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new beer league/NASTAR GS skis

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

TAG jr's skis have seen their last tune, so, much to his delight, it's time to replace his 10 year old 173 Fischer RC4 WC GS skis that he got when he graduated high school with something newer.  So, Dad here is doing some digging to see just what looks promising.  First, he is a good solid racer, but we only do our local beer league and NASTAR.  He's about 5'-7", @170lbs, and a consistent low 10's in terms of handicaps (which for his age group, puts him just outside of platinum's).  He does some occasional Masters training.

 

He thinks he needs to stay with a FIS type ski like his old Fischer's; however, I keep telling him that FIS skis today are nothing like the FIS-type ski he has been on for the last 10 years and he needs to look at so-called 'cheater' skis, like I ski on, especially given that nearly all of his race days will be spent on our local midwest 'mountains' which means short, 18M type courses. 

 

From what I can see out there, looks like there are a few brands that make 3 levels of citizen race skis: a FIS compliant ski, a 'Masters' ski, and then a cheater ski, while most seem to make just a FIS stamped ski and a Non-FIS ski.  Could be that I'm pigeon-holing these incorrectly, but, from what I can see and also what I've had the chance to ski myself, I'm leaning towards the Rossignol Hero Master in a 175 or the Blizzard WRC also in a 175.  Both of these seem to fit in that 1 step above the cheater ski category and land in the @18M radius area.  Other suggestions for skis to consider?  While I'm tempted to get him on another pair of Fischer's, he has skied on my 7 year old RC4 WC RC Pro's, and didn't like them in the gates.  Not sure if this year's version, now just the RC4 WC RC, is significantly different to warrant another look. 

post #2 of 25

  I would really look at the new Fischer RC's, they've changed since your model came out and if nothing else they wouldn't have all the use on them. I work for Fischer so fair warning there, I'm a Pacesetter at our area and the RC is the ski I use as do some of our other Pacesetter's, works great.

post #3 of 25

Look into the Elan GSX Fusion. It has a 17.8m radius at 176 cm. I think he'd really like it.

 

Karl

post #4 of 25
post #5 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post
 

TAG jr's skis have seen their last tune, so, much to his delight, it's time to replace his 10 year old 173 Fischer RC4 WC GS skis that he got when he graduated high school with something newer.  So, Dad here is doing some digging to see just what looks promising.  First, he is a good solid racer, but we only do our local beer league and NASTAR.  He's about 5'-7", @170lbs, and a consistent low 10's in terms of handicaps (which for his age group, puts him just outside of platinum's).  He does some occasional Masters training.

 

He thinks he needs to stay with a FIS type ski like his old Fischer's; however, I keep telling him that FIS skis today are nothing like the FIS-type ski he has been on for the last 10 years and he needs to look at so-called 'cheater' skis, like I ski on, especially given that nearly all of his race days will be spent on our local midwest 'mountains' which means short, 18M type courses. 

 

From what I can see out there, looks like there are a few brands that make 3 levels of citizen race skis: a FIS compliant ski, a 'Masters' ski, and then a cheater ski, while most seem to make just a FIS stamped ski and a Non-FIS ski.  Could be that I'm pigeon-holing these incorrectly, but, from what I can see and also what I've had the chance to ski myself, I'm leaning towards the Rossignol Hero Master in a 175 or the Blizzard WRC also in a 175.  Both of these seem to fit in that 1 step above the cheater ski category and land in the @18M radius area.  Other suggestions for skis to consider?  While I'm tempted to get him on another pair of Fischer's, he has skied on my 7 year old RC4 WC RC Pro's, and didn't like them in the gates.  Not sure if this year's version, now just the RC4 WC RC, is significantly different to warrant another look. 

 

Just be careful. Some of what appear to be "cheater' skis are actually the "tweener" skis built for kids (usually u16) to fill the gap before they move to the full FIS skis.  As such they are built for 130ish pound kids and can fold like a cheap suit when skied on by a 170# adult.    The Rossi Hero Master is very popular but again here the 175 is normally used by women or more senior men.  Haven't tried it so dont know if it is as easily overpowered 

post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post

TAG jr's skis have seen their last tune, so, much to his delight, it's time to replace his 10 year old 173 Fischer RC4 WC GS skis that he got when he graduated high school with something newer.  So, Dad here is doing some digging to see just what looks promising.  First, he is a good solid racer, but we only do our local beer league and NASTAR.  He's about 5'-7", @170lbs, and a consistent low 10's in terms of handicaps (which for his age group, puts him just outside of platinum's).  He does some occasional Masters training.

He thinks he needs to stay with a FIS type ski like his old Fischer's; however, I keep telling him that FIS skis today are nothing like the FIS-type ski he has been on for the last 10 years and he needs to look at so-called 'cheater' skis, like I ski on, especially given that nearly all of his race days will be spent on our local midwest 'mountains' which means short, 18M type courses. 

From what I can see out there, looks like there are a few brands that make 3 levels of citizen race skis: a FIS compliant ski, a 'Masters' ski, and then a cheater ski, while most seem to make just a FIS stamped ski and a Non-FIS ski.  Could be that I'm pigeon-holing these incorrectly, but, from what I can see and also what I've had the chance to ski myself, I'm leaning towards the Rossignol Hero Master in a 175 or the Blizzard WRC also in a 175.  Both of these seem to fit in that 1 step above the cheater ski category and land in the @18M radius area.  Other suggestions for skis to consider?  While I'm tempted to get him on another pair of Fischer's, he has skied on my 7 year old RC4 WC RC Pro's, and didn't like them in the gates.  Not sure if this year's version, now just the RC4 WC RC, is significantly different to warrant another look. 

There's a lot of good stuff being made now. Some of our masters women are on 170's, some on 180's, with 175 probably most common. At a fairly strong 170lbs your son should be on a 180 at least. At that length the "cheaters" are usually 18-19R. The Rossi Hero that ScotsSkier mentioned I believe comes in a few different radii, one of them being 21 or so at that length.
post #7 of 25

What are the top guys running for skis in that league and in NASTAR where you race?  Some course sets favor a 16m to 18m ski when straighter courses may favor a 21 to 23M ski.

Is it safe to say his current boards are a 17M jr gs?

 

post #8 of 25
The Rossi skis not only change in radius, but in construction too. The 16 and 18 meter versions are fairly soft skis, while the 21 has more beef. The 23M has basically the same construction as the 30/35 FIS skis, so it takes some effort to get it thorough a really tight set, but it has a lot more horsepower than the shorter versions.
post #9 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Atomic Redster  GS

He did use Atomics in high school and loved them, so had this one on the list as well.  I'm curious to see just how the Ramp Tech works and what kind of difference it might make.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trailtrimmer View Post
 

What are the top guys running for skis in that league and in NASTAR where you race?  Some course sets favor a 16m to 18m ski when straighter courses may favor a 21 to 23M ski.

Is it safe to say his current boards are a 17M jr gs?

 

Guys around here are all over the place.  Rossi seems to be very popular, but we've got lots of Fischer's, Blizzard's, and Nordica's on the hill too.  'Bout the only one oddly missing to me is Head.  No, his current ski is the Worldcup GS.  It was Fischer's FIS complliant ski back in the '04-'05 season which means it was around a 21M, but I'm not sure at what length.  At a 173, from what I can see on various radius calculators, it looks to be around an 18M ski.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utahski View Post


There's a lot of good stuff being made now. Some of our masters women are on 170's, some on 180's, with 175 probably most common. At a fairly strong 170lbs your son should be on a 180 at least. At that length the "cheaters" are usually 18-19R. The Rossi Hero that ScotsSkier mentioned I believe comes in a few different radii, one of them being 21 or so at that length.

I was thinking he might handle a 180 length too.  He does ski on some 178 Fischer RC4 WC's when we train out west, but those are different courses than what we see here.  He's definitely ready to step up from the 173 length :)

post #10 of 25

There are a lot of great skis in this category. Based on how you describe things, my hunch is that he'd like most of them more than his current skis, and I'd venture that he'll be faster on the clock as well. 

 

The advice to look for an adult ski, with a real race construction, is what I'd echo. I'd look at 178cm-180cm skis. I wouldn't get too hung up on whether the radius is 17 or 21. It's not going to feel like a SL ski, and it's going to feel and ski better than his current skis. He's on a junior ski, and it's got a lot of miles on it. 

 

I've skied the Atomic, and it's one of my favorites. Hard to go wrong with that ski. I know guys who have literally tried the entire category, some who have pretty much tested all of them against the clock, and have their own preferences. And I know guys who swore by one cheater ski a generation ago {like 5 years ago}, and don't love the latest version of the same ski. Serious personal preference among a lot of good ones. I know guys who loved the first Fischers, and hate the new ones. I could give you examples of pretty much every ski. I'll say it again. I think as a category, they're all good. This will be  personal preference thing for your son, and might boil down to availability, both to demo and buy. I have see guys tie themselves in knots trying to perfect this, and it's useless. 

 

I've had three pairs of Head i.speeds. All 180cm. The first ones were not the best, but they were given to me. I bought a nearly new pair of 2012-3 from ScotsSkier, and they were a much better ski. Less of a 2X4, and a great ski.  I picked up an new pair last year, and I think the ski's even better now. I've skied the ski in a 175cm length, and I didn't think it skied as well. Nothing to do with the 5cm difference in length. Some skis just seem to be a better design in a certain length and I think this is one. I bet it was designed to be a 180cm. Turn radius is allegedly 18M. Can make a lot of turn shapes. Pretty beefy layup, much nicer feel and flex than generation one. Or at least the case with my two most recent pairs. I don't know anybody who doesn't like the more recent skis. 

 

I'm 5'10", 200 lbs, but I'm 60. I have an extensive background in the sport, but I'm not a kid. 

 

My brother skis the Atomic, and also the Head.  He's smaller than I am, and I think it's a toss-up for him.  I've had recent versions of the Fischer, and Dynastar. I prefer the Head, by a bit. I also am very impressed with the Atomic as mentioned, and spent a morning on the Rossi, and that did the job very well. The one ski that didn't do it for me is the Nordica, and it could have been a bad pair. Felt like I overpowered it. Confusing? Yes.

 

Regardless of the ski, I'd look at the 178cm-180cm size slot. I don't think you can go wrong with starting with the Atomic, Head, or Rossi. And no doubt there are big Blizz, Fischer and Nordica fans. And Dynastar, Elan, Stockli.............The real "cheater", real race layup category just has a lot of good ones. 

 

It's probably the ONLY category of skis where I feel pretty confident that there aren't any bad choices. 

 

Good luck and hope he has fun trying a few. 

post #11 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski View Post
 

.......

My brother skis the Atomic, and also the Head.  He's smaller than I am, and I think it's a toss-up for him.  I've had recent versions of the Fischer, and Dynastar. I prefer the Head, by a bit. I also am very impressed with the Atomic as mentioned, and spent a morning on the Rossi, and that did the job very well. The one ski that didn't do it for me is the Nordica, and it could have been a bad pair. Felt like I overpowered it. Confusing? Yes.

 

Regardless of the ski, I'd look at the 178cm-180cm size slot. I don't think you can go wrong with starting with the Atomic, Head, or Rossi. And no doubt there are big Blizz, Fischer and Nordica fans. And Dynastar, Elan, Stockli.............The real "cheater", real race layup category just has a lot of good ones. 

 

It's probably the ONLY category of skis where I feel pretty confident that there aren't any bad choices. 

 

Good luck and hope he has fun trying a few. 

 

Interesting observation MS.  One of the Masters down in Chile with us was on the 184 (?) Nordica cheater  tweener ski and found exactly the same thing.  That is one of the things which helped me realize that while some folk may think of them as "cheaters) they are really built for lighter U16s.  Hence the folding up at the tip and overpowering.  You really need to do your due diligence with these. (and that goes for all brands!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainKirk View Post

The Rossi skis not only change in radius, but in construction too. The 16 and 18 meter versions are fairly soft skis, while the 21 has more beef. The 23M has basically the same construction as the 30/35 FIS skis, so it takes some effort to get it thorough a really tight set, but it has a lot more horsepower than the shorter versions.


Exactly Captain!  While Rossi has done a really good job in providing a range of lengths/radii with this series, I would be very hesitant to put a 170#  skier on anything less than the 180/21 to avoid overpowering them.  

post #12 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post
 

 

Interesting observation MS.  One of the Masters down in Chile with us was on the 184 (?) Nordica cheater  tweener ski and found exactly the same thing.  That is one of the things which helped me realize that while some folk may think of them as "cheaters) they are really built for lighter U16s.  Hence the folding up at the tip and overpowering.  You really need to do your due diligence with these. (and that goes for all brands!)


 

The tweener Nordica's must be a lot softer than the GSR cheaters.  My 182 GSR cheaters are quite burly and will either thrust you out of turns or buck you off the back.  We have a new guy running our Thursday night leagues who seems to like tossing in a couple good crankers which they really don't like to comply with.  My eyes are set on the Volkl or Rossi Master for next year as they are supposed to be a little more compliant which will be a big help trying to get clean arcs on a shallow/slow nastar hill.  If I was racing masters, the GSR would still be killer.

post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailtrimmer View Post
 

The tweener Nordica's must be a lot softer than the GSR cheaters.  My 182 GSR cheaters are quite burly and will either thrust you out of turns or buck you off the back.  We have a new guy running our Thursday night leagues who seems to like tossing in a couple good crankers which they really don't like to comply with.  My eyes are set on the Volkl or Rossi Master for next year as they are supposed to be a little more compliant which will be a big help trying to get clean arcs on a shallow/slow nastar hill.  If I was racing masters, the GSR would still be killer.

 

 

I picked up a pair of NOS Rossi 9GS 'cheaters' a couple seasons ago.  They were great for starting out on the NASTAR course but as my skills improved I seem to be overpowering them.  Not that my skills are that great, but I'm a big guy (215) and getting faster every season.  I'm way faster on my Head iGS 23M  WC's, but we always have a cranker both before and after a flat.  Normally I can set up for these and stay hooked up, but occasionally someone will get creative (mean, LOL?) and set the crankers a little short with an offset WAY out there.  I don't yet have the skill to bend the 23's enough in these super-crankers, at least not 100% of the time.  I just found some '15 Rossi Hero Master 180/21's on clearance (last pair) and will give them a thorough flogging and report back soon.

post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ventura View Post
 

 

 

I picked up a pair of NOS Rossi 9GS 'cheaters' a couple seasons ago.  They were great for starting out on the NASTAR course but as my skills improved I seem to be overpowering them.  Not that my skills are that great, but I'm a big guy (215) and getting faster every season.  I'm way faster on my Head iGS 23M  WC's, but we always have a cranker both before and after a flat.  Normally I can set up for these and stay hooked up, but occasionally someone will get creative (mean, LOL?) and set the crankers a little short with an offset WAY out there.  I don't yet have the skill to bend the 23's enough in these super-crankers, at least not 100% of the time.  I just found some '15 Rossi Hero Master 180/21's on clearance (last pair) and will give them a thorough flogging and report back soon.

Very much looking forward to the report, hoping I don't have to figure out a way to launder another pair of skis past the spousal unit.  :D

post #15 of 25

Just a quick note to mention my 180 R21 Hero Masters are at Ski MD for a race tune.  I have skied them once just to check them out but as is the norm, the factory 'tune' was not adequate for racing. 

 

In comparison to the R19 9GS 'cheaters', the '15 Master is a marginally narrower at the waist and definitely more narrow at tip and tail.  It is a stiffer, beefier ski than the 9GS- exactly what I'm looking for now.  The Masters appear to be built up thicker at the tip and tail but similar build at the waist.  First impression is that they are slightly stiffer than my FIS iGS R23 Heads.  

 

I read a review from one of the robo-review sites and the 175cm Rossi Master was rated as a little wimpy vs. a Nordica.  Maybe the shorter version has a different build but if similar to the 180cm Master, I don't think that reviewer actually skied them.  If anything, the Rossi Masters feel like I really need to stand on them in a turn & I'm a bit more stout in build than the average racer.  A very good league run for me is around a 17-18 handicap, so I'm not blazing fast but am doing ok enough to work a decent ski.  More to report later once the tune is ready...

Quote:
Originally Posted by trailtrimmer View Post
 

Very much looking forward to the report, hoping I don't have to figure out a way to launder another pair of skis past the spousal unit.  :D

 

Gave the 21M Rossi Masters a few runs today.  Lots of free skiing and a few timed runs in the course.  I have them set up with Axial WC's 16 DIN and 4mm risers on the plates.  The Masters are pretty much what I was expecting- somewhere between my cheaters and a full-on WC 23M ski.  By comparison, also much stiffer than a Volkl Speedwall, maybe as stiff or stiffer than some WC GS skis I have tried. 

 

Conditions today were VERY soft and prone to ruts.  The 21M Rossi Masters were surprisingly forgiving in the mush yet I definitely needed to stand on them significantly harder than my cheaters require to keep the turns clean. 

 

I didn't have much wax left after a lot of free skiing in the am but was still a little faster than some of my friends who usually beat me by a little.  For me the Masters seem to be a perfect progression as the next ski up from a 19M cheater.  Very happy with them and crossing my fingers for temps to drop so I can try them out on some boiler plate now that I have a proper tune.

 

Color scheme is mostly a flat or maybe satin black- perfect for stealth mode LOL.

post #16 of 25

My R18 Heros were in really bad shape from the factory.

post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

My R18 Heros were in really bad shape from the factory.

My 9GS skis were bad from the factory as well.  You really can't judge the skis until they have a proper tune- it's like night and day.

 

I have also learned to check for myself all the screws / bolts and binding settings on new skis.  One shop (not where I go now) left a front plate partially loose and had my forward pressure cranked in way too much for the boot I left with them.  Surprising how a loose front plate really isn't very evident except when you try to turn that ski.

post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

My R18 Heros were in really bad shape from the factory.



Was that you at NASTAR at Nubs yesterday?  I had my bases reset to a .7 from a 1 on my Nordica's and hated it. I was hoping they would engage a little faster which they did, but I couldn't roll them up on edge enough to generate the force I needed to get them to stick on hard snow before they wanted to slide.  I can see how it would be helpful on a steeper course, just wasn't what I needed on Birch or pretty much any shallow pitched nastar run.  I went from single digits to 12's like normal to not being able to get below a 13 and breaking out.  I had Pat re-grind the base to a 1 degree that afternoon.

Thanks for the update Ventura, I found a smoking deal on some 175's and I'll be giving them a try when they get here. (with a 1/3 tune) My home hill for leagues has been setting much tighter courses this year, I'm kicking myself for not keeping my Volkl 175's, but at least a team mate has them so they are in the family.

 

post #19 of 25


This is me and I was there.

Only my second time out after a several year loss of interest in gates.

That hill was like rock yesterday and I was a bit intimidated.

The course was a bit different too.

Near straight at the top, then a couple of crankers then a flush that could put you into the timing shack if you blew it.

I couldn't hold my line or hit my marks very well but I improved each run and started to get some mojo back.

The big dogs were there and it was fun to watch some 5 handicap runs.

My best was a 19 but I left a lot on the table.

I need more confidence to get down into the red zone and clip some gates.

Regardless of tune, when the snow is that hard you need an awful lot of edge angle to hold your line.

The 0.5/3 tune hooks up awfully quick and makes it hard to really stand on them with confidence.

I'm hoping I will get better at skiing this way and will wait a bit before trying a less aggressive tune.

post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

 

 

The 0.5/3 tune hooks up awfully quick and makes it hard to really stand on them with confidence.

 

 

That was exactly my problem, even the .3 change was huge and exacerbated on the boilerplate.  Normally Stan and I go back and fourth and are within .2 of one another, we even tied earlier this season.

Bummed as it blew my goal of being in the top 5 at two resorts in the same day.  Should have left them alone. :)

I'll be back up for NASTAR once more and probably the super G on Sno Pro.  Look for a  green helmet, orange jacket or blue/white/star suit, I also answer to Glen. :)

post #21 of 25

Couple more thoughts on the Rossi Masters...

 

One of our fastest night league guys also just picked up a pair of the 180 R21 Hero Masters.  I can't remember, but I think he used to run an older pair of RC Fischers.  Anyway, he's extremely pleased with the Rossi Masters and by the numbers looks to be faster on the new boards.

 

I went back to the 9GS Rossi's yesterday, as a comparison to the day before on the Masters.  Even though I had very good wax on the 9GS's and made some very aggressive gate bashing runs, I was almost 3% slower (~+3 handicap) vs. the Masters from the day before.  Also in a suit with practice shorts yesterday, vs. close fitting pants and jacket when trying out the Masters.  The clincher is that I was once again slightly slower than my friends I had beat the day before.   

post #22 of 25

The course was smoking fast.

I thought we might see a rare sub 20 second time on the yellow but Phil's best was 20.04.

The cap time for that hill is in the 19's depending on conditions.

Fritz nailed the green course but even he had a hard time on the yellow boilerplate and couldn't beat Phil.

Educational.

Phil is really skiing strong on his rebuilt knee and his pacesetter handicap may be a bit high.

post #23 of 25

Volkl Speedwall GS  180 cm  r 19.1   I have had great results on this ski. I am 63, 5' 7"  159 lbs. I am an old broken down ski instructor, these are the best GS I have had. Worth every penny.

post #24 of 25

Rossi Masters is a great ski (Black one) with enough stiffness it skis a lot better than a typical "cheater" ski.  That being said I found it didn't feel as quick edge to edge compared to my Head iGS RDs (23m) nor arc a turn as well on hardpack.  The Head iGS really comes alive with some speed (doesn't need huge speed however) where the Rossi is much easier to ski at lower speeds.

 

Rossi makes a great ski and I think got most things right for the target market they are going after with the Masters ski.

post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post
 

Rossi Masters is a great ski (Black one) with enough stiffness it skis a lot better than a typical "cheater" ski.  That being said I found it didn't feel as quick edge to edge compared to my Head iGS RDs (23m) nor arc a turn as well on hardpack.  The Head iGS really comes alive with some speed (doesn't need huge speed however) where the Rossi is much easier to ski at lower speeds.

 

Rossi makes a great ski and I think got most things right for the target market they are going after with the Masters ski.

I have a set of the iGS Heads and actually would prefer them over the Rossi Masters if I could keep them carving on some of the more creative sets we get.  Some days the course was very fast, with reasonable offset and no 'trick' turns.  Other days the next gate or two after the flat may be set WAY out there and I have trouble setting up a line that I can keep.  The Masters work well for me on such a course, but I'm lacking the skills to force a tighter arc on the iGS's.  Something to work on...

 

Anyway, I concur regarding your comparison of the two.

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