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Why are ski boots so low on the leg???????

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

I am tired of breaking fibulas. Why don't ski boots go up higher on the leg to just below the knee (like mx boots) with stiffness tapering out so the lateral loads are spread out on the leg and not concentrated 8" above the ankle. Is there a reason ski boots are low? I am thinking about going into production with my idea. Sure, the boots would be larger to transport and more expensive but it will save your leg! 

post #2 of 25

I have to wonder if your DIN is set to high or do you have abnormally long lower legs ?

 

I have a buddy who has a long fibulas, some chairs he can't put his skis on the lower bar because the tops of his knees hit the cross bar.

post #3 of 25

If you're continually breaking your leg, your DIN is set too high. Making the boot cuff higher will just move the point where the injury occurs. And as much a fib or tib/fib break sucks, it's way better than shredding your knee instead. A lot of people never recover from that. 

post #4 of 25


Hello? 1985, is that you?

post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

I have to wonder if your DIN is set to high or do you have abnormally long lower legs ?

 

I have a buddy who has a long fibulas, some chairs he can't put his skis on the lower bar because the tops of his knees hit the cross bar.

i have it set super low. 9 or 10 for heli drop skiing

post #6 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

If you're continually breaking your leg, your DIN is set too high. Making the boot cuff higher will just move the point where the injury occurs. And as much a fib or tib/fib break sucks, it's way better than shredding your knee instead. A lot of people never recover from that. 

the boot cuff would be higher but like i said, the stiffness would taper out so there would be no stress concentration at any given point. 

integrated knee brace possible....

post #7 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OnSnow View Post
 


Hello? 1985, is that you?

did they used to make higher boots? 85 was before my time

post #8 of 25

This was tried by boot manufactures in the late 70s, early 80s.  The reasons for not producing knee high boots are obvious and include (a) weight, (b) more expensive to manufacture and ship, (c) difficult to get on and off, (d) difficult to walk on in the car park and (e) 95% of skiers do not have a problem with current boot design.

post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaportech View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

If you're continually breaking your leg, your DIN is set too high. Making the boot cuff higher will just move the point where the injury occurs. And as much a fib or tib/fib break sucks, it's way better than shredding your knee instead. A lot of people never recover from that. 

the boot cuff would be higher but like i said, the stiffness would taper out so there would be no stress concentration at any given point. 

 

Yeah, Dolomite and Nordica and Hanson and Alpina tried that... in 1981.        Google Nordica Polaris,  Dolomite Secret Weapon, Dolomite Superlite,  Hanson Alto...

 

Your argument here reads almost word for word like Dolomite adverts:

 

 

Hey, market what you like, just don't forget to provide different forward lean in each of four or five calf sizes in each of your boot sizes.

post #10 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe strummer View Post
 

This was tried by boot manufactures in the late 70s, early 80s.  The reasons for not producing knee high boots are obvious and include (a) weight, (b) more expensive to manufacture and ship, (c) difficult to get on and off, (d) difficult to walk on in the car park and (e) 95% of skiers do not have a problem with current boot design.


Was it that early? I couldn't really remember, but yes Vaportech, it has been done before. As I recall, another of the reasons given for dropping the concept was advances in polymer tech. Leverage was the reason I remember for the concept and the new polymers gave manufacturers the ability to achieve the same result without the negatives.

post #11 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post


 

 

I need some of those! and a neon jacket to match

post #12 of 25
post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 

Wow awesome read. Thanks. So they died out because of fashion and tradition enforcing? That is no good reason! Most all pants would fit over them these days and there are very few ski-snobs left. 

post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post

 

 

I have a buddy who has a long fibulas, some chairs he can't put his skis on the lower bar because the tops of his knees hit the cross bar.

 

Happens to me all the time.  When you're 6'5", alot of stuff doesn't fit.  It's not that my fibulas are abnormally long, it's all proportional.  Everything is proportional.:rolleyes

post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaportech View Post
 

Wow awesome read. Thanks. So they died out because of fashion and tradition enforcing? That is no good reason! Most all pants would fit over them these days and there are very few ski-snobs left. 

 

Yeah, but...in the meantime the industry has shifted to 4-buckle overlap shells instead of cabrio shells - and getting your foot into an overlap shell that tall is going to be a nightmare, even if you pull stunts like extra heel rotation room (Dodge boots) or heel slides (Fischer F9000/Soma).      

My point here is - those were the reasons then, you're going to have to think through what the reasons might be now.

post #16 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDog View Post
 

 

Happens to me all the time.  When you're 6'5", alot of stuff doesn't fit.  It's not that my fibulas are abnormally long, it's all proportional.  Everything is proportional.:rolleyes

6'5" here as well

post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDog View Post
 

 

Happens to me all the time.  When you're 6'5", alot of stuff doesn't fit.  It's not that my fibulas are abnormally long, it's all proportional.  Everything is proportional.:rolleyes


LOL your funny...:) I get it...

post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaportech View Post
 

I am tired of breaking fibulas. Why don't ski boots go up higher on the leg to just below the knee (like mx boots) with stiffness tapering out so the lateral loads are spread out on the leg and not concentrated 8" above the ankle. Is there a reason ski boots are low? I am thinking about going into production with my idea. Sure, the boots would be larger to transport and more expensive but it will save your leg! 


OK, first, a higher boot might save your fibula, but it would destroy your knees even more effectively. Just like current boots, which are higher than old leather boots, transferred risk from the ankle to the tibia and fibula. All biomechanics, y'see. The ad you show conveniently ignores this. Force has to go somewhere, and the top of the boot effectively creates a lever. Put another way, the ad's assumption that force is "spread" over the entire front of the boot is questionable even for leaning forward, and is flat wrong for high risk falls that result in spiral fractures, for instance. OTOH, personally, I'd rather have a broken bone than a torn up knee. The former heal. The latter haunts you all your life. Speaking as someone with a long torn up knee, currently healing up some broken bones, and having had oh, maybe 12 broken bones in my life. 

 

Second, a higher boot would mess up your skiing. Higher level turns depend on small movements in the foot to initiate. The higher the boot, the more force this takes; think about how you push against the sides of the boot. By effectively locking everything up to your knee into a cast, a high top boot forces you to use your hips and thighs more to turn with. Not exactly what instructors like to see.

 

Third, if you've done this before, suspect the fault is in your fibulas - some folks have more gracile bones that break more easily - or your landing technique, or your bindings. FWIW, unless you weigh over 190, 9-10 is not "super low;" I'm 6', weigh 165, race at 7 or 8 using various Look FKS bindings and have never pre-released. Some of my fellow racers run a notch higher (8-9) using Sollies or 2 notches higher using Markers. In general, binders with more elasticity allow lower DIN's. If you're normal weight (190 for a male), 9-10 is about right for serious skiing on a non-Look binding. 

 

Height: You're 6" taller than average, what's your inseam? Say 1/3 of that 6" is in your trunk and 2/3 in your legs. Now take half of that 2/3 to get how much longer your lower leg is than average. So your calves are 2" longer. That's not a dramatic difference, and in any case there are plenty of boots out there that vary by 1.5-2" in shaft height. 

 

You may, in other words, want to rethink how and why you keep rebreaking your fibulas, if that's the case. Ain't your boots.


Edited by beyond - 2/4/16 at 11:20am
post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

 

Yeah, Dolomite and Nordica and Hanson and Alpina tried that... in 1981.        Google Nordica Polaris,  Dolomite Secret Weapon, Dolomite Superlite,  Hanson Alto...

 

Your argument here reads almost word for word like Dolomite adverts:

 

 

Hey, market what you like, just don't forget to provide different forward lean in each of four or five calf sizes in each of your boot sizes.


I had a pair of those in 81/82. I have no recollection as to how they skied, but I do remember wearing them with a bathing suit to a costume party my freshman year of college.

post #20 of 25
Modern boots are low on the leg? Who knew? I learned to ski in1968. Most of them didn't even have buckles then.
post #21 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherPlayThanWork View Post
 


I had a pair of those in 81/82. I have no recollection as to how they skied, but I do remember wearing them with a bathing suit to a costume party my freshman year of college.

 

Oh sure, you recall the important stuff............

 

I'm considering running for Congress here in Wyoming, mainly so the opposition will dig up stuff that will help me even remember my freshman year in college....

post #22 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
 


OK, first, a higher boot might save your fibula, but it would destroy your knees even more effectively. Just like current boots, which are higher than old leather boots, transferred risk from the ankle to the tibia and fibula. All biomechanics, y'see. The ad you show conveniently ignores this. Force has to go somewhere, and the top of the boot effectively creates a lever. Put another way, the ad's assumption that force is "spread" over the entire front of the boot is questionable even for leaning forward, and is flat wrong for high risk falls that result in spiral fractures, for instance. OTOH, personally, I'd rather have a broken bone than a torn up knee. The former heal. The latter haunts you all your life. Speaking as someone with a long torn up knee, currently healing up some broken bones, and having had oh, maybe 12 broken bones in my life. 

 

Second, a higher boot would mess up your skiing. Higher level turns depend on small movements in the foot to initiate. The higher the boot, the more force this takes; think about how you push against the sides of the boot. By effectively locking everything up to your knee into a cast, a high top boot forces you to use your hips and thighs more to turn with. Not exactly what instructors like to see.

 

Third, if you've done this before, suspect the fault is in your fibulas - some folks have more gracile bones that break more easily - or your landing technique, or your bindings. FWIW, unless you weigh over 190, 9-10 is not "super low;" I'm 6', weigh 165, race at 7 or 8 using various Look FKS bindings and have never pre-released. Some of my fellow racers run a notch higher (8-9) using Sollies or 2 notches higher using Markers. In general, binders with more elasticity allow lower DIN's. If you're normal weight (190 for a male), 9-10 is about right for serious skiing on a non-Look binding. 

 

Height: You're 6" taller than average, what's your inseam? Say 1/3 of that 6" is in your trunk and 2/3 in your legs. Now take half of that 2/3 to get how much longer your lower leg is than average. So your calves are 2" longer. That's not a dramatic difference, and in any case there are plenty of boots out there that vary by 1.5-2" in shaft height. 

 

You may, in other words, want to rethink how and why you keep rebreaking your fibulas, if that's the case. Ain't your boots.

I am 225lb with gear. the breaks are at the exact location of my cuff. 110 flex boots, professionally fitted. never broken any other bones other than fibulas from skiing. 

 

My idea for a "modern" knee high boot would incorporate a knee brace of some sort. That way people just start blowing hips out. 

post #23 of 25

It's not the boot!

 

CAUSES

Fractures occur when a force is placed on the bone that is greater than it can withstand. Common causes of fibular fracture include:

  • Direct hit (trauma) (i.e. hockey or lacrosse check to the lower leg).

  • Stress fracture (weakening of the bone from repeated stress).

  • Indirect injury, caused by twisting, turning quickly, or violent muscle contraction.

RISK INCREASES WITH:

  • Contact sports (i.e. football, soccer, lacrosse, hockey).

  • Sports that can cause twisted ankle injury (i.e. skiing, basketball).

  • Bony abnormalities (ie osteoporosis or bone tumors).

  • Metabolism disorders, hormone problems, and nutrition deficiency and disorders .

  • Poor strength and flexibility.

PREVENTION

  • Warm up and stretch properly before activity.

  • Maintain physical fitness:

  • Strength, flexibility, and endurance.

  • Cardiovascular fitness.

  • Wear properly fitted and padded protective equipment .

 

 

 

I've seen fractures of the ankle well below the boot cuff!

post #24 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post
 

It's not the boot!

 

CAUSES

Fractures occur when a force is placed on the bone that is greater than it can withstand. Common causes of fibular fracture include:

  • Direct hit (trauma) (i.e. hockey or lacrosse check to the lower leg).

  • Stress fracture (weakening of the bone from repeated stress).

  • Indirect injury, caused by twisting, turning quickly, or violent muscle contraction.

RISK INCREASES WITH:

  • Contact sports (i.e. football, soccer, lacrosse, hockey).

  • Sports that can cause twisted ankle injury (i.e. skiing, basketball).

  • Bony abnormalities (ie osteoporosis or bone tumors).

  • Metabolism disorders, hormone problems, and nutrition deficiency and disorders .

  • Poor strength and flexibility.

PREVENTION

  • Warm up and stretch properly before activity.

  • Maintain physical fitness:

  • Strength, flexibility, and endurance.

  • Cardiovascular fitness.

  • Wear properly fitted and padded protective equipment .

 

 

 

I've seen fractures of the ankle well below the boot cuff!

Stress fracture (weakening of the bone from repeated stress). concentrated loading and unloading from boot cuff. 

post #25 of 25

It's those nasty drops from the helio that cause the stress.

 

Stop doing that.

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