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influence of 2 or 3 degrees for side edge on all mountain skis

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 

Hello!

 

I was on my Motive 95 this week end skiing bumps, trees and groomed... The skis are really nice on groomed and bumps but can be a little work in trees... I know that it is part because there is no real tail rocker but then, it hitted me, could it be better in the trees if I went from the 3° they presently are to a 2° side edge? As anyone ever did the experiment with the same skis?

post #2 of 22

NO. More Side edge angle  gives you more edge grip. (I tune all my skis with a 3 degree side edge. But I don't think that will solve the issue you describe. More Base bevel will make the skis slower to engage the side edge.  I am assuming in the tress you are ski ungroomed snow so essentially none of this will matter. 

 

You have to keep it moving forward and stay off the tails. Concentrate on the spaces not the trees and look farther ahead!

 

It may  be the ski you are on is just not quick enough edge to edge or you cannot pivot them easily enough. More base bevel may help that somewhat (minimally) in ungroomed, but you will pay for it with degraded groomed and bump performance. 

post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

NO. More Side edge angle  gives you more edge grip. (I tune all my skis with a 3 degree side edge. But I don't think that will solve the issue you describe. More Base bevel will make the skis slower to engage the side edge.  I am assuming in the tress you are ski ungroomed snow so essentially none of this will matter. 

 

You have to keep it moving forward and stay off the tails. Concentrate on the spaces not the trees and look farther ahead!

 

It may  be the ski you are on is just not quick enough edge to edge or you cannot pivot them easily enough. More base bevel may help that somewhat (minimally) in ungroomed, but you will pay for it with degraded groomed and bump performance. 

 

Hey Atomicman!

 

Almost all my skis are 3° too... When I use my motive 95, conditions are mostly skied out with some nice surprises from time to time... so it does matter...Skis are quick enough and I try to be quick enough too...

 

Being carefull getting off the tail? I know but sometimes I forget it...:rolleyes... 

 

More base bevel? Interesting but you're right, I'll pay for it! It remind me of the time I tried a Lib Tech ski; I was going all over the place!

 

So, you think going to 2° might help but minimally? So no miracle today! 

 

Started another thread also in relation to this one: a more drastic solution...http://www.epicski.com/t/145375/going-for-more-playful-skis

post #4 of 22

I'm not a big fan of 3 degree bevels on all mtn skis for the soft snow world I mostly live in, finding that it gives the ski a kind of binary feel compared to 2 degrees.  Slalom skis, OTOH love the 3!

 

But I gotta agree with A-Man that base bevel probably isn't impacting quickness in the trees that much.

 

FWIW, I am loving my Motive 95s in 186, and they are quick enough for me, but they are NOT as quick as my Hell & Backs.

post #5 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRPufnStf View Post
 

I'm not a big fan of 3 degree bevels on all mtn skis for the soft snow world I mostly live in, finding that it gives the ski a kind of binary feel compared to 2 degrees.  Slalom skis, OTOH love the 3!

 

But I gotta agree with A-Man that base bevel probably isn't impacting quickness in the trees that much.

 

FWIW, I am loving my Motive 95s in 186, and they are quick enough for me, but they are NOT as quick as my Hell & Backs.

What do you mean by binary feel?

post #6 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 

What do you mean by binary feel?

Hooked up or not hooked up. Either carving or skidding, and difficult to "slarve" or whatever the term of the day is.

 

Of course, at my level, I'll freely admit that I might not successfully pass the blindfold test of 2 vs. 3 degrees, but when I've messed around with it, that is how it seemed to feel.

post #7 of 22
Side edge bevel has nothing whatsoever to do with slarving, binary feel, quickness to edge...on or off feel....that is all about base bevel. A accurate clean 1 degree base EDGE bevel should be what you need. A 2 or 3 side edge in soft snow just is not going to make any difference.
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRPufnStf View Post

I'm not a big fan of 3 degree bevels on all mtn skis for the soft snow world I mostly live in, finding that it gives the ski a kind of binary feel compared to 2 degrees.  Slalom skis, OTOH love the 3!

But I gotta agree with A-Man that base bevel (I said side edge bevel)probably isn't impacting quickness in the trees that much.

FWIW, I am loving my Motive 95s in 186, and they are quick enough for me, but they are NOT as quick as my Hell & Backs.
FIFY
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Side edge bevel has nothing whatsoever to do with slarving, binary feel, quickness to edge...on or off feel....that is all about base bevel. A accurate clean 1 degree base EDGE bevel should be what you need. A 2 or 3 side edge in soft snow just is not going to make any difference.

Yup, I know we've disagreed on this in the past.

 

It remains my opinion.

post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Side edge bevel has nothing whatsoever to do with slarving, binary feel, quickness to edge...on or off feel....that is all about base bevel. A accurate clean 1 degree base EDGE bevel should be what you need. A 2 or 3 side edge in soft snow We're talking skied out...just is not going to make any difference.

I would say it is usually true but would not say it is all black or white...

For exemple, I did own a Rossi Pursuit 2 years ago and I sied it at 2° side edge first and then decided to go to 3° and it completly change the behavioral of the skis! It lost all it smoothness and felt like  the extra grip that the 3° side edge was kind of too much for the skis... I returned to 2° without changing anything else and it came back as before... It is the only ski that ever did that to me...

 

Also thinking that the shape of the tail could have some influence as  how much we could feel a difference between a 2 or 3°...I would guess that the difference would feel more negligeable on a pintail than a larger tail that is really present...

post #11 of 22

In soft snow your don't need edges.  On hard snow I like 3°.  The drawback is that when you hit a rock, a bigger chunk will be knocked out of a more acute edge.

post #12 of 22
Thread Starter 

The more I think about it and the more I know there must be a difference... If not, well we wouldn't see a difference either when we ski skis that have been detuned...

 

But also, the more I ski and the more I see that edge grip is also a matter of mastering technic... Due to poor season, I skied a lot more icy groomed this year and I can see a difference in the amount of edge grip I can get from my skis now... I skied an Armada TST lately and it rocked! Really nice ski about everywhere but I realized last night that Armada skis have a factory tune of 1°/1°! And edge hold was more than enough! So I'm thinking of dropping all my skis that are not purely on-piste from 3° to 2° side edge... and maybe even 1° for the ones that have big chances to hit rocks... Even if the skis that did have the most rock damage this season are one of my GS cheater skis! Rocks on piste at high speed can do a lot more than rocks in glades where you tend to feather...:rolleyes

post #13 of 22

IMO the difference between 2* and 3* edge bevel can not be felt by the average skier, I doubt I could tell. The base bevel makes all the difference. My GF who started skiing 5 years ago has only been on 1* base 3* edge. She has no problem with it, she's a few years younger then me, I'm 61y/o.

 

All my skis and hers are at 1/3, even my 119mm waist Shiro's. They railroad track the same as my Kendo's on the run outs back to the lift.

 

OP where is your body position in the trees ? You should always be up and forward driving the tips of the skis. If the skis are tuned well and sharp tip to tail and the boots fit well, you not have any issues.

post #14 of 22

IMHO, a difference of 1 degree edge can be felt by most skiers on hardback or ice. :D That said, I ski in the east mostly and run 1/3 on everything I own between 70 and 100 mm, .7/3 for racing, 1/2 for powder skis. But agree with Max that the base angle makes a more dramatic handling difference; .5 or .7 is Right Now, 1.0 is Quick Enough, >1.0 is Yawn While I Wait To Turn. 

post #15 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

IMO the difference between 2* and 3* edge bevel can not be felt by the average skier, I doubt I could tell. The base bevel makes all the difference. My GF who started skiing 5 years ago has only been on 1* base 3* edge. She has no problem with it, she's a few years younger then me, I'm 61y/o.

 

All my skis and hers are at 1/3, even my 119mm waist Shiro's. They railroad track the same as my Kendo's on the run outs back to the lift.

 

OP where is your body position in the trees ? You should always be up and forward driving the tips of the skis. If the skis are tuned well and sharp tip to tail and the boots fit well, you not have any issues.

Ok now it's the second person to tell me to be more on the tips ( or less on the tails)... So I guess I'll have to be more careful and check it out! May be there is something there...

post #16 of 22
While not about All Mountian Ski this applies just as well....

http://www.epicski.com/t/145210/ski-wont-hold-an-edge-in-ice-base-grind-or-dead-ski#post_1971141

IMHO a 1/3 is the minimum any ski should be set except for a park ski in which case the rails are going to destroy any base/edges setting on the first grind.
post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 

Ok now it's the second person to tell me to be more on the tips ( or less on the tails)... So I guess I'll have to be more careful and check it out! May be there is something there...


Don't worry we've all been there. It takes a lot of commitment to get there. May be take a lesson with the focus being short radius turns. To "own" a short radius turn you need to be up and forward. Once you have that skill, there pretty much isn't anything you can't ski. Having that skill is truly a major break through.

post #18 of 22
Think of it this way.

Base angle gives you the how fast a ski hooks up.
Forward at the initiation gives you how hard it hooks up.
Back on finish gives you how hard it throws you into the next turn.

Hopefully this helps.
post #19 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

While not about All Mountian Ski this applies just as well....

http://www.epicski.com/t/145210/ski-wont-hold-an-edge-in-ice-base-grind-or-dead-ski#post_1971141

IMHO a 1/3 is the minimum any ski should be set except for a park ski in which case the rails are going to destroy any base/edges setting on the first grind.

I tried a 0.5 on an all mountain ski ounce: a sultan legend 85... and it was creepy... Felt like the edges were always on and felt harsh... I arrived at the conclusion that a 0.5° base bevel worked betteo on stiffer skis...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 


Don't worry we've all been there. It takes a lot of commitment to get there. May be take a lesson with the focus being short radius turns. To "own" a short radius turn you need to be up and forward. Once you have that skill, there pretty much isn't anything you can't ski. Having that skill is truly a major break through.

I do have that skill...but I have to verify (don't we all) if:

  • I have it enough ( sometimes you just think that you do:D)
  • I apply it constantly when needed... That might be the problem because I sometimes realize in bumps that I moved a little backward...
post #20 of 22
Yes 0.5 keeps you on your toes until you are neutral. Until be prepared as they can bite wink.gif
post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 

 

 

I do have that skill...but I have to verify (don't we all) if:

  • I have it enough ( sometimes you just think that you do:D)
  • I apply it constantly when needed... That might be the problem because I sometimes realize in bumps that I moved a little backward...

 

Yes, I have felt that same thing in the bumps. As long as you can feel it and catch yourself that's more than half the battle. May be slow down when skiing bumps and think more about body position. I also tend to ski the anti-bump line. I turn on the tops of the bump not in the trough's. That's something I was taught by a great instructor.

post #22 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

 

Yes, I have felt that same thing in the bumps. As long as you can feel it and catch yourself that's more than half the battle. May be slow down when skiing bumps and think more about body position. I also tend to ski the anti-bump line. I turn on the tops of the bump not in the trough's. That's something I was taught by a great instructor.

I already have to remember to breath...seriously...

 

Slowing down: yup..trying lately to be more constant and do a longer lap slower than going rapidly and having to stop out of breath...

 

And this year, I turn where there is no rocks...:D

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