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Skis coming together in the fall line - Page 2

post #31 of 46
Thread Starter 

I agree that there is no "correct" stance width, but a habit of the width opening and closing indicates a potential flaw that needs correcting.

 

Today I skied in 8" of fresh snow and snowing on my Soul 7's.  First natural snow I've been on all season and it was day 29!

 

Needless to say my stance width was pretty narrow and my focus was not on inside ski tipping it was on balance and skiing with my core and hips.

post #32 of 46
That is the tip - keep your feet in a box. It's tension, buddy.
post #33 of 46
Btw - can you move your feet laterally in the box? (Meaning on a flat ski straight running - can you squeeze your feet together - arch to arch?
post #34 of 46
...Helluva was on track with his questions...
post #35 of 46
Atomic, agree with you, but they still have a narrow stance, which prevents putting weight on the inside ski.

For some reason, people have been advocating a wide stance, which is detrimental to balancing on the outside ski.
post #36 of 46

If you are trying and succeeding to make clean carved shmedium radius turns, you are likely going too fast to make a really good slalom turn.

You really need to slow it down to about 30 mph, a blue 20 degree maximum pitch works best, to fully appreciate a slalom radius turn and what a slalom ski can do.

I went from SG to SL, and it took me a while to learn this fact.

Once you have it down you CAN control speed (to a degree) with tight turns on steeper terrain, but learning how to do it is different.

post #37 of 46
Thread Starter 

Ghost I spent a lot of time skiing slowly and making shorter radius turns, they're just not as carved.  I'm on the path though.

 

Tip, sorry I don't understand your box metaphor.

post #38 of 46

Box?  Please explain.

post #39 of 46
As rod mentioned above, each of has a biomechanical 'best' stance width and lead. It can be found with static drills. It only takes centimeters outside of that stance to lose functionality and tension. Pretend you are skiing with your boots in a box. Start off with the box being the same size as your feet ( you can adjust bigger if needed. It is made of cardboard, so the box can twist to into a rhombus shape, but more twisting will break the box. If your feet don't have tension both laterally and fore/aft inside the box it will spin around and eventually get crushed.
Make sense?

Edit: The box must be maintained when the feet seperate vertically, as shown in the pics below.
Edited by Tip Ripply - 2/6/16 at 6:46am
post #40 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post

Actually, look at racers and you will see that they have a narrow stance, boots almost touching .
That is NOT because of a narrow stance.   that is because they are attaining ultra high edge angles.

Same photo






This picture set says a lot even though they are the same picture.

Bottom frame first. Wide track (not stance) because of lean to allow for boot/leg/ski clearance.

Top frame. Imagine the skier is actually upright, narrow stance (not track) because there is no lean and no clearance is required.

Part of understand in how this works is the interchange terms that we misuse. Atomicman, Razie and other true racers and race coaches use them correctly, while the rest of us don't and also don't fully understand the meaning because of this.

For me I get the concepts (lucky I guess) but don't know the terms so I'm guilty of abuse of terms.

Stance is the starting point in the upright position is set by the activity quickness (narrow), stable (wide) or combination (both) the run requires.

Track is a function of both skis path. With a narrower stance as you lean over onto edge boots/skis/legs are going to prevent edge snow contact. So the outside leg extends and inside retracts to maintain contact (don't worry about pressure at this point, just the concept). Stance has not changed, track has!

Start with a wide stance, and do the same. Through out the lean there is no interference on the boot/ski/leg issue to maintain contact with the snow. Stance and track remains constant. Think PSIAMAN and his constant stance/track yet perfect turns.

Medium stance, is somewhere between on track issues.

So all is right, where and how this occurr are actually the issue for correction. As to edge pressure that a whole other discussion.

Hopefully, this helps (and coaches/racers sorry if I butchered the terms again).
post #41 of 46

Two things:

 

(1) Your stance might not be narrowing at all. My stance width might not be changing but it can feel like it's wider when I'm on edge than when I'm on a flat ski in the transition.

 

(2) Maybe your stance is narrowing...so what? If your skis are doing what you want in the snow, who cares? Or, to put it another way, narrowing your stance causes your skis to do something you don't like in the snow...what is it?

post #42 of 46
Thread Starter 

OK, so today I skied with focus again.  Didn't see my tracks, but I can say that jamt had it right.  I have been lazy with my inside ski, not tipping it as much as the outside ski.  By focusing on "pointing the inside knee" my turns felt better.  By pointing it I mean tipping the inside ski more with knee movement.

 

I probably had a bit of an A frame going on too.  All I can say is that by focusing on keeping my inside knee moving more in the direction of the turn things just felt better, rounder turns, more edge angle.

post #43 of 46
Progressive counter balance to the outside ski as you tip the inside ski.
post #44 of 46
Thread Starter 

More playing with this.  Skied with an exaggerated wide stance for awhile this morning, kind of cowboy turns.  I became quite aware of the new inside skis "desire" to pull in just at transition.  Since the tracks last week didn't show as a skid, I assume it's a bit of a wedge entry.  Bad.

 

One really needs to manage the inside ski (as *they* say.)  

 

As the morning went on I could narrow the stance width.  

 

I also moved to a kind of weighted release (as *he* calls it) which to me is very similar to Bob Barnes' "default" turn movement pattern.

 

As BB says, just keep standing on the outside ski as and after you tip it, starting the turn with pressure on the outside edge of the now inside ski.  You then gradually build up pressure under the new outside ski.  You don't try to get early pressure to the new outside ski.

 

To do this you a:) need to be forward, no way to pressure the outside edge of the new inside ski otherwise and b:) keep it pressured so it doesn't drift in or wedge.

 

This is a bit like a white pass turn.

 

The progression worked wonders.  I was skiing amazingly well and with a leap in my feeling of control and smoothness.

post #45 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

More playing with this.  Skied with an exaggerated wide stance for awhile this morning, kind of cowboy turns.  I became quite aware of the new inside skis "desire" to pull in just at transition.  Since the tracks last week didn't show as a skid, I assume it's a bit of a wedge entry.  Bad.

 

One really needs to manage the inside ski (as *they* say.)  

 

As the morning went on I could narrow the stance width.  

 

I also moved to a kind of weighted release (as *he* calls it) which to me is very similar to Bob Barnes' "default" turn movement pattern.

 

As BB says, just keep standing on the outside ski as and after you tip it, starting the turn with pressure on the outside edge of the now inside ski.  You then gradually build up pressure under the new outside ski.  You don't try to get early pressure to the new outside ski.

 

To do this you a:) need to be forward, no way to pressure the outside edge of the new inside ski otherwise and b:) keep it pressured so it doesn't drift in or wedge.

 

This is a bit like a white pass turn.

 

The progression worked wonders.  I was skiing amazingly well and with a leap in my feeling of control and smoothness.


Some comments:

 

A wedge entry isn't necessarily bad...Bode and Lindsey Vonn do it all the time.

 

I think we're all waaay too concerned with the inside ski, and I see it in racers and good skiers every day: Focus too much on what the inside ski is doing, and you start tipping in and weighting the inside ski. One of the USST touch points for slalom is "outside ski to outside ski". If you think in those terms, the inside ski takes care of itself most of the time.

 

Don't understand "weighted release". I want to get light when I release so I can redirect the skis. Watch some World Cup. They're releasing the energy built up in the ski at the end of the turn and getting incredibly light so they can redirect the feet to exactly where they want to initiate the next turn.

 

Agree that pressure on the outside ski should be gradual, not harsh. Don't agree that you don't want early pressure; I think you do.

 

Stay away from White Pass turns. That's tipping the whole body column, and you might (or might like, might not) reconnect with the ski. Roll the feet over to find the new edge, then get against the ski, not the other way around.

 

Spend some time working on all this on GS skis or longer. I was skiing with one of the 70 FIS point skiers on the CU Development Team, and she said more or less the same thing: You can ski well on a pair of SL skis, but you can also get away with a lot of crap. Get on a pair of GS skis and make all this happen, then you'll know it's for real.

 

Ron LeMaster once said that skiing hasn't changed since Warren Witherell pretty much set down the rules of the game in How the Racers Ski back in 1972. To whit, at one of his fall presentations in Boulder a couple of seasons back, Ron said that the WC coaches emphasize the following:

 

- Quiet upper body.

- Early outside edge.

- Bend the tip to start the turn.

- Pressure predominantly on the outside ski.

 

If I'm working with one of my teammates or trying to fix a glitch in my own skiing, I always go back to these four basics, and the problem is always one (or more) of the above. Focus on the basics, keep it simple, and everything else falls into place...

 

:cool

post #46 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post
 
 

Some comments:

 

A wedge entry isn't necessarily bad...Bode and Lindsey Vonn do it all the time.

 

Well that's good to hear. 

 

I think we're all waaay too concerned with the inside ski, and I see it in racers and good skiers every day: Focus too much on what the inside ski is doing, and you start tipping in and weighting the inside ski. 

 

I am weighting the new inside ski but only briefly and then shifting the weight to the outside ski.

 

One of the USST touch points for slalom is "outside ski to outside ski". If you think in those terms, the inside ski takes care of itself most of the time.

 

Don't understand "weighted release". I want to get light when I release so I can redirect the skis. Watch some World Cup. They're releasing the energy built up in the ski at the end of the turn and getting incredibly light so they can redirect the feet to exactly where they want to initiate the next turn.

 

Well I'm not a racer and if anything am more concerned with speed control than gaining speed.  Smooth non-braking speed control though.  I seriously doubt that Bob Barnes would use that term as it comes from the dark side, but what Bob describes is keeping pressure on the outside ski as you tip it to it's outside edge.  So the turn starts with pressure on the outside edge of the new inside ski.  Definitely not a retraction, nor an extension transition.  

 

Agree that pressure on the outside ski should be gradual, not harsh. Don't agree that you don't want early pressure; I think you do.

 

Well you certainly know more than I do, but I do think there is pressure on it, just not this effort to grab a lot of early pressure that so many PSIA types recommend.  According to Bob if you do that there's nowhere to go, you've used up all the pressure too early.

 

Stay away from White Pass turns. That's tipping the whole body column, and you might (or might like, might not) reconnect with the ski. Roll the feet over to find the new edge, then get against the ski, not the other way around.

 

I get that.  It's not really a white pass turn, just has a little component of it as it starts on that outside edge.

 

Spend some time working on all this on GS skis or longer. I was skiing with one of the 70 FIS point skiers on the CU Development Team, and she said more or less the same thing: You can ski well on a pair of SL skis, but you can also get away with a lot of crap. Get on a pair of GS skis and make all this happen, then you'll know it's for real.

 

You've been telling me this for years, and I did go to longer radius skis this year (not GS skis though) and my goals in my skiing is making clean speed controlled short radius turns better so that I can apply that to steeps, bumps and off-piste skiing.  I only like going fast on moderate slopes, then I do like it a lot, but on steeper terrain I need to control my speed, and hate doing that with braking at the bottom of the turn.  SL skis are much better for this.  Remember I ski on the East Coast mostly!

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