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Getting feet back under you

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

How do you get your feet back under you when steepness or snow condition have put you in the back seat?  I've tried the standard options of pulling my feet back and/or moving my COM forward.  While these solutions seem straight forward, i find them difficult in practice, e.g., when i'm pushed in the backseat, pulling my feet back under my butt leaves me in a non-stacked position where i'm trying to force my knees forward to compensate.  So, i understand the goal, but i don't know how to reach it.

 

I've read some valuable related threads but haven't found the discussion that answers my question, if you know of one, please point me to it.

 

Thanks!


Edited by AverageSkier - 2/9/16 at 10:28am
post #2 of 27

Pulling your feet back in transition is one component and one that ensures the feet stay under you and that as you extend the new outside let, you will be forward. You don't need to concern with being stacked in transition.

 

The other thing is to not let them feet get too much in front through the turn... don't let them shoot too far ahead so you have to work extra hard at pulling them back like a slinky... 

 

Also, make sure you complete your turns, especially on the steeps. Don't let the skis point down the hill for an extended period of time, especially towards the end of the turn - make sure they keep turning and turn well across the hill as you start to pull the feet back, this way you will be quickly forward in the next turn.

 

Don't forget your pole plants either... especially in the steeps...

 

cheers

post #3 of 27

It sounds to me like you need to work on your core strength as well as some extra leg strength. Also, if you're exhausted the best place for you is at the bar drinking a hot apple cider.  It doesn't take much to go from exhausted to out-of-control>>> to injured. 

 

The only other advice I can offer is to take a calcium/magnesium supplement shortly before you begin skiing. While it won't help your ski technique, it will help clear the lactic acid and help your legs recover both in the short term and long term.  This product is offered commercially packaged as "Sport Legs" or you can just buy the supplement directly at your local vitamin store without the premium of the packaging/marketing.

 

Good luck.  

post #4 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

It sounds to me like you need to work on your core strength as well as some extra leg strength. Also, if you're exhausted the best place for you is at the bar drinking a hot apple cider.  It doesn't take much to go from exhausted to out-of-control>>> to injured. 

 

The only other advice I can offer is to take a calcium/magnesium supplement shortly before you begin skiing. While it won't help your ski technique, it will help clear the lactic acid and help your legs recover both in the short term and long term.  This product is offered commercially packaged as "Sport Legs" or you can just buy the supplement directly at your local vitamin store without the premium of the packaging/marketing.

 

Good luck.  

Exhaustion came on the fourth straight day of wrestling to get my feet back under me.  I'm pretty sure my physical condition is more than adequate.  I regret including exhaustion and will edit it out so this doesn't become a conditioning thread.

post #5 of 27

Sounds like you're exiting the turn with too much pressure on the tails and back of the leg - i.e. really back !!

 

Towards the end of the turn, pressure should move towards the back of the arch, but not on the heels. When you are on the heels / feel the back of the boot, you're way back, out of balance and struggling to get the skis back under you.

 

You should identify the real cause of that and there's many. More common are starting the turn back (not forward/centered), less than ideal pole plants and not completing the turns.

 

cheers

post #6 of 27

2 things....

 

 

Some of it could be subconscious. Many skiers are hesitant to take their body down the hill on stepper slopes. It is the old... trying to grab the hill behind you syndrome.  I think of it as you want your skis chasing your body down the hill not your body chasing your skis. 

 

This means to stay perpendicular to the slope or forward you have to commit down the hill....a bit of hanging your arse on the line when all your experience is telling you that is a dangerous place to be. Hence the the holding back which just exacerbates the issue , actually just the opposite of what needs to be done.

 

Remember that as the slope steepens to stay some what perpendicular to the slope you need to get a lot farther forward, that forward is your entire system, from  your ankles. 

 

#2 ....Where you plant/touch your pole is a huge deal on steeps .   The steeper the slope the more you need to reach down the slope, in fact straight downhill from your boots.  Many folks still plant up towards their tip and this not only pushes them back but requires you now continue across the hill to get around the pole touch. This draws your upper body down the hill and makes it insanely easy to stay over and out front of your skis. The skis come around and down the hill on their own.  

 

The reaching pole touch down the hill also ensures your are slightly countered and that your uphill shoulder is ahead of your downhill shoulder.  I see a lot of folks on steeper slopes shopping for a turn with their downhill pole a a feeler up  by the tip of the downhill ski which makes their downhill shoulder ahead of their uphill. How the hell are you going to turn downhill and stay on top of your skis if your upper body is turned slightly uphill!

post #7 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

2 things....

 

 

Some of it could be subconscious. Many skiers are hesitant to take their body down the hill on stepper slopes. It is the old... trying to grab the hill behind you syndrome.  I think of it as you want your skis chasing your body down the hill not your body chasing your skis. 

 

This means to stay perpendicular to the slope or forward you have to commit down the hill....a bit of hanging your arse on the line when all your experience is telling you that is a dangerous place to be. Hence the the holding back which just exacerbates the issue , actually just the opposite of what needs to be done.

 

Remember that as the slope steepens to stay some what perpendicular to the slope you need to get a lot farther forward, that forward is your entire system, from  your ankles

 

#2 ....Where you plant/touch your pole is a huge deal on steeps .   The steeper the slope the more you need to reach down the slope, in fact straight downhill from your boots.  Many folks still plant up towards their tip and this not only pushes them back but requires you now continue across the hill to get around the pole touch. This draws your upper body down the hill and makes it insanely easy to stay over and out front of your skis. The skis come around and down the hill on their own.  

 

The reaching pole touch down the hill also ensures your are slightly countered and that your uphill shoulder is ahead of your downhill shoulder.  I see a lot of folks on steeper slopes shopping for a turn with their downhill pole a a feeler up  by the tip of the downhill ski which makes their downhill shoulder ahead of their uphill. How the hell are you going to turn downhill and stay on top of your skis if your upper body is turned slightly uphill!

+1

 

I also try to as I'm starting from standstill on steeps to make sure my uphill shoulder is coming out over my downhill ski just as a check to make sure I'm truly committing my upper body

post #8 of 27
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Pulling your feet back in transition is one component and one that ensures the feet stay under you and that as you extend the new outside let, you will be forward. You don't need to concern with being stacked in transition.

 

The other thing is to not let them feet get too much in front through the turn... don't let them shoot too far ahead so you have to work extra hard at pulling them back like a slinky... 

 

Also, make sure you complete your turns, especially on the steeps. Don't let the skis point down the hill for an extended period of time, especially towards the end of the turn - make sure they keep turning and turn well across the hill as you start to pull the feet back, this way you will be quickly forward in the next turn.

 

Don't forget your pole plants either... especially in the steeps...

 

cheers

Thanks, your suggestion to pull feet back in transition makes sense to me.  It actually seems more like an opportunity to reassert your COM than pulling your feet back under.  The "pulling" part makes me think every else is static while i try to "pull" my feet back.  Probably this picture in my head is part of the problem.

post #9 of 27
Quote:

Originally Posted by AverageSkier View Post

 

Thanks, your suggestion to pull feet back in transition makes sense to me.  It actually seems more like an opportunity to reassert your COM than pulling your feet back under.  The "pulling" part makes me think every else is static while i try to "pull" my feet back.  Probably this picture in my head is part of the problem.

 

That's fair - you are pulling them back in relation to the hips, leveraging the legs and the momentum of the hips. Some think push the hips forward instead and that may work for you, although on the steeps, in transition, you're feet are light and pulling back works better than any thoughts of "pushing".

 

But yes, it is the relationship between hips and boots so as you pull back the boots, the hips become forward and across the skis, nothing should be static. And like A-man said, don't forget that pole plant down the hill. It is critical.

post #10 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GettingThere View Post
 

+1

 

I also try to as I'm starting from standstill on steeps to make sure my uphill shoulder is coming out over my downhill ski just as a check to make sure I'm truly committing my upper body

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

2 things....

 

 

Some of it could be subconscious. Many skiers are hesitant to take their body down the hill on stepper slopes. It is the old... trying to grab the hill behind you syndrome.  I think of it as you want your skis chasing your body down the hill not your body chasing your skis. 

 

This means to stay perpendicular to the slope or forward you have to commit down the hill....a bit of hanging your arse on the line when all your experience is telling you that is a dangerous place to be. Hence the the holding back which just exacerbates the issue , actually just the opposite of what needs to be done.

 

Remember that as the slope steepens to stay some what perpendicular to the slope you need to get a lot farther forward, that forward is your entire system, from  your ankles. 

 

#2 ....Where you plant/touch your pole is a huge deal on steeps .   The steeper the slope the more you need to reach down the slope, in fact straight downhill from your boots.  Many folks still plant up towards their tip and this not only pushes them back but requires you now continue across the hill to get around the pole touch. This draws your upper body down the hill and makes it insanely easy to stay over and out front of your skis. The skis come around and down the hill on their own.  

 

The reaching pole touch down the hill also ensures your are slightly countered and that your uphill shoulder is ahead of your downhill shoulder.  I see a lot of folks on steeper slopes shopping for a turn with their downhill pole a a feeler up  by the tip of the downhill ski which makes their downhill shoulder ahead of their uphill. How the hell are you going to turn downhill and stay on top of your skis if your upper body is turned slightly uphill!

I admit that good pole plants are something that i tell myself i need to work on another day.  Obviously, we're at that day.  These are both helpful.  Thanks.

 

Atomicman - Can you help me better understand the difference between "straight downhill from your boots" versus "plants up toward the tip".

post #11 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverageSkier View Post
 

 

I admit that good pole plants are something that i tell myself i need to work on another day.  Obviously, we're at that day.  These are both helpful.  Thanks.

 

Atomicman - Can you help me better understand the difference between "straight downhill from your boots" versus "plants up toward the tip".to​N

 

If your skis are across the hill, if you plant the pole right down the fall line it will be downhill from your boots and if you are "anticipated" will allow your skis to come right across without using up too much room across the hill.  If you plant the pole closer to the ski tips (more at an angle of 45%) your body will then need to get around the pole plant and will use up more real estate for turning.

post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverageSkier View Post
 

How do you get your feet back under you when steepness or snow condition have put you in the back seat?  I've tried the standard options of pulling my feet back and/or moving my COM forward.  While these solutions seem straight forward, i find them difficult in practice, e.g., when i'm pushed in the backseat, pulling my feet back under my butt leaves me in a non-stacked position where i'm trying to force my knees forward to compensate.  So, i understand the goal, but i don't know how to reach it.

 

I've read some valuable related threads but haven't found the discussion that answers my question, if you know of one, please point me to it.

 

Thanks!

 

Based on what is written above, I think the best drill solution would be to learn the dolphin turn. As soon as you master this maneuver, it will easily integrate into your regular technique, giving you more fore/aft control in steeps, bumps and beyond. This may be the most immediate relief to what ails you. Learn this drill top to bottom and you won't need to read, write or think one more word about it.

 

post #13 of 27

Turn your feet. I'm serious. If you turn your feet, your lower body slows down, but your upper body keeps moving. Sure, you can resort to muscling around, but why do that when gravity will do the hard work? If you're falling back, it's possible you're not actually turning enough. 

post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverageSkier View Post
 

How do you get your feet back under you when steepness or snow condition have put you in the back seat?  I've tried the standard options of pulling my feet back and/or moving my COM forward.  While these solutions seem straight forward, i find them difficult in practice, e.g., when i'm pushed in the backseat, pulling my feet back under my butt leaves me in a non-stacked position where i'm trying to force my knees forward to compensate.  So, i understand the goal, but i don't know how to reach it.

 

I've read some valuable related threads but haven't found the discussion that answers my question, if you know of one, please point me to it.

 

Thanks!

 

Based on what is written above, I think the best drill solution would be to learn the dolphin turn. As soon as you master this maneuver, it will easily integrate into your regular technique, giving you more fore/aft control in steeps, bumps and beyond. This may be the most immediate relief to what ails you. Learn this drill top to bottom and you won't need to read, write or think one more word about it.

 

Doing dolphin turns is an advanced exercise.  

Asking someone who gets in the back seat on steeps to do dolphin turns to correct that issue may be a bit too much.

post #15 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Doing dolphin turns is an advanced exercise.  

Asking someone who gets in the back seat on steeps to do dolphin turns to correct that issue may be a bit too much.

Thanks, but I don't see any dolphin turns in my near future:)

post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 

This conversation has been very helpful to me.  Thanks all that contributed.

post #17 of 27
Originally Posted by AverageSkier View Post
 

Thanks, but I don't see any dolphin turns in my near future:)

 

good for you! You have common sense and are a good judge of character!

 

A good student can parse out the BS 

post #18 of 27
Maybe not dolphin turns in the air, but that isn't a bad idea for bumps and jumps. You need to get your tips on the snow over the tops of bumps, a-frame features in the park and when doing dolphin turns.
post #19 of 27

Averageskier, while "they" say you can’t, I say you can. Given the obvious stance corrections and renewed focus on a forward pole plant, they do not instill dominant motor patterns. If you do in fact happen to be an average skier (terminal intermediate) but also sporting at least an average level of athleticism with average skier's age of say 30's-40"s, you can be taught the complete basic maneuver through an easy set of progression steps completed in only one session. If you can hop your skis at least 6” off the snow keeping skis relatively flat, then you are all set to learn this and many other drills with similar modified progression steps. Learning it can make any intermediate skier a much better skier in general and improving many aspects other than just the bumps. It is simply a leverage move to get your CoM forward thus allowing it to shift back and forth without any of the trouble you are experiencing. If you are not minimally athletic or coordinated or are a true beginner then the drill is not for you.

 

The dolphin turn is a movement amplification drill from which a resonating movement pattern on an individual’s regular technique will result. I am confident that the difficulty level of the dolphin turn is more a factor of general athletic coordination, strength and agility rather than ski ability. It may not often be used because it cannot be demonstrated by many coaches and instructors who have passed beyond the athletic “window”. While there may be no answer for immediate, on the fly, fore/aft correction on steeps, a new and dominant movement pattern to avoid this from happening will likely be the answer.

 

Learning to do it with more control, more consistency, longer durations and higher amplitudes can take a full season or more if you were to follow through adequately enough. Along with varying sets of drills, this is the type of season-long self managed learning process that, while somewhat onerous, will provide you, IMO, your fastest rate of development. Self learning is much easier now with a multitude of resources on the internet and video capabilities for mobile movement analysis that can reduce conventional ski instruction costs dramatically.

 

The original video I posted painted this drill as too advanced and too specialized. It’s not just for bumps but also the steeps you are having trouble with. Video below showing one of the easy progression steps using ski poles and without sliding that you can probably perform at a minimum on your first couple of tries:

 






 

 

 

 

post #20 of 27
Hey Rich,
For the record, I never said it was just for bumps. What I meant is that everyone above me in this post poo-pooed your idea, and in some cases for good reason. teaching the dolphin on a flat, green trail to a terminal intermediate may result in success, frustration or failure. 1 of 3 are not odds I want to bet on in a lesson. Starting this drill on some "terrain" (bumps) might help. That is, if you actually explain why in the hell you are making your client do dolphin turns. I would like to video a line of coaches and instructors that were given a "surprise dolphin-turn drill" in morning training. Haha
post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post

Hey Rich,
For the record, I never said it was just for bumps. What I meant is that everyone above me in this post poo-pooed your idea, and in some cases for good reason. teaching the dolphin on a flat, green trail to a terminal intermediate may result in success, frustration or failure. 1 of 3 are not odds I want to bet on in a lesson. Starting this drill on some "terrain" (bumps) might help. That is, if you actually explain why in the hell you are making your client do dolphin turns. I would like to video a line of coaches and instructors that were given a "surprise dolphin-turn drill" in morning training. Haha

No but Fellows did in the video!

post #22 of 27

If dolphin turns are a goal, flappers, transitions hops, and hopping edge changes should be used as 'intro' drills. The skier who goes straight to dolphin turns may risk setting themselves up for failure. I always wonder how many who recommend them have actually tried them... and how many can actually do them. I've only met a handful of [obviously very good] skiers who can actually perform a good demo. I think I have demos of flappers and hopping edge changes on my YouTube channel. I'll get some dolphins up this year to round out the trio. 

post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post

Hey Rich,
For the record, I never said it was just for bumps. What I meant is that everyone above me in this post poo-pooed your idea, and in some cases for good reason. teaching the dolphin on a flat, green trail to a terminal intermediate may result in success, frustration or failure. 1 of 3 are not odds I want to bet on in a lesson. Starting this drill on some "terrain" (bumps) might help. That is, if you actually explain why in the hell you are making your client do dolphin turns. I would like to video a line of coaches and instructors that were given a "surprise dolphin-turn drill" in morning training. Haha

 

Yes, I didn't think that or was responding to it either and appreciated your post. I sensed no Poo-poo from you. People that are too serious about all this like to poo-poo and that's not you. From what I read, your posts are a good balance of knowledge without the territorial death clutch on it. :)  Things like this drill in particular are a very case by case situation. It is a physically difficult drill compared to most, yet for the very same reason offers the most upon mastery. Skiing seems to be a sport, compared to most, that has a higher range of ability at the beginner level. I would never make anyone do a certain drill outside of a lesson plan designed for a whole group and only highly suggest some specific ones to certain individuals. You are right that they are actually physically easier in bumps, on steeps and while moving along than on the flats but starting there may be reserved to a step up in ability. While I believe it is possible for advanced skiers to reach refined levels of many aspects of their technique without being very athletic, you won't reach them all without it. "the surprise morning dolphin drill" ... funny

post #24 of 27
Haha, all good.
post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

If dolphin turns are a goal, flappers, transitions hops, and hopping edge changes should be used as 'intro' drills. The skier who goes straight to dolphin turns may risk setting themselves up for failure. I always wonder how many who recommend them have actually tried them... and how many can actually do them. I've only met a handful of [obviously very good] skiers who can actually perform a good demo. I think I have demos of flappers and hopping edge changes on my YouTube channel. I'll get some dolphins up this year to round out the trio. 

 

Yes, flappers is a good example of one of the modified progressions as well as a video I wanted to post but that's all from the "other" side of evil and don't wish to disturb the ski forum gods.

 

That would be great to see your dolphin turn vid if you do one.  Drill usage will be a huge value along with vid MA's and a multitude of ever expanding online resources for all the self learners out there trying to avoid highway robbery. I don't care who you are ... no one's mouth is going to serve up 900 bucks worth of slopeside intellectual property in just one day. That is merely the purchase price of social status exclusivity with a lesson, trail map and restaurant recommendations attached to it. On the other side of the fence, 900 bucks is a full season of race coaching.

post #26 of 27
Thread Starter 

I skied yesterday and practiced making small turns on fairly steep, mostly icy snow using a good reaching below my foot pole plant.  Atomicman was right that it makes a huge difference, so much more effective than my usual feigned pole plant.  And...reaching down the hill is fun! 

post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverageSkier View Post

I skied yesterday and practiced making small turns on fairly steep, mostly icy snow using a good reaching below my foot pole plant.  Atomicman was right that it makes a huge difference, so much more effective than my usual feigned pole plant.  And...reaching down the hill is fun! 
Awesome!
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