noticed.

 

A video would be helpful.

 

T

post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Not sure I'm getting you -alignment is done to the boots! Alignment is not done to correct a boot issue, it is done to correct or compensate for a biomechanical issue. Boot fitting though is another thing.

 

No, but alignment is done to correct an alignment issue. Sounds strange but I was just thinking that if the boots are being fitted for a snug fit and everything seems well and swell then it might indeed be an alignment issue which is in fact done to the boots to compensate for the alignment glitches reining from the skier himself. He had the same issues with all the boots.


That's right - alignment messes with the boots (cuff, canting etc) to compensate for a biomechanical issue... so that the result is a flat ski in a normal stance.

post #16 of 22
Yep, for your entire life you have been misaligned. I'm surprised you don't fall on your face walking into the grocery store! Now, get an orthotic, cant your soles, adjust the cuff and...haha, just kidding.
Can you tell I'm really on the fence about the time, money and frustration with this stuff?

Edit: hook me up with a free MRI, the best foot doctor, a top-notch rolfer, a regular pt/massage/trainer and a footbed made of anti-gravity material.
Edited by Tip Ripply - 2/19/16 at 6:35pm
post #17 of 22

Observation:

 

Sitting here at the desk (with the hockey game on the TV across the room ;-)

It is MUCH easier to roll the ankles outward than inward. 

 

That is,  the same amount of "effort" to roll the ankles results in a much larger angle of the foot relative to the floor.

In fact,  It is difficult to roll the ankles/feet inwards much at all.  Certainly not enough to talk about.

 

It's all Supine...........

post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post

Observation:

Sitting here at the desk (with the hockey game on the TV across the room ;-)
It is MUCH easier to roll the ankles outward than inward. 

That is,  the same amount of "effort" to roll the ankles results in a much larger angle of the foot relative to the floor.
In fact,  It is difficult to roll the ankles/feet inwards much at all.  Certainly not enough to talk about.

It's all Supine...........
Supine camp! Spines are so yesterday.
post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post
 

Observation:

 

Sitting here at the desk (with the hockey game on the TV across the room ;-)

It is MUCH easier to roll the ankles outward than inward. 

 

That is,  the same amount of "effort" to roll the ankles results in a much larger angle of the foot relative to the floor.

In fact,  It is difficult to roll the ankles/feet inwards much at all.  Certainly not enough to talk about.

 

It's all Supine...........

Inversion range of motion is normally larger than eversion ROM, but if you can hardly evert your foot at all you will have a seriously difficult time to ski with your feet, which is perhaps the most important part of good technique.

 

If you are serious about your skiing you need to do something about that. Here are some starting points:

 

EDIT: these links used to be free but I noticed some of them redirect to a pay version now. There should be lots of free material around if you search though.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha6ZxfG6Tz8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUHEVWtBlac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h8uxhXhozY

 

http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/03/f...ree-your-mind/
http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/03/a...-miller-style/
http://www.mobilitywod.com/2011/07/e...and-your-feet/

post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post
 

Observation:

 

Sitting here at the desk (with the hockey game on the TV across the room ;-)

It is MUCH easier to roll the ankles outward than inward. 

 

That is,  the same amount of "effort" to roll the ankles results in a much larger angle of the foot relative to the floor.

In fact,  It is difficult to roll the ankles/feet inwards much at all.  Certainly not enough to talk about.

 

It's all Supine...........

 

Interesting. I had the exact same experience. So I did a little study and experimented. In fact if I only limit the tipping to my foot and keep my shin bone in place the ROM in my ankle is about the same both inwards and outwards. However, when trying to tip my whole leg by starting at the feet there is substantial difference in tipping ROM inwards vs outwards. To reverse this sensation, point your knee outwards as far as it goes, in my case about 45deg, and try to tip your leg by tipping your foot first. See how easy it is to tip inwards. This is the reason tipping outwards is easier when you ski. Because your legs point straight forwards. Its all about how your femurs rotates in your hip sockets. Tipping your feet inside your boots is all about how much rotational ROM you have at your ankle and your hip sockets. Note that when you tip your feet you also "tilt" your lower leg. You cant tip your feet or tilt your lower leg if you have completely straight extended legs. You can only tip your feet if you bend at the knees and let your lower leg tilt. IMHO offcourse :).

post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

What does outside ski chatter indicate?

Research wobbly knee syndrome, Witherell.  If you are over edged/canted  the ski will try to turn more rapidly than the balance will accommodate.  What happens is that the skier will release the edge but then realize that the edge is not where they want it and tip it back only to realize that the ski is trying to turn faster than the balance will accommodate.    The frequency of the wobble is probably on the order of 2-3 cycles per second.  You can spot this on the slopes in some skiers that are overedged and is most visible on hard snow.   YM

post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

. Note that when you tip your feet you also "tilt" your lower leg. You cant tip your feet or tilt your lower leg if you have completely straight extended legs. You can only tip your feet if you bend at the knees and let your lower leg tilt. IMHO offcourse :).

Ah one of the secrets.  Flex to tip and flex to release.   YM

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