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TDK bump skiing 2016 - Page 2

post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

So... since I had nothing to share, I figured I need to get into bumps, so here's Razie's first day in bumps. I never did the freaking things before (they're usually just sore icy spots here), but I am pretty hooked now, so expect more "bumped up" videos... today they were nice and soft and half our club was there and I had my camera as usual in a pocket... so... I will spare you the terrifying runs where I look like a bouncy ball inside a flipper machine, here's some more controlled runs half way-through the couple hours I spent in there. 

 

I think a couple runs later I figured out what pole plants are useful for and that counteraction/separation is a big deal etc...

 

 

I know I suck - so no need to MA this thing... it's just so you know why I don't comment on bump skiing threads, I guess :eek... I'll stick to race tech threads, heh

 

:ski 

You have my respect for posting the video.  This is not my preferred mogul style, but you have a grace which is enjoyable to watch (minus a stumble or two which most of us have when pushing our limits).

post #32 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

So... since I had nothing to share, I figured I need to get into bumps, so here's Razie's first day in bumps. I never did the freaking things before (they're usually just sore icy spots here), but I am pretty hooked now, so expect more "bumped up" videos... today they were nice and soft and half our club was there and I had my camera as usual in a pocket... so... I will spare you the terrifying runs where I look like a bouncy ball inside a flipper machine, here's some more controlled runs half way-through the couple hours I spent in there. 

I think a couple runs later I figured out what pole plants are useful for and that counteraction/separation is a big deal etc...




I know I suck - so no need to MA this thing... it's just so you know why I don't comment on bump skiing threads, I guess eek.gif ... I'll stick to race tech threads, heh

ski.gif  

Thats great. Bumpskiing is all about figuring it out. You are hslf way there smile.gif.
post #33 of 41
Razie stop skiing like you are on groomed terrain, no more long leg short leg. Keep them together and you'll see immediate improvement, been there done that.
post #34 of 41

Less edge, more movement.  Think pick the feet up in the transition, and extend them into the trough.

 

Mike

post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

So... since I had nothing to share, I figured I need to get into bumps, so here's Razie's first day in bumps. I never did the freaking things before (they're usually just sore icy spots here), but I am pretty hooked now, so expect more "bumped up" videos... today they were nice and soft and half our club was there and I had my camera as usual in a pocket... so... I will spare you the terrifying runs where I look like a bouncy ball inside a flipper machine, here's some more controlled runs half way-through the couple hours I spent in there. 

 

I think a couple runs later I figured out what pole plants are useful for and that counteraction/separation is a big deal etc...

 

I know I suck - so no need to MA this thing... it's just so you know why I don't comment on bump skiing threads, I guess :eek... I'll stick to race tech threads, heh

 

:ski 

Razie, there’s so much about moguls that’s relevant to our other discussions (arguments) that I would like to give you my take on it.

 

When there are soft, rounded bumps you can pretty much ski wherever you want, but when the bumps are well formed there are often walls of ice or snow that you can not ski across without breaking a ski or something worse.  So, there are places where you must turn (unless you jump) and often very little space.  If everyone is skiing the exact same size ski in the exact same spot, in the exact same way, then you can get well formed bump shapes that can allow arc to arc carving around the bumps, but I’ve only ever seen those bumps in a few videos.  Skiing all over North America, I’ve never seen well formed bumps like this in person, because bumps are usually formed from a diverse population of skiers.  So, given that there are times you must turn in a small space, you have to rotate the skis for part of the turn.  Icy bumps can be fun, because it’s easy to pivot the skis, but they are punishing to learn on.  In very soft conditions, it can be hard to pivot the skis with weight.  This is one reason carving is such a great all mountain tool.  But, if there’s not enough space to carve a turn, then you have to get light in transition to be able to swing the skis around.

So, how do you get light in transition?

 

1.  Rapid retraction on an even slope does not work, because you fall too quickly.

 

2.  Jump turns or up unweighting can work in some places, but it’s exhausting and can be slow.

 

3.  Sometimes you can load the ski to vault, but there’s not always space to bend the ski or get a good grip, plus it’s relatively slow.

 

So, there’s one method that will always work, and this is the core of bump skiing.  Use the bump to get weightless, so that you can rotate the skis at the top of the turn.  Let the bump push you up just enough to get where you want to go, but then absorb the rest of it by flexing the legs to keep it from tossing you.  Where you want to go is just before the next bump, so that you can use it to get weightless again.

            Though, the face of the bump can be just a wall that you can not ski up and over, so often you have to use the inside shoulder of the bump.  Pick the part of the bump that gives you just the right amount of pop.  Most people end up picking the same place which forms the trough, and since people are weightless at the end of the trough, the trough forms into a hole with a lip at the end which is a bump in itself.  So, just skiing the troughs in that situation leads to enough bump to get weightless for each turn.  Let the lip push you up just a little then pull the feet up, rotate them, and extend them back down into the next trough to repeat.  The faster you go, the less time you can allow the bump to push you up.  Once you start going fast, you can touch down just before the bump for a small period of time, so that it gives you an exhilarating sense of flying while having to respond to the terrain coming at you like in a video game.

            So, here’s the challenge.  Ski the line turning on every bump with the feet together.  At first, it’s just a challenge and not that much fun, but for motivation just think you suck if you can’t do it.  But, by the time you meet that challenge you may experience some of the greatest sensations in skiing and be hooked on bumps.

post #36 of 41

I'm working on my own bump skiing.  I used to see bumps in only the lateral plane -- that is, as obstacles to go around (or over).  A breakthrough for me has been to see them in the vertical plane, that is, I see my line as more directly down the fall line and instead of thinking of turning, I think of where I must flex and extend.  It was a total revelation to me.

 

What I believe is that very few skiers have developed the ability to flex and extend sufficiently to ski bumps well.  I happened to overhear a discussion  of a former PSIA demo team member who observed the tryouts for the regional demo team.  His comment was that only a couple of the 40 or so had sufficient flexion and extension to have a shot at making the national team.

 

Mike

post #37 of 41

I like the style and flow

  narrow the stance

  let yourself flex down

Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post
 

I'm working on my own bump skiing.  I used to see bumps in only the lateral plane -- that is, as obstacles to go around (or over).  A breakthrough for me has been to see them in the vertical plane, that is, I see my line as more directly down the fall line and instead of thinking of turning, I think of where I must flex and extend.  It was a total revelation to me.

 

What I believe is that very few skiers have developed the ability to flex and extend sufficiently to ski bumps well.  I happened to overhear a discussion  of a former PSIA demo team member who observed the tryouts for the regional demo team.  His comment was that only a couple of the 40 or so had sufficient flexion and extension to have a shot at making the national team.

 

Mike

This ^^^ really resonates with me.  Outside of moguls, the need for a large range of motion (flex/extend) just isn't there.  And its hard to work on that without moguls.

 The more direct line means less rotary, more flex and extend.  If you get a day with more than a few inches new, this is really fun - hero moguls.

 In more established moguls this often means more speed.  I don't think you get really really good until you start taking this approach, which may mean some higher speed wipeouts or bailouts.

 

Range of motion is what keeps the skis on the snow...

post #38 of 41

Thumbs Up

 

thanks guys - I got my notes, will get to work and report back with more video and get my own thread... (sorry TDK)...

 

TE - sure, I have no problem with pivoting. It is a tactical choice however and for me just a part of the bigger "oversteering" concept that LF nicely explored a while back... there are skiers that can bend a 13m into a 9m radius and don't need it to make that 9m turn and then there's the rest of us that need some oversteering to make the same turn.


You describe flexing... as opposed to retraction. I think we're on the same page so far... I ski virtual bumps all the time, in the same way you describe skiing the real bumps... all you need to do is to steal enough energy from the turn to then flex and let the skis come light from the "trampoline" or over the "virtual bump" or whatever it's being called - it's perhaps why I didn't get too tired even doing a couple hours of bumps that day...

 

I think that the size of the "virtual bumps" we ski over with flexing depends on ski bend (as a result of radius vs sidecut), thus skill and range of movement... we can explore that in a separate thread, I've managed to already derail this one enough.

 

Here's flexing over a virtual bump - I can actually almost visualize it now, after flexing over the real ones:

 

 

cheers.


Edited by razie - 2/23/16 at 11:47am
post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

 

You describe flexing... as opposed to retraction. I think we're on the same page so far... I ski virtual bumps all the time, in the same way you describe skiing the real bumps... all you need to do is to steal enough energy from the turn to then flex and let the skis come light from the "trampoline" or over the "virtual bump" or whatever it's being called - it's perhaps why I didn't get too tired even doing a couple hours of bumps that day...

 

I think that the size of the "virtual bumps" we ski over with flexing depends on ski bend (as a result of radius vs sidecut), thus skill and range of movement... we can explore that in a separate thread, I've managed to already derail this one enough.

 

Here's flexing over a virtual bump - I can actually almost visualize it now, after flexing over the real ones:

 

 

I agree with that.  There's lots of similarities between the virtual bump and the real bump.  I use the virtual bump in the moguls sometimes when the real bump is missing, but the whole process of the virtual bump is slower and takes more space.  If you try to use it to avoid the real bump it doesn't become fast and fluid, because it's slower and not synchronized with the terrain.  The other thing is that the real bump tends to toss you much more and requires more absorption (flexing or retracting).  Also, combining the virtual bump with the real bump sometimes requires more absorption than one can handle, so loading the ski too much out of carving habit can toss you.

 

I think you're going to be crushing it in no time, so I'm excited to see more videos.

post #40 of 41
Thread Starter 

Bump skiing and feeling the virtual bump at transition are not the same thing. Two completely different turn types and approaches. When you ski bumps you need to turn the skis quickly to adapt to the bumps and to scrub off some speed at every turn. When you carve you let your skis run flat out and turn you at their own pace and time with no braking. Experiencing the virtual bump might feel the same as running over a bump but that's where the similarities end. Which is also why even high level carving pros have a struggle in bumps. Here is a video I made years ago to show what it looks like to carve in bumps:

 

post #41 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

Bump skiing and feeling the virtual bump at transition are not the same thing. Two completely different turn types and approaches. When you ski bumps you need to turn the skis quickly to adapt to the bumps and to scrub off some speed at every turn. When you carve you let your skis run flat out and turn you at their own pace and time with no braking. Experiencing the virtual bump might feel the same as running over a bump but that's where the similarities end. Which is also why even high level carving pros have a struggle in bumps. Here is a video I made years ago to show what it looks like to carve in bumps:

 

Other words to describe this difference is that you can place the virtual bump where you want, but you can't move the real bump.  In real bumps, you are forced to deal with that bump at that place no matter what.

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