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Can one feel if edges need to be sharpenned? - Page 2

post #31 of 59
100 grit is a very aggressive diamond stone; you certainly can take edge off. But not as much as a file. What we are trying to tell you is that it is probable you do not need to file each time. Unless I have burr, I usually touch the side edges every other time out sarting with 400 grit and going finer, followed by ceramic. Viola! Continually sharp edges, and lots of life left. (This assumes a 3 degree side edge also.)
post #32 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

I am so confused. If you're just using your 100 grit diamond stones, you're taking virtually no edge off. So how could anyone ever use up all the side edge material? (I'm totally willing to swap out my file for a 100 grit stone; I really don't like filing; files seem way fussier than a stone)


Give it a try.  You have nothing to loose.  Make many strokes and keep it wet!

post #33 of 59

If yer hittin' rocks, use yer file. If snow only use yer diamonds.

post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post
 

If yer hittin' rocks, use yer file. If snow only use yer diamonds.


You will ruin you file on rock hits.  You must stone the rock hits out first before you file.

post #35 of 59

Stone hits ruin files.

 

Stones take stones! 

 

J has it!  In fact,  Fischer ski edges take stones ;-)

post #36 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


You will ruin you file on rock hits.  You must stone the rock hits out first before you file.

 

...but why would you file if you can use a 100 grit stone? 

post #37 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


You will ruin you file on rock hits.  You must stone the rock hits out first before you file.

 

...but why would you file if you can use a 100 grit stone? 


Because sometimes it's needed.  An edge in good condition can be maintained with stones.

post #38 of 59
I mostly use stones, but fall back on the file when they don't seem to get the edges sharp. I think that happens when they get dull enough that more material needs to be removed than a stone will take off in a finite amount of time. If I am skiing weekends at home, I do a quick stone tune every week. I usually do it once in the middle of an away trip. The file option happens a couple of times a season.

But disclaimer, I am not racing. I just want to be able to handle "eastern hardpack" with occaisional patches of real ice. And out West I want to be able to laugh when people say "it's so icy today."
post #39 of 59
\Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Because sometimes it's needed.  An edge in good condition can be maintained with stones.

OK, but when is a filing needed rather than a stoning? 

post #40 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 
\Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Because sometimes it's needed.  An edge in good condition can be maintained with stones.

OK, but when is a filing needed rather than a stoning? 


When the edges are all messed up.

post #41 of 59

When sliding across rocks the friction builds heat which case hardens the edge. File will skip with unique sound and lost friction. Diamonds will remove hardened area and file will go quiet.

 

From Wikipedia...Case-hardening or surface hardening is the process of hardening the surface of a metal object while allowing the metal deeper underneath to remain soft, thus forming a thin layer of harder metal (called the "case") at the surface.


Edited by Snowfan - 2/22/16 at 7:28am
post #42 of 59

Just want to say I am learning a lot from this thread.  Thanks for the info on when to use stone and when to use files.

post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post
 

When sliding across rocks the friction builds heat which case hardens the edge. File will skip with unique sound and lost friction. Diamonds will remove hardened area and file will go quiet.

Yeah, I always do a quick pass with a coarse stone first, and feel/listen for any problem spots.

I actually use a Harbor Freight whetstone for that and save the diamonds for finishing.

post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

OK, but when is a filing needed rather than a stoning? 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


When the edges are all messed up.

And, you'll find that your diamond files will last MUCH longer if you use an actual file on damaged areas.  When I hear of people replacing their diamond stones/files ever season because they're worn out, it's because they are using them incorrectly and or for the wrong job.  Same is true with files, worse the damage, the more aggressive file I use.  If you've got a nasty rock rashed edge that needs to be cleaned up, don't use your finish file or it'll just kill the life of the file.  A lot of people freak out at the thought of using a panzer file because they think it's such an aggressive file with those big burly teeth.  Well, it is and it does but used properly and it can be your best friend, too.  Like most things ski tuning/waxing related, there is no one size fits all.  Use the right tool for the right job and not only will your tools last longer but you'll get much better results as well.

post #45 of 59

I use stones regularly to resharpen the edges. This works because they are in good shape and I have just dulled the very tip of the edge from skiing. I don't need to remove a lot of material to get the sharp tip back.  If the edge gets dulled way past the tip from lack of attention, or from rock hits, then you have use the file, which takes off more material and you will get back to a sharp tip. You actually get much bigger hanging burs with a file, but lets not get too complex for now.

 

How do you know when you need to use the file?  When the edges look very rough from rocks, time to file. If you aren't getting the same sharpness from the stones (this is a feel thing from skiing them a lot), its time to use the file.  Maybe a rule of thumb is 5 or stoneings and than a file, repeat cycle for the life of the ski. I just keep stoning them sharp until I say, they don't feel real sharp anymore, lets give em a pass with the file. There is no exact science here. Less filing equals longer ski life.

post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

I am so confused. If you're just using your 100 grit diamond stones, you're taking virtually no edge off. So how could anyone ever use up all the side edge material? (I'm totally willing to swap out my file for a 100 grit stone; I really don't like filing; files seem way fussier than a stone)

I only use a 100 on the side edges after a stone grind (or some fairly bad damage or to remove an case hardened spots before filing caused  by skiing impacts)  and then only after I have set the side edge to 1 degree more than my final edge angle

 

So  A couple of passes with a short panzar at 1 degree over my final edge angle

 

then a pass with the 100 diamond

 

Then  a short 13 TPC at final edge angle. 

 

A couple passes with a 2nd cut or 15 TPC file

 

Then 100, 200, 400, 600,  Moonflex Diamond Stones

 

Then highly polish with a Transulcent Surgical stone!

 

Then remove hanging burr with a arkansas or similar stone

 

Then Blue Hard Gummi on the edge point at a 45 degree angle with absolutely no pressure!

post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

OK, but when is a filing needed rather than a stoning? 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


When the edges are all messed up.

And, you'll find that your diamond files will last MUCH longer if you use an actual file on damaged areas.  When I hear of people replacing their diamond stones/files ever season because they're worn out, it's because they are using them incorrectly and or for the wrong job.  Same is true with files, worse the damage, the more aggressive file I use.  If you've got a nasty rock rashed edge that needs to be cleaned up, don't use your finish file or it'll just kill the life of the file.  A lot of people freak out at the thought of using a panzer file because they think it's such an aggressive file with those big burly teeth.  Well, it is and it does but used properly and it can be your best friend, too.  Like most things ski tuning/waxing related, there is no one size fits all.  Use the right tool for the right job and not only will your tools last longer but you'll get much better results as well.


Yes you can.  More than one way to skin a cat.  Diamond stones go real fast if using too much pressure over damaged areas which for some skis can be the whole length!

post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post
 

I use stones regularly to resharpen the edges. This works because they are in good shape and I have just dulled the very tip of the edge from skiing. I don't need to remove a lot of material to get the sharp tip back.  If the edge gets dulled way past the tip from lack of attention, or from rock hits, then you have use the file, which takes off more material and you will get back to a sharp tip. You actually get much bigger hanging burs with a file, but lets not get too complex for now.

 

How do you know when you need to use the file?  When the edges look very rough from rocks, time to file. If you aren't getting the same sharpness from the stones (this is a feel thing from skiing them a lot), its time to use the file.  Maybe a rule of thumb is 5 or stoneings and than a file, repeat cycle for the life of the ski. I just keep stoning them sharp until I say, they don't feel real sharp anymore, lets give em a pass with the file. There is no exact science here. Less filing equals longer ski life.


I can't argue with this above.

post #49 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

I am so confused. If you're just using your 100 grit diamond stones, you're taking virtually no edge off. So how could anyone ever use up all the side edge material? (I'm totally willing to swap out my file for a 100 grit stone; I really don't like filing; files seem way fussier than a stone)

I only use a 100 on the side edges after a stone grind (or some fairly bad damage or to remove an case hardened spots before filing caused  by skiing impacts)  and then only after I have set the side edge to 1 degree more than my final edge angle

 

So  A couple of passes with a short panzar at 1 degree over my final edge angle

 

then a pass with the 100 diamond

 

Then  a short 13 TPC at final edge angle. 

 

A couple passes with a 2nd cut or 15 TPC file

 

Then 100, 200, 400, 600,  Moonflex Diamond Stones

 

Then highly polish with a Transulcent Surgical stone!

 

Then remove hanging burr with a arkansas or similar stone

 

Then Blue Hard Gummi on the edge point at a 45 degree angle with absolutely no pressure!


Good progression and plan.  Sounds good to me too.

post #50 of 59
OK, so for a standard ski day on eastern ice that causes major burring but no rock hits, you'll just use a 100-200-400-600 etc progression? No file?

With the arkansas stone, you wouldn't run it along the side edge to hone it? What is the purpose of the arkansas stone? (I don't have a surgical stone and thought the arkansas stone was supposed to polish/hone)

To remove the hanging burr at the end, am I OK to take a medium stone nearly flat along the base with minimal pressure?

(Just when i think I've figured out tuning, i discover I've got it all wrong)
post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Just want to say I am learning a lot from this thread.  Thanks for the info on when to use stone and when to use files.
I agree. These guys are great.
post #52 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Just want to say I am learning a lot from this thread.  Thanks for the info on when to use stone and when to use files.
I agree. These guys are great.

Same here, not only from my initial question(s), but additional add on tips, ideas, etc. thanks much.

So after reading posts here and watching videos from shops, manufactures etc on tuning skis i have noticed that when sharpenning the edges some will to it tip to tail, but others will just go back and fourth, and advise to one way or the other, or doesnt matter.

Does it make a difference if you only do tip toeing tail, or go back and fourth, or do cominiation (x # of back and forth, followed by x # tip to tail).

Also, if doing a progesson of grit #, will doing say back and forth with say 200, but subsequently tip to tail with 400 and beyond as an example or something of that nature, throw a file in for good measure, etc.

Thanks
post #53 of 59
Stones either/both directions. Files the direction they cut only.
post #54 of 59

As Jacques likes to say, "sharp is sharp", so if you're getting the edge sharp with diamond files there's no need to use a true file.  Only time I use an actual file is when I have damage on a side edge that requires the use of a file or I simply can't get the edge as sharp as I'd like with diamond files/stones.  As for how many passes you make with each diamond file/stone, there isn't a set number, I just work the edge with the diamond file/stone until it feels smooth as I'm working the edge then I move to the next finer grit and do the same thing throughout the progression of grits.  Go at a slow steady pace working the edge back and forth as you progress down the length of the ski and you'll feel it go from being a little gravely to smooth, then move to the next finer grit tool.

post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwestfabs View Post


Same here, not only from my initial question(s), but additional add on tips, ideas, etc. thanks much.

So after reading posts here and watching videos from shops, manufactures etc on tuning skis i have noticed that when sharpenning the edges some will to it tip to tail, but others will just go back and fourth, and advise to one way or the other, or doesnt matter.

Does it make a difference if you only do tip toeing tail, or go back and fourth, or do cominiation (x # of back and forth, followed by x # tip to tail).

Also, if doing a progesson of grit #, will doing say back and forth with say 200, but subsequently tip to tail with 400 and beyond as an example or something of that nature, throw a file in for good measure, etc.

Thanks

 

When I use a file I go tip to tail. When using stones I closely listen to the sound it makes and usually hear spots that need an extra pass or two and go back and forth, adjusting the stone often to get use from entire surface. Keep the stone rinsed and lubed. I use Moonflex stones in an SVST dedicated guide.  I lightly pressure the stone against the edge...very light but firm enough to maintain proper contact.

 

200, 400, 600 is all I do. Works for me. Your original question was something like "can you tell when your edges need sharpening?"  Look at it this way...as you ski on a fresh tune, both edge and wax, it sloooowly deteriorates in performance. Lap after lap the wax and edge wear down. Not easy to determine how much either has fallen off until after tuning again...thats when you feel the difference.  For me it is nearly every day that I touch with a stone and fresh wax and I can easily feel the difference.

 

You are embracing geek-level tuning. :) For an added kick, swap your skis L and R after lunch if you can. It will feel like you have a new edge tune.

 

One other thing...If you are not carving some of your turns none of this matters. And, be sure your sidewall is not interfering with your edge work.

 

 

post #56 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 
I am so confused. If you're just using your 100 grit diamond stones, you're taking virtually no edge off. So how could anyone ever use up all the side edge material? (I'm totally willing to swap out my file for a 100 grit stone; I really don't like filing; files seem way fussier than a stone)
I only use a 100 on the side edges after a stone grind (or some fairly bad damage or to remove an case hardened spots before filing caused  by skiing impacts)  and then only after I have set the side edge to 1 degree more than my final edge angle

So  A couple of passes with a short panzar at 1 degree over my final edge angle

then a pass with the 100 diamond

Then  a short 13 TPC at final edge angle. 

A couple passes with a 2nd cut or 15 TPC file

Then 100, 200, 400, 600,  Moonflex Diamond Stones

Then highly polish with a Transulcent Surgical stone!

Then remove hanging burr with a arkansas or similar stone

Then Blue Hard Gummi on the edge point at a 45 degree angle with absolutely no pressure!

I do basically the same thing as Atomicman.

Metaphor,

If you back-file as Atomicman has described I think you will see better success maintaining with stones day to day and not see a need to file as frequently.

Also, the step he starts with - using a 100 stone to remove burrs and hardened edge areas - is imperative to ensure your files do not get destroyed. [edit] To add I reserve an old 100 stone for this task.

On all my skis I back file to 4* to set the angle/geometry then I will polish that edge with 100 & 200.

After that I use the stones to polish/sharpen at 3* 100 - 1500 moonflex.

Then maintain that daily with the stone progression of 100 - 1500 moonflex.

Better stones on my SL skis.

Remove the burr with an arkansas style stone.

[Delta] What I do not do is the 45* gummi stone.
post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

OK, so for a standard ski day on eastern ice that causes major burring but no rock hits, you'll just use a 100-200-400-600 etc progression? No file?

With the arkansas stone, you wouldn't run it along the side edge to hone it? What is the purpose of the arkansas stone? (I don't have a surgical stone and thought the arkansas stone was supposed to polish/hone)

To remove the hanging burr at the end, am I OK to take a medium stone nearly flat along the base with minimal pressure?

(Just when i think I've figured out tuning, i discover I've got it all wrong)


 The ceramic and Arkansas stones as I see it are to be used as a final polish and for burr removal, be it prior or post.  I don't see ice making a burr.  Just dulling the edge.  Rocks will create burrs and hardening.   Post tuning burr needs to be removed.  Any fine grit stone can be used.  Finer the better.
Here is a post tuning burr.  Almost looks like hairs.  Some of what you see is wax.  So much wax in a shop.

 

Here is a burr from damage.  It's huge.  As said above a panzar file in a guide may be your best first choice to remove this.  Small ones can be removed with a coarse diamond stone, but use only slight pressure and lots of fluid.  Never pressure a diamond stone too hard until it feels smooth under the stone.  Once it feels smooth under the stone make a few passes with much more pressure.  Diamond stones don't last forever no matter what.

post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwestfabs View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Just want to say I am learning a lot from this thread.  Thanks for the info on when to use stone and when to use files.
I agree. These guys are great.

Same here, not only from my initial question(s), but additional add on tips, ideas, etc. thanks much.

So after reading posts here and watching videos from shops, manufactures etc on tuning skis i have noticed that when sharpenning the edges some will to it tip to tail, but others will just go back and fourth, and advise to one way or the other, or doesnt matter.

Does it make a difference if you only do tip toeing tail, or go back and fourth, or do cominiation (x # of back and forth, followed by x # tip to tail).

Also, if doing a progesson of grit #, will doing say back and forth with say 200, but subsequently tip to tail with 400 and beyond as an example or something of that nature, throw a file in for good measure, etc.

Thanks


With a file do not do as seen in some videos and hold pressure on the back stroke.  Lift the file then.  Files are one direction only.  Don't matter tip to tail or tail to tip.  Nature of the beast is one side one way, other side the other way. 

All diamond and other stones can be stroked both ways. 

post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwestfabs View Post


Same here, not only from my initial question(s), but additional add on tips, ideas, etc. thanks much.

So after reading posts here and watching videos from shops, manufactures etc on tuning skis i have noticed that when sharpenning the edges some will to it tip to tail, but others will just go back and fourth, and advise to one way or the other, or doesnt matter.

Does it make a difference if you only do tip toeing tail, or go back and fourth, or do cominiation (x # of back and forth, followed by x # tip to tail).

Also, if doing a progesson of grit #, will doing say back and forth with say 200, but subsequently tip to tail with 400 and beyond as an example or something of that nature, throw a file in for good measure, etc.

Thanks

 

When I use a file I go tip to tail. When using stones I closely listen to the sound it makes and usually hear spots that need an extra pass or two and go back and forth, adjusting the stone often to get use from entire surface. Keep the stone rinsed and lubed. I use Moonflex stones in an SVST dedicated guide.  I lightly pressure the stone against the edge...very light but firm enough to maintain proper contact.

 

200, 400, 600 is all I do. Works for me. Your original question was something like "can you tell when your edges need sharpening?"  Look at it this way...as you ski on a fresh tune, both edge and wax, it sloooowly deteriorates in performance. Lap after lap the wax and edge wear down. Not easy to determine how much either has fallen off until after tuning again...thats when you feel the difference.  For me it is nearly every day that I touch with a stone and fresh wax and I can easily feel the difference.

 

You are embracing geek-level tuning. :)For an added kick, swap your skis L and R after lunch if you can. It will feel like you have a new edge tune.

 

One other thing...If you are not carving some of your turns none of this matters. And, be sure your sidewall is not interfering with your edge work.

 

 

Bold red above.  Unless you ski something like the Anphibio's  (sp), then it is wise to rotate your skis each time you take a break.  You do take breaks or lunch don't you?

I rotate my skis each time I stop.   A ski wears.  Keeping wear even from side to side is best.  This way the ski is wearing evenly.  Base scraping and edge work will be much better when needed.

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